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So I've been playing my BA Mech list for a while and tweaking it with experience and help from everyone here. I think I am ready to start fine tuning the list more and learning more about strategies for proper placement. A lot of times on my opponents first turn (if they go after me) they are able to get side shots on my Baal Preds. I was wondering how do you guys move then around the table to give the RBs and Baals the best cover and angle to give the enemy less shots at the side. Baals are SO easy to pop with side armor...

I'm thinking some people maybe put RBs in the way? Is that what most people do? I've read on a lot of tactics of other BA mech players that they move forward in a way that makes it extremely difficult to get side armor shots on their Baals and Vindis etc. I couldn't find any articles on this.

Tips? Advice?

Also with my list below, could I get some experience BA Mech players to convince me on what to do for my last 2 choices. I want either 2x "Annihilator" Predators that are Regular Preds with Las Cannon Sponsoons or 2x Vindicators.


TLDR:
1) I read people moving in such a way that they do not allow their enemy to get side shots on their Preds/Vindis/Baals. How do you do this?
2) With my list below would you suggest 2x Annihilator Preds (Reg Pred with Las Sponsoons) or 2x Vindicators? Why?


Librarian
Assault Squad
Meltagun
Transport: Razorback
TL Assault Cannons

Assault Squad
Meltagun
Transport: Razorback
TL Assault Cannons

Assault Squad
Meltagun
Transport: Razorback
TL Plas/ Las

Assault Squad
Meltagun
Transport: Razorback
TL Plas/ Las

Baal Predator
Heavy Bolters

Baal Predator
Heavy Bolters

Honour Guard
Meltagun x 4
Drop Pod

+

2x Vindicator
or
2x Regular Pred + Las Sponsoons

Well, firstly, drop the HB sponsons on the Baals, it makes them slower and if you're just going to move 12" anyway, then why take the sponsons? Also they also draw more attention to them.

I'm not sure about dropping around 200 pts of your army (Honor Guard and DP) behind the enemy with little to no support.

I'd take the Preds because you may find yourself in a situation where it is in your best interest to just sitback and shoot the enemy rather then close, while the vindcators will make you move forward in order to be of any use.

That Honor guard unit is a pretty large points investment for a suicide unit. I don't like that. I'd consider 4x Plasma and Jump Packs (DoA makes this very safe and reliable) that way you can delay their entry into the game a little bit and use them as instant hard hitting fire support wherever you need them. To be honest though, I feel like a deepstriking unit of Honor Guards is just out of place in a list like this.

I'd take the Predators over the Vindicators in your list. It doesn't seem aggressive enough to want to close with the enemy like Vindicators do (because of their range). You could also use a couple more Lascannon/Autocannon shots to help deal with enemy armor in the early turns. I'd try to find room to fit in a third one to be honest.

Well, in terms of movement, if you have three AV 13 vehicles then move them side by side to maintain the following pattern: \|/
This provides the tanks with a larger front angle.
Razorbacks with lascannons can be deployed behind so that they get 3+ cover saves.
Razorbacks with assault cannons should be placed on the sides of the above pattern so that they are obscured.

Thanks for the movement help wuesten.

Ok so the majority vote is gooing towards annihilator predators. Guess that's the best choice then lol.

What would you guys suggest as an alternative to my anti av13/14 landraiders and stuff if I should remove my drop pod squad of meltas? I did them like that because it is probably the most reliable way of taking out av14 in 1 go...

Find a way to do 2x autolas preds and a vindi or 2 vindis and an autolas pred. Just avoid the TL lascannon turret.

My god to many Assault Marines! Oh well your style is your style. . . I run 1 Flamestorm Baal and 1 Regular Baal with Heavy Bolters. It provides that early firepower while the arm moves up. I play the Preds with lascannon sponsons. The biggest weakness is numbers though. orcs are about the only thing I would honestly worry about really.

wuestenfux wrote:Well, in terms of movement, if you have three AV 13 vehicles then move them side by side to maintain the following pattern: \|/
This provides the tanks with a larger front angle.
Razorbacks with lascannons can be deployed behind so that they get 3+ cover saves.
Razorbacks with assault cannons should be placed on the sides of the above pattern so that they are obscured.

If your opponent can see your turret, they can see a non-insignificant part of the vehicle, therefore they can see your hull (by GW's shoddy definition) and you do *not* get a 3+ cover save.

willydstyle wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Well, in terms of movement, if you have three AV 13 vehicles then move them side by side to maintain the following pattern: \|/
This provides the tanks with a larger front angle.
Razorbacks with lascannons can be deployed behind so that they get 3+ cover saves.
Razorbacks with assault cannons should be placed on the sides of the above pattern so that they are obscured.

If your opponent can see your turret, they can see a non-insignificant part of the vehicle, therefore they can see your hull (by GW's shoddy definition) and you do *not* get a 3+ cover save.

While this is true the argument can be made that if you only see the turret you dont have a "shot" at the actual tank. They technicly see the hull but have no access to hitting ythe hull

That argument is wrong. The BRB gives you specific permission to target the turret of a vehicle.

In a 1500 point list like mine what do you guys think of modifying it with 2 pred 2 Baal? Or should I even go further with a 3/3 split

Baals should be run with heavy bolters so you can have a mid-field torrent of fire unit. They don't make a vehicle slower, that's just ridiculous, they just make it so that if you don't need to move 12 or 18 (which is most of the time, TBH) you get significantly more firepower.

