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I have started a Wolf Wing this summer and am starting to feel like I could benefit from the tactical flexibility that would come from having one my Termy Squads mounted in a Land Raider. I am thinking it should probably be the crusader, but I have not ruled the redemer out. The redeemer cost less, and can carry more guys. I am also finding alot of people in cover hiding from my assault which is annoying as WG terminators don't have grenades.

Please let me know what you guys think.

I prefer Crusader

can carry the most amount I think, and is very mobile (can move at combat speed and fire all its default weapons). Redeemer aint bad. great for swarms in cover, but its also very short ranged (especially since the weapons are on the side)

Redeemer. It only carries 2 less terminators than the crusader, but has a truly devastating pair of weapons. the crusader is not a bad tank. redeemers are just imo more aggressive.

I bought a crusader recently and am loving it.

It can carry my termie hammer and puts an insane amount of dakka out. And if you buy a MM (you probably should), you can move at combat speed and use POTMS to fire at a different target then the other weapons.

yes. always buy the multi melta. its ssssoooooo solid.

Ooh! ooh! Don't forget EA, it's a (relatively) cheap upgrade.

It helps keep your 400pts+ hammer rolling!

I'm going to second the suggestion of the Redeemer. S6 AP3 template weapons will kill all but the most hardly armored targets, and most importantly will deny cover saves to enemies hunkered down in woods and the like. With the Machine Spirit able to fire one weapon, if you're close enough you can bake two separate units with templatey goodness.

12 model capacity is more than enough for a WL/WP in terminator armor + his Wolf Guard buddies. Sure, the crusader can carry 2 more dudes, but really, 5 wolves are probably enough for whatever needs killing!

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Ooh! ooh! Don't forget EA, it's a (relatively) cheap upgrade.

It helps keep your 400pts+ hammer rolling!

15 points for downgrading 1/6 results on a AV 14 vehicle (which isn't likely to even have many rolls against a game) is NOT a cheap upgrade compared to its usefulness.

As for which one to take: crusader. The redeemer has the whole problem of moving and firing all of its weapons (it can't). It also has the problem of side mounted flame templates. (short range and target arc)

Crusader can: Move 6 and still fire all weapons, fire all of its weapons at 24 inches, fre all of its weapons in the same direction, and carry more models.

Honestly, it depends on what you're fielding in your list, and by comparison to what else you have, you can choose accordingly.

Against Horde-like armies and some MEQ's that specialize in CC, the Redeemer would get you more returns on each shot fired, since it is likely you'll be heading towards enemy lines with your LRR and getting your Terminators into battle quickly.

Against other armies, and shooting type MEQ's that keep their distances, I would say the Crusader, based on the sheer amount shots you get with each turn.

It also depends on what kind of Terminators you run to. For myself, I would run Lightning Claw Terminators in a Crusader, and TH/SS's in a Redeemer. If I run both for some reason, they'd get their respective LR's. Reason being is b/c LC's benefit more with sheer quantity in attacks against Infantry and can make better use of the Frag Assault Launchers. TH/SS Terminators always strike at Init 1, so their need for a Frag Assault Launcher is less necessary. A LR Godhammer would suit them fine just as well, in this case, but a Redeemer is cheaper, and the Flamestorm Cannons have a better chance of killing more models than 2 TL Lascannons would.

I'm not that familiar Wolf Guard Terminators you're running, but maybe a similar strategy wouldn't hurt. Playtest them, and see which is better for you.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:Honestly, it depends on what you're fielding in your list, and by comparison to what else you have, you can choose accordingly.

They would be twin lighting claws in the raider. Perhaps a character. I am also thinking of throwing in 2 guys in power armor as ablative wounds and combi weapon holders. Here's a link to my list if it helps. I realize that it's by no means competitive. I'm looking to have fun, but still appreciate having thought out how different elements fit together.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/312771.page

Rurouni Benshin wrote: Playtest them, and see which is better for you.

