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Sgt.Sunshine wrote:So after a quick read is the latest consensus that C:SM are the better all-comers army?

Blood Angels and Space Wolves are both stronger than Codex
AF

That is a little too simplistic.

C:SM can get HS dreadnoughts, they get Ironclads, biker troops, and their LR and drop pods can hold more guys.

Oh and cheaper TH/SS termies. Though I think the BA dex was correct in making TH/SS cost points.

putting feel no pain and furious charge on every single guy in the army more than makes up for paying an extra 5 points for an assault terminator or not being able to take ironclads. They dont need bikes they have jump packs. For spacewolves again they dont need bikes or terminators they have thunderwolves which do the job of both.
AF

The point isn't that marines get bikes. The point is that they get bike TROOPS. BA priests aren't troops (though the assault marines are). Thunderwolves aren't troops. While a marine player can make an entire army themed/centered around bikes, a wolf player cannot.

Also the priest is most vulnerable where the BA are best: assault. You get singled out, especially by that opponent that goes before you with a power weapon, and your whole squad just lost FNP, which really is their biggest asset. After that you're no more reliable than a marine. Armies with multiple crack missiles or battle cannons can also laugh at your FNP, and again you're back to being as resilient as a marine, just costing more. If you play an opponent that can out maneuver you (Eldar mainly) you are trouble as an angles player because, stacking up on priests, you probably don't have too much long range fire.

Everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. Again, C:SM are just more variable than the other two marine chapters. You have so many more options that can still be effective and can create some rather impressive armies.

the thunderwolves can consistently run down the bikes. You wouldnt think based on their stats but a 12" charge range can be pretty decisive on a 4x6 board. I play bikes I've seen it happen many times.

If you're charging you can decide where the sanguinary priest goes - jus dont let him near a power weapon and he should be ok. sometimes they die. oh well. Feel no pain isn't an invulnerability potion - it just means you can ignore anything lighter than a plasmagun. for what a priest costs I'll take it.You dont need long range fire power you're mobile and you deep strike. Wherever they are, that's where you deep strike.

Sure you can create good armies out of codex marines. dont disagree with that at all.
AF


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BA assault marines are troops like you said. thunderwolves aren't but you can take some pretty small grey hunter squads that are. Its a small drawback but really the only time being a troop matters is when the game ends. If you wipe or get wiped before then your place on the FOC doesnt really matter.

Space Marines do have their share of advantages over Space Wolves.

Their special characters can be force multipliers. Pedro Kantor's +1 attack bubble and stubborn can be really amazing. Khan outflanking scoring bikers is pretty mean with the current tendency towards mechanized forces. Shrike infiltrating fleeting assault terminators is also something to be feared. Vulkan which everyone takess twin links weapons and makes thunder hammers master crafted.

Space Marines get the cheap Assault terminators with thunder hammer stormshield. Blood Angels slightly more and Space Wolves pay even more. Thunder wolf deathstars don't really hold up to well to assault terminators given only 1 powerfist/hammer on regular thunder wolf units and if your talking characters on thunderwolves the cost suddenly goes sky high and you better hope you bought saga of the bear.

Space Marines ability to combat squad also allows them to get more scoring units for objectives missions and have less kill points if the mission is kill points.

Do not mention Khan. he is such a nub.

Avariel
I agree they have their strong points.... not trying to take that away from them.

Fetterkey wrote:I wouldn't say so. Both armies are viable in an all-comers tournament environment; in fact, the current trends seem to slightly favor Space Wolves over Space Marines. That said, Space Marines have a wider variety of possible builds than Space Wolves.

This....

The problems with comparing Thunder Wolves to Terminators or Bikes it the total lack of Firepower.
Terminators:
-A Thunderwolf Cavalry unit at 200 points is you get 4 naked armed with Bolt Pistols, 5 cost you 250
-To add a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield will run you a 310 and any think with a AP of 3 will chew you up and spit you out even with creative would allocation.
-To make yourselves as resilient as a Terminator Assault squad with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields it bring you up to 430 points and you have no ranged weapons.

