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So, on a whim tonight I tried making a space wolf list in Army Builder because I'd heard good things about them and my god man, SW seem crazy powerful! I am a long-time C:SM player but no one in my gaming group has Space Wolves. My question for you, is are the space wolves better than C:SM?

I ask because it seems like almost across the board SW get more for less points.

Some SW Pros I noticed:
-Special weapons in 5-man squads
-Bolter, bolt pistol, and ccw on all basic infantry!
-Counter-attack > combat tactics
-Long fangs are cheaper than devs and can split fire
-More effective RB spam
-Better psychic powers
-Ability to mix and match terminators
-Basic marines are 15 instead of 16 for C:SM

Some pros that C:SM still maintains:
-Sternguard
-Stand alone attack bikes
-Ironcladdread
-Vulkan
-MotF dread army
-Null zone
- LD +1 for sergeants

Clearly Codex marines have some perks, but it seems like they are outclassed by the wolves in almost every respect. I really hope I am just looking at this naively. Can someone set me straight?

I consider Tactical Marines better than Grey Hunters, but you have to focus on their strengths-- namely, heavy weapons, Combat Tactics, Combat Squads, Sergeants without an Elites slot/in a full Rhino squad, and so on.

The main pros that I see in Codex: Space Marines, aside from the above, are:

-Ability to take Bike Squads as Troops with a Captain on bike or Kor'sarro Khan
-Ability to take additional Dreadnoughts with a Master of the Forge
-Ability to take Scout Squads as Troops
-Ability to take Ironclad Dreadnoughts
-Ability to take Thunderfire Cannons
-Ability to take C:SM special characters (other than Chronus, who is not very good)
-Ability to take Sternguard squads, and even scoring Sternguard squads
-Better psychic powers
-Better Assault Terminators
-Better Land Raiders

Combat Squadding is very useful, Codex Marines can take Heavy Weapons, they also get 12 man Drop Pods, which allows for better combos with HQs.

They have TH+SS Terminators, which are some of the best models in the game, while SWs in Terminator armor are overcosted.

In general, I think Codex Marine HQs are better and buff their armies in more useful ways than SWs.

In general Codex Marines are more about synergy with their HQ, and SWs are more about the power of the individual model. Which is the fluff, so that's nice.

Overall I think SWs are a stronger list, but nothing to get concerned about. Standard Codex Creep.

But is it really better to have a heavy weapon in a tac squad?

Here is one comparison:

30 models, 3 flamers, 3 MLs:

C:SM
10xTac marines, flamer, ML
10xTac marines, flamer, ML
10xTac marines, flamer, ML

510 points

SW
10xGrey hunters, flamer
10xGrey hunters, flamer
6xGrey hunters, flamer
4xLong fangs, 3xML

480 points

Codex Marines get 3 sergeants with 2 Attacks and LD 9, as well as the possibility of splitting into 6 scoring units with combat squads

Space wolves get to be 30 points cheaper, have the heavies in a dedicated unit that can split fire, all their guys have 2 attacks plus counter-attack, and the two 10 man squads can get a bonus free plasma, melta, or flamer!

But the SW also have the option of fielding this:

5xGrey hunters, flamer
5xGrey hunters, flamer
5xGrey hunters, flamer
5xGrey hunters, flamer
5xLong fangs, 4x MLs

415 points!

25 models as 4 5-man flamer squads and a 4 ML long-fang squad for just 415 points! And that includes all the grey hunters having 2 base attacks and still leaves room for transports! The codex marines pay 95 more points to get one less missile, one less flamers, 14 fewer attacks, no counter-attack, but +1 LD!

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have more efficient units even if it took up a few more troops slots.

Kolath
I believe that space wolves are strightly stronger than codex marines for a couple of reasons.
grey hunters are stronger than codex marines
grey hunters are cheaper than codex marines
stronger special weapon options
stronger power weapon options
stronger wargear section
thunderwolves

They're both competitive. I think that a vulkan marine army properly constructed is stronger than a space wolves army without running thunderwolves, so if you don't have suitable models and don't want to buy them.... experience is best though so try it out!
AF

Long Fangs have one big weakness, which is that they don't score. Tactical Squads with heavy weapons do.

Well, I wonder how the new BA fit into this comparison.

Some BA Pros:
-Special weapons in 5-man Assault squads
-Assault squads on foot get big discount for a transport
-Effective RB spam, similar to SW
-Furious charge, FNP, and fearless units
-Honor Guard, Terminators with FNP
-Jump packers have DoA special rule
-Sternguard, still.
-Fast vehicles
-Deep striking Landraiders, Landraiders do not fill HS slots
-Librarian Furiosos

In my opinion it is the Wolf Standard upgrade for the grey hunters that really pushes Space Wolves far beyond regular marines in terms of combat abilities. For ten points you get to re-roll all ones in a single assault phase. This means you re-roll ones for difficult and dangerous terrain tests, number of attacks for mark of the Wolfen, to hit, to wound, Armor save, and for sweeping advance. Most Assaults are decided in one turn, and the wolf standard gives you a huge bonus. The armor save rerolls give your troops only slightly less protection than terminator armor (6/36 vs 8/36). And it is only 10 points so it is nearly mandatory.