Good call, I think I try the redeemer next week and see how it works. I'll have to put up with a lot of crap for putting a pink raider on the table. Maybe I'll give it a primer coat even though it's still under construction....

I've been considering this exact question for my ultramarines as well and this is what it comes down to.

Do you really need more bolters?

The Redeemer brings something unique and powerful, the crusader just brings more of your basic troop guns.

Trust in thy holy boltgun. It is always there for you. Love it.

Seriously, the crusader can carry a lot of men and can put out a lot of dakka.

The flamestorm cannons also have one blind spot. anywhere in front of the land raider.

EDIT: if you're not feeling the pink LR, send it to dashofpepper and his pink waaaaaughhh! gets a new Battlewagon.

Honestly, it doesn't look that bad for something scratch built to scale. If someone gives you crap about it, ask them if they can make one better. *lol*

Anyways, I'm not that familiar with SW in general, but if you're looking to make a list that's either fluff heavy or just cool looking in your opinion, roll with it. I play competitive and non-competitively all the time with all my friends, and we have a blast doing it. As long as you have fun, that's what's most important.

As for the comments on Crusaders & Redeemers, again, it depends on what you're fielding and what you're playing against. Both work great when used the right way.

Redeemer is better for the flame storm cannons and cheaper cost unless you really need the extra capacity of the redeemer. Make sure to take the pintle mounted multimelta.

Kirika wrote:Redeemer is better for the flame storm cannons and cheaper cost unless you really need the extra capacity of the crusader. Make sure to take the pintle mounted multimelta.

Fix'd

notabot187 wrote:

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Ooh! ooh! Don't forget EA, it's a (relatively) cheap upgrade.

It helps keep your 400pts+ hammer rolling!

15 points for downgrading 1/6 results on a AV 14 vehicle (which isn't likely to even have many rolls against a game) is NOT a cheap upgrade compared to its usefulness.

As for which one to take: crusader. The redeemer has the whole problem of moving and firing all of its weapons (it can't). It also has the problem of side mounted flame templates. (short range and target arc)

Crusader can: Move 6 and still fire all weapons, fire all of its weapons at 24 inches, fre all of its weapons in the same direction, and carry more models.

Even 1 hit with the flamestorm cannon has a good chance to be more devastating than the crusader firing all of its weapons. IMO the best use of the redeemers fire power in the rare case you get to shoot 2 guns is either to flame squads in two different directions or to flame this and melt that. Both templates against the same squad probably won't work. The cannon is so devastating that in my experience I only need to shoot it once to create an imbalance in the game, if I get to shoot it twice I'll probably win. Vs infantry based armies anyway.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote: I only need to shoot it once

This reminded me of Tony Stark's line from the first Iron Movie.

I feel that the redeemer makes for an awesome second LR in a list. But if your just going to take 1 LR, the Crusader is the better option. I've found that it just gets more done over the course of the game.

The biggest question I think that needs to be answered is do you need a hammer or a lance? Hammer being the redeemer for causing massive destruction but only in a small area, and the lance the crusader for having a much longer range but only in one direction (mostly). What is the rest of your wolf-wing made of?

I've run this list a few times, it has been fun and done ok. I have won, loss, and drawn in equal portions.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/312771.page

I am thinking about revamping the whole thing. Perhaps dropping the bikes and the drop pods. I'm on the fence about this, I've enjoyed the flexibility in having them but I don't use them often. I'd love to add a dred and wolf scouts. Please help me out if any of you are inclined to leave your 2 cents.





You can see what I've got model wise here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/300012.page

Do you guys agree that extra armor is a waste? I've heard a few opinions but was wondering what the consensus was. Thanks for all the advice. It's been a lot to consider.

Take the redeemer. Your going to be getting close anyway, might as well use a close range weapon.
One good shot with the flames gun will kill 6 MEQ outside cover. That's hard to top with hooters.

Add a MM for AT and EA for that insurance and you have a beast!

Hard to top with hooters eh?

