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I am a Space Marine [Imperial] Player going back to 89.
I have played Vanilla and Vanilla Space Puppies since that time.
When the Space Wolf Codex came out in 2nd edition I was one of the 1st locals to play them.
Currently I play
-Vanilla Space Marine Shrike List
-10k+ of Space Wolves
-Dark Angels
-I am now looking into the Blood Angels Codex.
-Imperial Guard with some DH attached

These are my Observations: It is all Play Style
-If you are naturally inclined to play a very aggressive Assault style of army, Space Wolves are your best choice.
-If you are naturally inclined to play a very Gunline style of army, Codex: Space Marines are your best choice.

Just give your Space Wolf Army to your local Ork Player and he will charge across the field and not really have to adjust his style much, but give him a C: SM army and he will struggle with it.
The same goes with your local Tau Player, Give him a C: SM army and he will do good, but give him mthe same Space Wolf List that you gave the Ork Player and watch him get mauled.

I personally think those who fell Space Wolves are a more powerful army are either playing against people that have the feel for their Space Wolf Army better than most or maybe or if they play a Space Wolf Army have no found their inner Waaaag! yet.

I also have a Space Marine Player who I normally beat because he an Ork/Nid player at heart and plays a very Aggressive Marine Army vs. my Space Wolves and that is usually why he looses I think. He may finally be looking at the Blood Angels and I think that will fit him more.

Space Wolves Greater than Codex: Space Marines, for my Play Style: YES!

Hmm... but Anpu42, it seems like SW can outshoot C:SM in the gunline as well!

Vulkan is silly and boring. Everyone goes and finds some Vulkan list on the internet, copy pastes and goes and wins one game and thinks they're a fecking genius. Don't play Vulkan lists.

Take lib's. With gate. And sternguard.

^Well, you may not like Vulkan, but throwing around gay and raging all of a sudden seems out of place.

As for libby with gate and sternguard.... from the point of view from a player that always takes plasma cannons where available, that's as much of a gimmick as Vulkan lists...

Just to throw fuel on the fire, space wolves have their own version of combat tactics. It's called the razorback.
5 grey hunters, a special with the grey hunters, and a lascannon/twinlinked plasma razorback.

While you can take 5 space marines and a razor...the squad's kinda gimped because the squad can't take a special. I guess you can give the sergeant a combi-special.
It's just not the same.

My gaming group has been house-ruling to allow tacticals to take a special at 5 marines (at the standard cost of a 10-man squad special). It does improve the ability to do multiple small unit tactics, but the grey hunters still seem to do it better...

And what's this about putting wolf guard in grey hunter squads? I don't have the SW codex, just army-builder, and I didn't see an option to attach a terminator wolf guard to a grey hunter unit...

Kolath wrote:Hmm... but Anpu42, it seems like SW can outshoot C:SM in the gunline as well!

Yes and No

Yes: Gunline vs an Attacker I generaly have 1-2 turns of firing and by using my Wolf Standard I can arange a very powerful Counter Attack.

No: Two Gun Lines fighting each other: Tactical Space Marines can sit back 2" behined the "Starting Line" in most Pitch Battle set ups and just punch away with thier Heavy Weapons, Grey Hunters have to move and then they will still be out of range.

Sanctjud wrote:^Well, you may not like Vulkan, but throwing around gay and raging all of a sudden seems out of place.

As for libby with gate and sternguard.... from the point of view from a player that always takes plasma cannons where available, that's as much of a gimmick as Vulkan lists...

My bad. Just annoys me when Vulkan lists have become the most common and well known for competitive C:SM, people don't bother looking further, they just pick up Vulkanspam. Also many people seem to think vulkan lists are the end all of competitivity (is that a word) and the answer to any other list. Just wish people would think a bit for themselves instead of googling "space marine competitive list" then copypasting what they find.

I've seen space wolves gunlines using razorspam, and it horridly outshoots anything the marines comeup with.

It's a measly 150 points for a scoring razorback with a squad inside.

Kolath wrote:My gaming group has been house-ruling to allow tacticals to take a special at 5 marines (at the standard cost of a 10-man squad special). It does improve the ability to do multiple small unit tactics, but the grey hunters still seem to do it better...

And what's this about putting wolf guard in grey hunter squads? I don't have the SW codex, just army-builder, and I didn't see an option to attach a terminator wolf guard to a grey hunter unit...

The wolf guards options are in the elites slot, you have to take at least 3 and then you can assign as many of them as you want to other squads, they then become part of that squad, in effect a sergeant. So if you buy your WG TDA they can join a GH squad, but the squad can't get in a rhino then.

scuddman wrote:I've seen space wolves gunlines using razorspam, and it horridly outshoots anything the marines comeup with.

It's a measly 150 points for a scoring razorback with a squad inside.

True, But you have to take the Razorback to do Range War.
I "HATE" taking units to compete.

scuddman wrote:Just to throw fuel on the fire, space wolves have their own version of combat tactics. It's called the razorback.
5 grey hunters, a special with the grey hunters, and a lascannon/twinlinked plasma razorback.

While you can take 5 space marines and a razor...the squad's kinda gimped because the squad can't take a special. I guess you can give the sergeant a combi-special.
It's just not the same.

Or you can take 10 Space Marines and a Razor and split the squad into Combat Squads, which I do all the time.

scuddman wrote:I've seen space wolves gunlines using razorspam, and it horridly outshoots anything the marines comeup with.

It's a measly 150 points for a scoring razorback with a squad inside.

Space Marines can do the same sort of list, except with Null Zone, so ???

Fetterkey wrote:
Space Marines can do the same sort of list, except with Null Zone, so ???