Most assaults are decided in one turn and the boost that this can give you is huge. SW can shoot you dead, and if you charge them they can fight you dead as well.

They lose a leadership, but there are many ways around it, not just the wolf guard, but many of the HQ's allow for re-rolling leadership.

Grey Hunters are definitely a lot better than Tactical Marines in melee combat. However, that just means Space Marine armies have to focus on different things.

Hmm... but it seems like they are better than tactical marines at shooting too! I would much rather have two five man squads that can move and shoot and each have a melta gun than have a heavy weapon with 4 ablative wounds that has to stand still.

Space Wolves really AREN'T mega powerful.

Sure Grey Hunters can take two assault weapons.

Long Fangs are cheaper than Devastators or Havocs. and can split their fire.

Blood Claws get extra extra attack if charging.

You get thunderwolf cavalry......

BUT

Terminators are GROSSLY OVERPRICED

No way to get invulnerable save on Wolf Priest or Rune Priest (without using psyker power for Rune Priest)

VERY easy to overspend on HQ and Elites and leave nothing for troops.

Kolath
the heavy weapon in the marine squad is kind of a red herring. Generally it's better to move and shoot than it is to stand still and shoot; since the grey hunters can move and shoot to full effectiveness while the marines have to sit still to shoot to full effectiveness, the grey hunters are more flexible. They're also stronger in close combat. They also are cheaper. To my thinking there's not much comparison, grey hunters are where it's at. The only thing codex marines have going for them over grey hunters is chapter tactics - We run away, fear us!!! or the SC options, which, except for vulkan, are ok but not great.
AF

Corennus, the Wolf Priest has a 4++ save just as the vanilla Chaplin and the Rune Priest can get an Artificier Armour with 5++ for 20pts.

Codex marines have cost-efficient terminators, combat tactics/chapter tactics, combat squads, and Lysander.

Also, SW cannot drop 5+ meltaguns near a land raider for less than 300+ points. Vanilla Marines can do it for 185.

We got our perks, it is just not as apparent as others.

Artificer armor does not come with a 5++ in the C:SM, does it in SW codex?

It only applies to psychic powers.

our AA is 5 points cheaper and we already got a 4 up invul base.

Indeed. Its only inv against psy, but they can still get termie armour.
Vanilla Libbys does not have a 4++ save...

Rule of thumb ,"5th edition > 4th edition", If it wasn't written for this edition then the codex won't work as well as one that is. There can however often be things that break in favour of the older codex ... trouble is there are also lots things that don't.

Kolath wrote:Hmm... but it seems like they are better than tactical marines at shooting too! I would much rather have two five man squads that can move and shoot and each have a melta gun than have a heavy weapon with 4 ablative wounds that has to stand still.

Then play Space Wolves, I guess. I find the split of one squad with special weapon/combi-weapon and one with heavy weapon to be much better, so I play Space Marines.

Fetterkey wrote:Long Fangs have one big weakness, which is that they don't score. Tactical Squads with heavy weapons do.

I'd like to add another Pro to the list of C:SM, but in a different way.

Long Fangs are considered Heavy Support, so I only think that it's fair to compare them to a like unit. While they can split fire, their BIGGEST weakness, IMHO, is the fact that they only have 6 members mostl in the unit, which means the first casualty they take is going to be a heavy weapon or the Sgt. The C:SM Devastator Squad, while can be more expensive, have their 5 man cushion. So at least, they'd have to take at least 6 wounds before risking either the Sgt or a Heavy Weapon to make a save or eat a wound. I think in the end, the Devastator Squad would trump a Long Fang Squad, in simple terms of attrition. The less models in a squad, the quicker the unit will be killed.

But getting back to Tact Squads with Heavy Weapons, this is where the ability to Combat Squad gaps the difference between Tact Marines and Grey Hunters. SW are a much more melee intensive army, with good shooting capabilities and an average range of available weapons. SM, while lacking in CC in comparison, are just as capable at shooting, and have a much wider range of available weapons. Combat Squading the Heavy Weapon in one squad, while the Sgt and Special Weapon push forward in another squad, is the biggest inherit strength in Combat Squading. With this strategy, you have the potential to shoot the Heavy Weapon every turn, while still being able meet opposition head on with another.

