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Thinking of starting an Iron Warriors army, and just incase GW re-releases Legion Books (unlikely, but...) How did the Iron Warriors book differ from the regular CSM Book? Cheaper Vehicles? Better Vehicles? etc. any help appreciated.

You could take obliterators as elites, and for sacrificing 2 fast attack slots you got another heavy slot. And you could field a Warsmith as a HQ.

Not to mention basalisks were available.

Back then. Oblits were elites and were 0-1 unless you were IW then you culd take up to 3

Only had one fast attack option.

Had 4 heavy support options as well ass could take a bassy/vindi(back then chaos didnt have the option to take vindis)

Could take a warsmith as an HQ

But I think thats about it.

They love the crap out of heavy weapons and tanks.

Warsmiths could get servo arms to repair vehicles and use a power fist attack, very fun stuff.

Urgh... WHY GW! WHY!
That sounds like fun. Shame I missed it all
Sigh*

But... what about the rest? I know Emperors Children used to have a book, but thats all i know (along with IW, ofc)

All the 4 God books gave free aspiring champions if the squads were the sacred number, different sorts of demonic gifts, weapons and demons. The other legions were quite unique. Word Bearers I believe could summon crazy amounts of demons, have chaplins. Night Lords all had night fighting and more fast attack slots in lu of heavy supports. Alpha Legion all had infiltrate, cultists as troops.

Yeah fluff lists were rewarded with alot of choices, shame that went away.

NostrilOfTerror wrote:Thinking of starting an Iron Warriors army, and just incase GW re-releases Legion Books (unlikely, but...) How did the Iron Warriors book differ from the regular CSM Book? Cheaper Vehicles? Better Vehicles? etc. any help appreciated.

Iron Warriors could not take any mark other than the mark of chaos undivided
They could not take any cult troops or demons (in their earliest Index Astartes rules, before the Chaos Codex 3.5, they could take a single unit of berserkers)
They could buy their lord a servo arm (remobilize a vehicle on a 6 and could be used as a powerfist in close combat)
They could take a 4th heavy support choice by dropping two fast attack choices from their FOC
They could take a basilisk or vindicator (at the time no other chaos army could take vindicators, they weren't in the codex.)
They could take extra obliterators (at the time they were 0-1 and they were elites not heavy supports.)
I want to say they had a special veteran ability but I can't remember exactly.

Alot of iron warriors armies showed up after that book came out because heavy supports were alot more powerful back then than they are now (the game was played at longer range - there were no objectives holding you to fixed points and hence no reason to close unless you were an assault army) so having a 4th one seemed really good. Bringing a basilisk or vindicator in a chaos army was pretty cool too.

They're not going to do a codex: legions book. At this point it would just make more sense to rewrite the codex, which is due for an update anyway. If I had to guess I'd say they'll include books of chaos in the next chaos codex bc books of chaos are AWESOME and chaos codices without it are LAME.
AF


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they couldnt get a free aspiring champion though as chaos undivided had no sacred number. that was a god-specific thing only.

I think Iron Warriors had tank hunter and siege specialists veteran skills, I know siege specialists.

yeah siege specialists that was it. +1 to penetrate a bunker.

I miss my chainaxes =*(

What about the other legion books though? Like Emperor's Children? I heard something about Terminators with Sonic Blasters somewhere? I know their dreads could have TL Sonic Blasters or a BlastMaster (possibly doom siren?) ETC. What about black legion?

DAMM YOU GW I WILL HAVE YOUR HEADS FOR THIS!

NostrilOfTerror wrote:What about the other legion books though? Like Emperor's Children? I heard something about Terminators with Sonic Blasters somewhere? I know their dreads could have TL Sonic Blasters or a BlastMaster (possibly doom siren?) ETC. What about black legion?

Emperor's Children could just swap their bolters for sonic weapons, no charge. Special weapons became blast master and doom sirens and whatnot.