Vs. Bikes
-You have all of the Speed in the world and Fleet, cool, but you have no Twin Linked Bolt Guns, no access to Melta-Guns or a Multi-Melta. No ability to harass your target from the flanks, you have to get “Stuck In” to be any good.

Anpu42 wrote:The problems with comparing Thunder Wolves to Terminators or Bikes it the total lack of Firepower.
Terminators:
-A Thunderwolf Cavalry unit at 200 points is you get 4 naked armed with Bolt Pistols, 5 cost you 250
-To add a Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield will run you a 310 and any think with a AP of 3 will chew you up and spit you out even with creative would allocation.
-To make yourselves as resilient as a Terminator Assault squad with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields it bring you up to 430 points and you have no ranged weapons.

Vs. Bikes
-You have all of the Speed in the world and Fleet, cool, but you have no Twin Linked Bolt Guns, no access to Melta-Guns or a Multi-Melta. No ability to harass your target from the flanks, you have to get “Stuck In” to be any good.

you just need 1 storm shield in the squad. another on a lord and some wise wound allocation and you'd be surprised how hard these guys are to kill. you dont need a thunderhammer drop that. You're already about as resilient as a terminator squad (not counting invulnerables) since the dif. between tn 4 and 5 is about the same as the dif in armor 3 and 2. 1 or 2 3++ saves on a multi wound model will probably do you more good in the long run than a bunch of 5++ saves on single wound models. Twin linked bolt guns don't make a whole lot of difference. It's true that they don't have melta weapons but you can have other squads in the army (grey hunters for instance) do that. I don't know what harassing is but it doesnt should very aggressive. Go for the throat. Kill. Maim. Burn. Bikes aren't very strong in close combat since they have just 1 attack a piece tot he thunderwolve's 5 + rending + stronger weapon options.
AF

TL Bolters do a lot of damage.
You use MSU bikers, therefore it will not be that way.
You also use Vulkan and spam special weapons.

Both of those skew your opinions so much it (I will hazard) is quite baised for what you seem to present as a 'general statement' on the subject of bolters.

Strength 10 AP-1 Pie or those Las Cannon armed Devistator Squads can rip you apart.
Once your Opponent has recived one of these Charging into his Army you are going to recive alot of Anti-Tank Weapons the next time you play them, One or Two Storm Shields won't cut it.
"Power Weapon" or Rending armed units will also chew them up.

Yes Bikes are not Close Combat Units, my point is Thunder Wolves can not be used the same as bikes.

sanct
I run msu precisely because bolters dont get the job I want done. twin linking the weapon is a 30% increase in effectiveness on a model that is about 80% more costly. Just from a weight of fire perspective bikers are even less capable of doing this than tacticals. Either you find my argumetns about bolters convincing or you dont. It's not really a big deal one way or another.

Anpu
str 10 ap 1 big blast yes they're a threat. they threaten everything. whatever the galaxy is a dangerous place... lascannon devestators no. they'll hit with 2 or 3 the storm shield will stop 1 or 2 at most you'll take 2 wounds from these guys. Not a very good return on such an expensive squad. Since the most those anti tank weapons can do is inflict a single wound, except for the ocassional str 10 ap 1 weapon, which become pretty dangerous to your own army at close range, the thunderwolves just dont have to be that concerned. they'll live.
AF

Sanctjud wrote:TL Bolters do a lot of damage.
You use MSU bikers, therefore it will not be that way.
You also use Vulkan and spam special weapons.

Both of those skew your opinions so much it (I will hazard) is quite baised for what you seem to present as a 'general statement' on the subject of bolters.

MSU is the key to really get the best value from bikers. I have found that the sheer amount of highly mobile special weapons you can cram onto those platforms is staggering, in addition to the heavy weapons and TL bolters (which are not to be dismissed)

While one biker unit would do squat vs thunderwolves, moving in 3 of such units will have a different impact, especially when supported with long range firepower.

Lysander will take on those wolves. Instant death all around!