I'm a C:SM player, and have played against SW before. They are indeed very competitive, and in the beginning, I had a hard time dealing with them. But like any game, with more experience against any player/army, you learn to adapt tactics and change strategy when the time is needed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fetterkey wrote: I find the split of one squad with special weapon/combi-weapon and one with heavy weapon to be much better, so I play Space Marines.

QFT. My exact sentiments with C:SM

SM and SW are both viable and competitive as are all 5th edition armies but you can tell that when they wrote the SW codex they fixed somethings in the SM codex that weren't too popular because they were points inefficient like the devastators, special weapon load outs on basic troopers, scouts and the prices on special HQ's. I think blood angles did some of the same stuff with vanguard vets, assault squads devastators again. The two newer MEQ codex's play differently that vanilla but only slightly edge it out by fixing point costs or tweaking weak special rules here and there.

imo vulkan is the only thing that makes codex marines viable. the other chapter tactics options are ok but making a really competitive army out of them would be quite a challenge...

You say that alot abaddon. What kind of tournament experience do you have?

I'd say this is much more of an accurate picture of the C:SM than your constant naysaying:

cromwest wrote:The two newer MEQ codex's play differently that vanilla but only slightly edge it out by fixing point costs or tweaking weak special rules here and there.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:imo vulkan is the only thing that makes codex marines viable. the other chapter tactics options are ok but making a really competitive army out of them would be quite a challenge...

Are you seriously saying Librarians are not competition-worthy?

Or Lysander, the best beatstick the codex has, as well as making the ENTIRE army a tarpit?

Or shrike, who hands out fleet like it is candy?

Maybe our areas are different, but the best lists I have seen are usually shrike or librarian based.

I really like Combat Tactics: the combination with And They Shall Know No Fear really lets Space Marines use Heavy Weapons in a close-support role. Lack of Combat Tactics makes Space Wolves much more vulnerable to enemy Walkers, as well as more vulnerable to incoming enemy fire. Sure, they're more effective in close combat, but you don't have to assault them, and they have a short effective range.

I've been getting some decent mileage out of closing to point blank range and using Flamers in preference to charging with Tactical Marines - why give the enemy a free round of assault when you can put more wounds on them using Rapid Fire Bolters and templates? If they charge, then duck out of the fight, rinse/repeat.

Another problem that Space Wolves face, which is generally under-exploited thanks to the prevalence of Fearless (despite Tau, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, Necrons, and even Orks being vulnerable), is pinning. They're excellent targets for Space Marine Sniper Scouts thanks to their relatively low Leadership, particularly after the Wolf Guard has been shot down by Telion. Sergeant Telion is great for popping Space Wolf specialists (as well as specialists in any unit).

Likewise the Space Wolves don't have someone like Cato Sicarius, with Rites of Battle and so on. Many people are hung up on Vulkan He'stan, but his effect on a Space Marine army basically makes them more effective at optimal range (within 12") while depriving them of the Combat Tactics that make them efficient at that range. Similarly other Special Characters like Tigurius, Calgar, Khan, and Shrike add utility to the entire army's strategic capability without strait-jacketing them in the same predictable configuation and static positioning.

People like to talk about the ability of Long Fangs to split their fire between two targets via Fire Control, so long as the Squad Leader is alive and doesn't himself shoot at anything. Thanks to Combat Squads, a Devastator Squad can not only split fire between two targets, they can split incoming fire between two targets, which combined with Combat Tactics makes them far more robust.

Space Marine Techmarines are Independent Characters, meaning that they can do things like join squads of Tactical Marines in their extra-spacious Land Raiders and Drop Pods, or stiffen the spine of a Thunderfire Cannon battery.

Wolf Lords don't come with an integral Iv4+ thanks to an Iron Halo and have to purchase them for extra via a Belt of Russ, and they don't do useful things like enable you to take a Command Squad.

Dracos
I'm not claiming any extensive tournament experience. I'm claiming the ability to read a battle report, a codex, or an army list and to intuit the basic reasons why someone won or lost a game. I play codex marines, blood angels, and chaos space marines, occasionally demons, against strong space wolves, guard and sisters opponents. I act like I know what I'm talking about when it comes to those armies because I do.

Sorry if you feel like I'm naysaying...
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother-Thunder wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:imo vulkan is the only thing that makes codex marines viable. the other chapter tactics options are ok but making a really competitive army out of them would be quite a challenge...

Are you seriously saying Librarians are not competition-worthy?

Or Lysander, the best beatstick the codex has, as well as making the ENTIRE army a tarpit?

Or shrike, who hands out fleet like it is candy?

Maybe our areas are different, but the best lists I have seen are usually shrike or librarian based.

No.... the librarian is good, no doubt. So is lysander. It's not that they aren't good. It's that I don't think they can turn the whole codex into a rampaging death machine.... the way it ought to be
AF

Vulkan is a great character, he brings TL and master crafted weapons for every one: on top of that he has a heavy flamer, a MC Relic blade and most importantly a 3+ inv. The only thing he is missing, to be perfect, is eternal warrior.