Black Legion was just that, vanilla chaos. Able to take things with any mark without restriction. The marks limited what you could take, Nurgle didn't have fast attack, 2 plague marines with rhinos, after that any unit taking a rhino became fast attack. Khorne didn't mix with Slaanesh, Nurgle with Tzeentch, Marks made those chaos marines troops, other marks were elites.

It was a fluffgasm for army building.

There was only "Chaos Space Marines" as troops. What you marked them made them that kind of unit. And every unit with that mark had that effect, possessed, Terminators and such for instance would suffer from blood rage just as chaos marines did from the mark of khorne, giving that added movement across the field. Quite thought out in terms of rules, almost never an ambiguity.

The guy who wrote that Chaos Codex played Iron Warriors, so as a result Iron Warriors were a wee bit overpowered. 4th ed was a lot more static, and having an entire army of static heavy weapons sitting and wiping things off the other side of the field made Iron Warriors stupid good.

I hope the next Chaos Codex incarnation brings some fluff back on board and gives you guys legion options that are balanced, different, and fun. Just like the old days.

Brother SRM wrote:The guy who wrote that Chaos Codex played Iron Warriors, so as a result Iron Warriors were a wee bit overpowered. 4th ed was a lot more static, and having an entire army of static heavy weapons sitting and wiping things off the other side of the field made Iron Warriors stupid good.

Sure... anyway... 3.5 codex gave the CSM TRUE personality.... not this current one.... .... i remember playing IW.... all people thougt "peh... a shooting wall of lascannons" an then... TACHAAAAANNN!!! they encounteres a full assault IW list... few dreadnoughts,etc, etc... they didn't expected it.... but.. chaos is chaos... you cannot await what can happen...


I favour to the current one i must say two things... 20 marines squads, and.... after 10.000 years of experience.... they learned that they can carry a bolt pistol in addition to their bolter and chainsword

wasnt that dex the one with Chaos Bezerkers making all saves better than +4, a +4 save? good times indeed

although really in a non competitive standpoint, with a little tweaking theres probably not much stopping you from using the old dex

kenshin620 wrote:wasnt that dex the one with Chaos Bezerkers making all saves better than +4, a +4 save? good times indeed

although really in a non competitive standpoint, with a little tweaking theres probably not much stopping you from using the old dex

as the orks!!!! Choppas did the same! some armies terrified with the idea to facing an Ork Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh! especially those ones formed mainly with terminators... (yes, i'm looking to yours...death company....)

^^^ You mean Deathwing, duder.

I don't miss Choppas and Khornate chainaxes causing all saves to be 4+ if they're better than 4+. It made Marine armies really gimped against them, while Guard, Orks, and Eldar could not have given less of a damn.

The old codex had a lot more personality than the current one, but there was some really, really ludicrous stuff going on in there that was just out of control. Anybody else remember infiltrating Nurgle lords with daemonic steeds and flight? Man, I sure love two simultaneous first turn charges on my army by nigh-unkillable ICs.

Brother SRM wrote:^^^ You mean Deathwing, duder.

I don't miss Choppas and Khornate chainaxes causing all saves to be 4+ if they're better than 4+. It made Marine armies really gimped against them, while Guard, Orks, and Eldar could not have given less of a damn.

The old codex had a lot more personality than the current one, but there was some really, really ludicrous stuff going on in there that was just out of control. Anybody else remember infiltrating Nurgle lords with daemonic steeds and flight? Man, I sure love two simultaneous first turn charges on my army by nigh-unkillable ICs.