Anyway. Yes thunderwolves are impressive and wreck just about everything in cc (except a BA dread, they have trouble with that). But they are such a huge cost and can be shot at from turn 1. The 12" charge is nice until you realize that anything that moves 12" and shoots (fast vehicles) will be constantly out of your charge range and still shooting you.

For the C:SM armory, you have vindicators as your main option. C:SM have fewer ways of dealing with thunderwolves, but again that's a huge amount of points that needs to be in cc, yet doesn't have a transport.

Also TWCs ability to kill vehicles is...not that impressive. Less because it almost relies on rending, more because you will usually be hitting 1 vehicle a turn. And 350 points to kill a rhino is not impressive.

TWC are impressively strong, and impressively difficult to deal with. But they are not impressively hard to avoid. Yes, huge charge range, we know. But you can move faster than them with any vehicle. Again I'm still just seeing the huge points tag and it really is diminishing their shinyness. Again Lysander would give them a go.

labmouse42 wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:TL Bolters do a lot of damage.
You use MSU bikers, therefore it will not be that way.
You also use Vulkan and spam special weapons.

Both of those skew your opinions so much it (I will hazard) is quite baised for what you seem to present as a 'general statement' on the subject of bolters.

MSU is the key to really get the best value from bikers. I have found that the sheer amount of highly mobile special weapons you can cram onto those platforms is staggering, in addition to the heavy weapons and TL bolters (which are not to be dismissed)

While one biker unit would do squad vs thunderwolves, moving in 3 of such units will have a different impact, especially when supported with long range firepower.

Agree


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Ail-Shan wrote:Lysander will take on those wolves. Instant death all around!

Anyway. Yes thunderwolves are impressive and wreck just about everything in cc (except a BA dread, they have trouble with that). But they are such a huge cost and can be shot at from turn 1. The 12" charge is nice until you realize that anything that moves 12" and shoots (fast vehicles) will be constantly out of your charge range and still shooting you.

For the C:SM armory, you have vindicators as your main option. C:SM have fewer ways of dealing with thunderwolves, but again that's a huge amount of points that needs to be in cc, yet doesn't have a transport.

Also TWCs ability to kill vehicles is...not that impressive. Less because it almost relies on rending, more because you will usually be hitting 1 vehicle a turn. And 350 points to kill a rhino is not impressive.

TWC are impressively strong, and impressively difficult to deal with. But they are not impressively hard to avoid. Yes, huge charge range, we know. But you can move faster than them with any vehicle. Again I'm still just seeing the huge points tag and it really is diminishing their shinyness. Again Lysander would give them a go.

ummm.... theres only so much board to run to. and alot of times you have to hold objectives you cant just back up ad infinatum.
you can't make your army out of nothing but thunderwolves dont get me wrong. you need some anti tank. not trying to overstate the case here. Is lysander strength 5? I thought he was 4.
AF

We have different experiences.
What works well for me is the opposite of your suggestions.

We can agree that different things work for different people and you will respond by saying that is a truism and I'm repeating myself.

Which confused me in the past when you had also continued to respond by saying it still sucks and are of the stance that you have the only viable opinion (much like so many other threads that have spiraled out of control).
______________

It's wierd, you think they suck, so on the flip side you are expecting much out of them. And yet they perform in their niche, much like special weapons perform well in their niches.
______________

On topic: If you want scoring bikers, C:SM > SW at the very least.

Ail-Shan wrote:Lysander will take on those wolves. Instant death all around!

Anyway. Yes thunderwolves are impressive and wreck just about everything in cc (except a BA dread, they have trouble with that). But they are such a huge cost and can be shot at from turn 1. The 12" charge is nice until you realize that anything that moves 12" and shoots (fast vehicles) will be constantly out of your charge range and still shooting you.

For the C:SM armory, you have vindicators as your main option. C:SM have fewer ways of dealing with thunderwolves, but again that's a huge amount of points that needs to be in cc, yet doesn't have a transport.