Just because i wonder, why do the SW win the tournaments then?
I dont want to insult anyone im just nosy.

Cheers all and Blood Angels HUZZAH!

a) That list isn't really all that good in the first place
b) Space Wolves are easier to use

Angel
they win for a couple reasons.

Thunderwolves are very fast and very tough. Even the shootiest armies have trouble killing them before they start wrecking face, and even the assaultiest armies have trouble beating them in close combat. For what they cost they're really an awesome unit. Long Fangs with missile launchers can be used to blow your opponent out of their transports pretty fast. You can take alot of powerful close combat fighters for your HQs. Grey Hunters are a really good bargain. And your special and power weapon options are of course awesome. You have alot of attacks.

I dont think a gunline marine army has any chance whatever against the kind of spacewolves army I outlined above, as was earlier suggested.
AF

Jabbdo wrote:

Sanctjud wrote:^Well, you may not like Vulkan, but throwing around gay and raging all of a sudden seems out of place.

As for libby with gate and sternguard.... from the point of view from a player that always takes plasma cannons where available, that's as much of a gimmick as Vulkan lists...

My bad. Just annoys me when Vulkan lists have become the most common and well known for competitive C:SM, people don't bother looking further, they just pick up Vulkanspam. Also many people seem to think vulkan lists are the end all of competitivity (is that a word) and the answer to any other list. Just wish people would think a bit for themselves instead of googling "space marine competitive list" then copypasting what they find.

That's how I feel about BA RB spam.

What's worst is it's a BA version of the SW razor spam.

People are so unoriginal that they took a internet list and somehow made it more boring!

Also what you were talking about with Vulkan, I agree fullheartedly.

Mind you, it's pretty fun fielding a Rock to the internet spam list's Scissors and then seeing the look on the face of the poor sucker who was so sure of winning.

Hmm.... can you provide this rock?

I believe so. I also believe that virtually everyone else will reject its Rockiness and endorse its Paperness. But what else is new?

you should post it....
I wont say anything negative even if I disagree with your choices. I'm just really curious to see what youve got.
AF

I second (third?) that!

Third, I call first!


You can find the rock here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313288.page

Hmm, I like the idea, but that army doesn't necessarily beat razorspam.

Here's why: A basic razoback squad is 150 points. It's essentially las plas squads. It's very similar to ultramauleens. But, just like ultramauleens, the bulk of the damage comes from the other parts of the army. 5 razorbacks cost 750 points. From 1500 points up there is still plenty of points to put other things in. The razors just get around how meh tacticals are.

Although, I guess Nurglitch's army is good against Stelek's version of razorspam...where he takes one thing and maxes it out.

Smart razor players will do like hulksmash and start adding in other things.

On another note...I don't understand why people say it's bad. It's EXACTLY like dark eldar except the troopers are better and the razors aren't open-topped armor value 10 vehicles. That, and the lasplas razors put out more firepower than Dark Eldar raiders.

No army necessarily will beat another. Clearly there's all sorts of issues like mission, deployment, mission, and terrain that will affect the outcome, let alone the abilities of the players.

That said, if you just have five Razorbacks and fill the rest of the army up with other stuff, then I don't think you can really call it "spam".

Something else I should point out is that the army I offered isn't optimized to handle Razorback spam: Such optimization would require things like Twin-Linked Autocannons instead of Assault Cannons, but makes several concessions to the fact that there's other armies in the game.

But that's a strength of Codex Space Marines, in that it allows multi-configuration armies like this to function. A similar concept army I wrote up for someone else filled up the Elite spots with Techmarines, and gave it Thunderfire Cannons. The notion was that Techmarines are Independent Characters in Codex: Space Marines, and so can operate to reinforce Tactical squads, keep armoured spearheads moving and shooting, and add crew to Thunderfire batteries.

One of my gripes about the current version of the Codex is that the Captain is just a bruiser rather than the synergistic sort of model that Chaplains, Librarians, Sanguinary Priests, Techmarines, and so on are. That's something Codex Blood Angels does right, making Chaplains an Elite option and providing Sanguinary Priests as Elite options, allowing you to purchase specialists that synergize with squads and your army rather than providing units to do the heavy lifting like Terminators. Sicarius is what a Space Marine Captain should be (Rites of Battle, etc) but it's really the tactical flexibility he provides to an army that does it.

That's why I like the 5th edition Space Marine army: you can design lists that play differently from game to game without constant tweaking and without playing the Rock-Scissors-Paper game. They have many optimal paths you can choose to take, whereas the Space Wolves are one-dimensional if they're going to be optimal: your strategy is pretty much determined by the army.

Tha's a pretty good analysis, Nurglitch.

Don't forget that sw get one of the stongest hq ever,wolf lord thunderwolf mount with storm shield frost axe and saga of a warior born kills everything

That HQ is also god awfully expensive...

@Nurglitch:
I had the same thoughts on the Techmarines, but in my experience it does not translate very well for specifically the Biker TM. Note, I'm gonna guess your point of view is of the foot version, which is much cheaper.

I like the idea of a toolbox of ranged and combat weapons on the TM to support units (in my case the 'tactical' bikers)...but the cost (125 IIRC w/ gear) is just so much for one wound.

75 IIRC is the cost for a TM with just a harness....iffy in terms of cost but adds much bite to a Tactical Squad in say a rhino or a razor.

I like the idea of it, just pricey.

So after a quick read is the latest consensus that C:SM are the better all-comers army?

I wouldn't say so. Both armies are viable in an all-comers tournament environment; in fact, the current trends seem to slightly favor Space Wolves over Space Marines. That said, Space Marines have a wider variety of possible builds than Space Wolves.