I doubt that. Also I just like the LRC. More versatile.

xxBlazinGhostxx wrote:Hard to top with hooters eh?

I doubt that. Also I just like the LRC. More versatile.

Heh, I love how the iphone *autocorrects* for you.
Its quite entertaining.

Don't forget if you have the extra points to get the Storm Bolter for the LRC, but only if you have the extra points.

labmouse42 wrote:That's hard to top with hooters.

First of all, every thing is better with hooters. I've had my "fun" with the autocorrect as well. It changed my wife's name to Cocoa. That was funny to explain.

I think I'm going to play test the Redeemer this week. I'm still open to the crusader, this seems to be the more logical choice. The redeemer calls to me with it's promise of face melting action. I'll try them both, and try and see what's what. I wonder if there is any way for me to set mine up so I can switch between variants depending on the list I choose to run, maybe with magnets or something....

Imho I like the Crusader, it can punish hoards, and pop the odd tank, but it cant touch 3+ or better saves, or MCs, or heavy vehicles (without getting in real close)

Redeemers can give a carnifex a bit of a scare (if the redeemer gets in range, you can expect to get one wound from the assault cannon, one from the multimelta, and 2 from the flamestorms, if you didnt move...somehow...totalling 4 wounds, and we all know what that means) and can also punish hoards, but forces you to get into dangerously close range. This is a 250 odd tank were talking here. Take 2 and their worth a baneblade. Its no joke when a meltabomb toting command squad or TH/SS squad takes out your awesome vehicle. Not to mention if your enemy has his 10 man tactical squad with melta and missile launcher, a common build, toasted with 8 hits on the squad, you now have a surviving melta marine with 2 inches to walk before they are within 2d6 range.

In my experience, my enemy players aren't dumb enough to let my slow ass land raider get close enough to use flamestorms on them, without dealing with it with defilers or str+2d6 armour penning MCs.

I think id find a crusader more useful for weight of fire (at 12' its 14 bolter shots including storm bolter, 4 assault cannon shots, and a multimeltashot which is 21 shots)

We all know what a rapidfiring tactical squad can do to a bunch of orks, but replace 4 of those shots with str 6 ap 4, and add a str 8 ap 1 which can target their trukk, and you have yourself some winsauce.

Alternatively, if you play on tight boards, have to get someone off an objective, or just want to be badass, REDEEEM YOUR SELF AND BUILD A REDEEMER.



EDIT: when I say cant touch 3+ saves, I mean do enough damage worthy of a 250 point unit.

Jaon wrote:Imho I like the Crusader, it can punish hoards, and pop the odd tank, but it cant touch 3+ or better saves, or MCs, or heavy vehicles (without getting in real close)

In my experience, my enemy players aren't dumb enough to let my slow ass land raider get close enough to use flamestorms on them, without dealing with it with defilers or str+2d6 armour penning MCs.

I think id find a crusader more useful for weight of fire (at 12' its 14 bolter shots including storm bolter, 4 assault cannon shots, and a multimeltashot which is 21 shots)

We all know what a rapidfiring tactical squad can do to a bunch of orks, but replace 4 of those shots with str 6 ap 4, and add a str 8 ap 1 which can target their trukk, and you have yourself some winsauce.

Alternatively, if you play on tight boards, have to get someone off an objective, or just want to be badass, REDEEEM YOUR SELF AND BUILD A REDEEMER.

The problem I see is that if you're in rapid fire range, you're just 12" away from the enemy which means the tank will still get melta'd to death and enemies (especially nobz with klaws hiding in mobs) will hit it on a 4+ in CC, while Orks hit a Redeemer on 6+ after moving 12" and it will propably deliver 2+ Insta-Kills to 7-10 orks with one shot, ignoring cover. Cover is an important aspect as ork hordes will either be under the effect of a Force Field or in cover itself (all smart players playing ork horde I know prefer to risk "maybe" getting into combat one round later while moving through cover all the time, prefering the extra protection against shooting) which decreases the actual effect of the Hurricanes and Ass-Cannons a lot.