Also TWCs ability to kill vehicles is...not that impressive. Less because it almost relies on rending, more because you will usually be hitting 1 vehicle a turn. And 350 points to kill a rhino is not impressive.

TWC are impressively strong, and impressively difficult to deal with. But they are not impressively hard to avoid. Yes, huge charge range, we know. But you can move faster than them with any vehicle. Again I'm still just seeing the huge points tag and it really is diminishing their shinyness. Again Lysander would give them a go.

I agrre compleatly, pardon the bad pun, but TWC are a One Trick Pony. So are Lone Wolves, Feranisan Wolves and to a point Blood Claws [All Types].
They are very few Marine units that can not pull double duity.

@labmouse42/AF:

That is one way to play it, and I agree that it's efficient at getting more special weapons. It loses out on some flexibility with missions and mixing of the heavy and specials sometimes creates an awkward commitment range.

I'm sure everyone here who is mildly interested in bikers has read enough on the net to notice that MSU, Full Biker, or a mix of them all work well.

Sanctjud wrote:We have different experiences.
What works well for me is the opposite of your suggestions.

We can agree that different things work for different people and you will respond by saying that is a truism and I'm repeating myself.

Which confused me in the past when you had also continued to respond by saying it still sucks and are of the stance that you have the only viable opinion (much like so many other threads that have spiraled out of control).
______________

It's wierd, you think they suck, so on the flip side you are expecting much out of them. And yet they perform in their niche, much like special weapons perform well in their niches.
______________

On topic: If you want scoring bikers, C:SM > SW at the very least.

We do indeed have different experiences, and yes you have a different approach to the game. I'm not sure what it is exactly but you are definitely less concerned to win (bend them over the table and rape them, as you say) than I am.

But as you say back on topic. Yes if you just have to have scoring bikers codex marines is the way to go. There arent really any tactical reasons for this but if you want a theme army ofcourse thats better.
AF

SW have alot of shock lists and mech lists.
But Bikers play the Water game better than the SWs.

As I see it, SW's are on the extremes of melee and shooting, while Bikers SMurf bikers have both elements (wrt a more likely charge initiator/double tap).

Sanctjud wrote:SW have alot of shock lists and mech lists.
But Bikers play the Water game better than the SWs.

As I see it, SW's are on the extremes of melee and combat, while SMurfs have a careful balance between the two.

True to get a real balance list you need to build Hybrid List. Then you might as well go C: SM

C:SW can do hybrid builds just fine.

They have excellent long range firepower, they have no issues with numbers relative to other marine armies unless you just *have* to go with Logan+WG troops and Thunderwolves for your army, their troops are killier and cheaper, and they have access to all the same tanks and vehicles that SM's do aside from Thunderfire cannons and Ironclads.

C:SM is a bit more flexible in the types of lists you can make, but I have a hard time seeing how it matches C:SW in terms of raw power.

Lots of people point to TH/SS termis, but C:SW has far more flexible termi's, and you don't need to load a thunderhammer onto everyone, a powerfist or even a powerweapon will do along with only 2-3 stormshields per unit. If you utilize them more like C:CSM terminators, they work fantastically well. Hell, the whole book really feels like a C:CSM Undivided Mk2.

Vaktathi wrote:C:SM is a bit more flexible in the types of lists you can make, but I have a hard time seeing how it matches C:SW in terms of raw power.

Yes up Space Puppies can Achive exrimly silly levels of Fire Power, but beyond Grey Hunter and Long Fangs it cost an arm and a leg.

Anpu42 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:C:SM is a bit more flexible in the types of lists you can make, but I have a hard time seeing how it matches C:SW in terms of raw power.

Yes up Space Puppies can Achive exrimly silly levels of Fire Power, but beyond Grey Hunter and Long Fangs it cost an arm and a leg.

What more do you need? Between those two units you can outshoot many armies in the game and outfight them simultaneously. Wolf Guard offer some pretty awesome firepower if you want to kit them for it, and in terms of vehicles and tanks, they have pretty much identical selections to C:SM, again, save for TFC's and Ironclads.