That said you do not need to take him to have a winning SM army. I've seen: scout armies with Shrike, Six-dreads with a master of the forge, Lysander for a stubborn army (personlly i don't like that but I've seen it work) or Cassius for a cheap HQ that really last longer then he should. There are many ways that SM can be made to grind the enemy into dirt, SM are versatile.

Then again if you're list already has little else but flamers, metlas, and thunder hammers you can't go wrong with vulkan.

cromwest wrote:SM and SW are both viable and competitive as are all 5th edition armies but you can tell that when they wrote the SW codex they fixed somethings in the SM codex that weren't too popular because they were points inefficient like the devastators, special weapon load outs on basic troopers, scouts and the prices on special HQ's. I think blood angles did some of the same stuff with vanguard vets, assault squads devastators again. The two newer MEQ codex's play differently that vanilla but only slightly edge it out by fixing point costs or tweaking weak special rules here and there.

Okay. I'll buy that. Makes sense. I just wish they would errata some of the more annoying things in C:SM. Actually I wish they would errata things in general to tweak balance, but that is another discussion.

Nah as it stands SM has plenty of solid builds like Vulkan marines, Mech marines and Bike marines. The space marines really don't need much of a buff as there is more than enough units in the codex to make up for the ones that no ever uses. We still have enough builds that we aren't like chaos space marines where every list starts looking the same and opponents know exactly what there in for every time.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:grey hunters are stronger than codex marines

Yeah, yeah, here we go again...
I'll just say one thing: I would murder to get cheap or free Heavys for my objective sitting Hunters and the option to combat squad which would mean that I only needed to buy 1 squad for both objective holding AND advancing instead of buying 2 separate units which will just increase the mass of easy to gain KP, if you want to keep you objective sitting squad cheap while Tacs can be left at their maximum strength if you need to play a KP based mission.

grey hunters are cheaper than codex marines

Okay, they're one 1 (!!1111!) point cheaper, but in comparison: SW PF/SS Termi: 58 pts. / SM TH/SS Termi: 40 pts.

stronger special weapon options

Exactly the same as the SM got. Ok, we can always take one Special but if our Hunters want a 2nd one we'll be sacrificing an effective PF and will run around with LS 8...
If we take a Sergeant to get rid of these problems we'll sacrifice both an elite slot AND the 2nd Special. Tacs and Hunters are in the end equal in this regard, ignoring the fact that Tacs will get 1 Special, the Sarge AND a Heavy in a 10 men squad without sacrificing any additional slots.

stronger power weapon options

...won't win you the game. Really, C:SM have no reason to complain if you consider how cheap the Relic Blade/SS Combo is. It's 145 for a RB/SS captain while a Wolf Lord with Frost Blade and SS costs 155 pts. The Captain is however running around with S6 and not S5. If you ment the Wolf Claws you should consider that their power boost is not for free, they cost 5 pts. more than a SM Lightning Claw, same goes for the Frost Blade (which is inferior to a Relic Blade).

stronger wargear section

Which is more or less equal to what the one Vanillas got, considering that most of the options are either the same or certain pieces of must have equipment like SS are horribly overpriced or not even available, especially the lack of SS for Priests of every kind hurts. To be honest, the only things which are not over priced in the HQ section and are actually worth it are the Wolf Tooth Necklace, the talisman and the choser of the slain. The rest including Sagas is quite expensive pts wise (our lords even need to pay 25 pts. just to get the 4++ save which Captains get for free).

thunderwolves

Vs. cheap TH/SS Termies, Sternguard, Ironcads or Furiosos with Blood Talons etc. . BAs even get Monsters like Mephiston or the Sanguinor or FnP/FC in every squad (and also all the C:SM goodies like cheap TH/SS Termies or Sternguard). Really, if it was not for the thunderwolves, the SW codex would absolutely suck in comparison to the other 5.ed Marine Dexes, which dish out hard as nails assault units like hell, while SW would utterly lack a viable CC counter assault option against hard targets like Swarmlords or Nob Bikerz. Without the Mount our CC HQs would be outclassed in every way by the other marine dexes which got ways more effective and cheaper unique characters (Lysander, Vulkan, Mephiston, Cassius etc. ...) and cheaper ICM which deliver exactly the same (sometimes even better) as the SW versions do AND are cheaper. One exception is Psychic Defense, but for that we sacrifice the SS option for our priest and powers like the Blood Lance, Shield, Null Zone or the Gate of Infinity. Compared to Bloodcrushers which cost 10 pts. less the Thunderwolf-Cav is still overpriced crap (they can be instant killed, got WS4, rending instead of PWs, no Inv. etc.) ;P.