Sorry deathwing.... also Grey knighs in thery shiny terminator armor suffered against my old slugga-boyz.... but you've got reason on that.... for the other armies don't mind a gak the choppas.... it was like "hey they're coming with a huge piece of sharpenad metal!".... the guardsmen stand strong while the SM shiver in fear..... a good chance to feel good for the guardsmen

Black Corsair wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:wasnt that dex the one with Chaos Bezerkers making all saves better than +4, a +4 save? good times indeed

although really in a non competitive standpoint, with a little tweaking theres probably not much stopping you from using the old dex

as the orks!!!! Choppas did the same! some armies terrified with the idea to facing an Ork Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh! especially those ones formed mainly with terminators... (yes, i'm looking to yours...death company....)

dear god those were INSANE times

I think it would have made a lot more sense if "Heavy Close Combat Weapons" counted as AP5 weapons. but that'll kill off anything below carapace! (maybe limit the rules to say a big choppa)

kenshin620 wrote:

Black Corsair wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:wasnt that dex the one with Chaos Bezerkers making all saves better than +4, a +4 save? good times indeed

although really in a non competitive standpoint, with a little tweaking theres probably not much stopping you from using the old dex

as the orks!!!! Choppas did the same! some armies terrified with the idea to facing an Ork Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh! especially those ones formed mainly with terminators... (yes, i'm looking to yours...death company....)

dear god those were INSANE times

I think it would have made a lot more sense if "Heavy Close Combat Weapons" counted as AP5 weapons. but that'll kill off anything below carapace! (maybe limit the rules to say a big choppa)

Not really, i had a little logic this rule... choppas and chainaxes, but especially choppas seems that are most lethal for pure brute impact rather than cuts, so, that can explain it, a massive-nearly blunt weapon like these, will break more easily a rigid plate(and if not broken, it will torn apart your limbs) than a thinner armor, less rigid, that can absorb part of impact's strenght..

If it'd been a flat -1 to everyone, and impacted everyone in the same manner (rather than just 2+ and 3+ saves) it would have made more sense.

It's the way we do it.

H.B.M.C. wrote:If it'd been a flat -1 to everyone, and impacted everyone in the same manner (rather than just 2+ and 3+ saves) it would have made more sense.

It's the way we do it.

Agreed completelty.

The best it gets is 4+ pretty much only affects power armor armies and thus needed to be eliminated. Either a flat -1 or AP5 would have sufficed instead of just dropping it completely.

H.B.M.C. wrote:If it'd been a flat -1 to everyone, and impacted everyone in the same manner (rather than just 2+ and 3+ saves) it would have made more sense.

It's the way we do it.

Speaking of, I'm not opposed to Fantasyhammer/2nd ed 40k-style armor save modifiers here and there. Don't need to revamp the AP system or anything, just would be cool to have some modifiers in there.

A simple -1 Modifier is what we use for weapons that are powerful but become too powerful if they become AP3 - Assault Cannons, Autocannons and so on. We even apply it to thinks like Krak Missiles, so they still allow a Terminator to save, but at 3+ rather than 2+.

Just gets rid of some of the 'binary' nature of some 40K weapons - it can rip a tank in half yet bounces off a Termy because it's only AP3, yet S8?

NostrilOfTerror wrote:What about the other legion books though? Like Emperor's Children? I heard something about Terminators with Sonic Blasters somewhere? I know their dreads could have TL Sonic Blasters or a BlastMaster (possibly doom siren?) ETC. What about black legion?

ummm.... units with the mark of slaanesh had the option to buy sonic weapons. dreads and vehicles with sonic weapons only came later in the apocalypse data sheet IIRC. btw you can make a completely legit emperors children army off of that data sheet, so there's one of your books of chaos right there. Emperors Children armies didnt have any special bonuses except for the free aspiring champions and all the crazy wargear and psychic powers. The cult legions in general didnt get that much out of the books of chaos. It was the undivided ones that were really fleshed out.
AF

My God. GW really screwed chaos over by removing Legion Books

Actually AF, vehicles with Sonic Weaponry were in the 3.5 dex .

Siren power is worse than Lash... I know, I spent 110 points to not feel dirty about taking it...(110 points = 11 rolls on the minor psykic table).

eh..... by all acounts it was the you cant shoot me power that was the worst..... I didnt have any kind of slaanesh army back then so I never played with that stuff much.... Warp scream was slightly better than init 5 since 3rd ed assaults tended to degenerate into never ending melees in the center of the board. I like that the new data sheet lets you take meltaguns. Gav messed up the cult legions pretty bad.
AF