Other than Baals, I like "autolas" preds for HS preds. A friend of mine runs mech BA with 2 autolas preds and two baals with HB sponsons to great effect.

What about the fact that if you are correct then the Razorback is over 90% in cover.

I personally run as I stated 2 Baal Preds 1 with just a Flamestorm cannon for those tricky marine players and a TL Aoutocannon Baal with Heavy Bolters to rush up fast early on and provide that much needed mid feild support and then to retreat it as nesseccary to stay with my tactiacl advantage.

I then add in 2 normal preds with Lascannon spaonsons to do the same exact thing. you would be surprised on the effectiveness of this. though in a 1500 point game i am not sure how I would run them likely the same way. . .

It doesn't matter how much % of cover a razorback is in if the cover is provided by another unit, it gets a 4+ save.

So everyone thinks Predators are it...I guess that's what I'm going to get. Sounds good

Anyone else have advice on movement tank placement?

\|/ this formation sounds about right since it spreads the front av13 best.

Predators all the way. They can move and fire all weapons.

wuestenfux wrote:Predators all the way. They can move and fire all weapons.

So can a Baal Pred. Remember 6" fire all, 12" fire 1

Anyone else have any movement strategies or tactics they would like to share?

I like the \|/ movement of AV 13 so you have a wider frontside 13 armor.

(My list will now also have 3 MM LandSpeeders by the way)

Lysenis wrote:

wuestenfux wrote:Predators all the way. They can move and fire all weapons.

So can a Baal Pred. Remember 6" fire all, 12" fire 1

Right, this is the way fast vehicles can move and fire.

I dont do formations. It makes things more complicated if I plan it out like that not to mention predictible. I would rather take in the lay out of terrain and then use that to my advantage. Now If I could not do that and there is an expance of open ground I may do a formation.

As for Land Speeders with MM, they are ok but I would take a Baal Pred over a LS ANY day.

Well, if you have 140 pts left, I'd consider two LS with multimelta and heavy flamer.
LS can fill gaps in the gun line and can be a nasty surprise to the enemy.

Fast Autolas Preds FTW.

MekanobSamael wrote:Fast Autolas Preds FTW.

In fact, I fielded Predators at several occasion and was always annoyed that they are pillboxes.
If they move, they lose some of their shooting effectiveness.
But BA Predators are so much better: 6'' maneuverability is usually sufficient to get better LoS.

Ya. Going to do a squad of 3x Land Speeders. I don't have any fast attack unit space anymore since I run 2x Baal Predators. I will also be running 2x TL AC/ Las Sponsoon Preds.

Hopefully this will take care of my Land Raider problem. Have a wall of AV 13's to keep my Land Speeders safe for a turn. Then move then up and shoot down the Land Raider with 3 MM.

I'm debating if I should use 2x MM on each Land Speeder giving me a total of 6. That way I am assured a Land Raider going down. We usually play on 48" tables and deploy @ 12". So after 1st turn I should easily have 12" for the 2d6 by moving just 6" closer to the LR, that way I can fire both MM's.

OT Q: If I equip a Land Speeder with a MM + Heavy Flamer could I fire both after moving 12"?

OT Q: If I equip a Land Speeder with a MM + Heavy Flamer could I fire both after moving 12"?

No, if a Speeder moves 12'' it can shoot a main and all defensive weapons which are S4.

For blood angels, the question of Vindi or Pred is one of the toughest, I couldnt choose, but I did say Predator.

For normal SM, its quite obvious. The predator with lascannons. Its expensive as hell and not as durable as you might want it to be, but space marines need that reliability in their list, a Vindicator has the chance to asplode the toughest of things, but it also has the chance of epic fail. Predator eliminates that.


Blood angels on the other hand A) can get anti tank where they need it fast as hell and B) have fast vehicles.

So the questions are
1. why waste the fastness of a predator on long ranged weaponry?
2. Are the vindicators fast enough to get to where they need to be in time?
3. Do you have the adequate infantry to deal with a horde?
4. Do you have the adequate response time to deal with really threatening enemy vehicles?

Look into these questions, and you will find your answer.

@Wuesten: Thanks for that answer I didn't think so, since its s5 but someone told me I could...liars!

@Jaon: Thanks for the assist in helping.

1) I know it seems like a waste on fastness for a long range Pred but to me I like that ability to move 6" and still fire both my weapons or 12" and fire whichever I need the most atm.

Which brings up another question. If I move 12" and fire my Las Sponsoons I can fire both right? Do they count as 1 or are they seperate and I can only fire either my left or right sponsoon?

2) Vindicators on the boards we play with will for sure always be able to fire at whatever I want in time. We most of the time..play on 48" boards so starting at 12" on both sides I can move 1" and hit my targets already.

3) I do not have adequate infantry to deal a horde but I deal wit horde mostly by all my TL AsC and Baal Preds TL AsC + HBs.

4) This was my biggest problem. I now have a squad of 3x Land Speeders with MM's.

Hopefully that solves the problem.

Each sponson is a separate weapon.

1) I know it seems like a waste on fastness for a long range Pred but to me I like that ability to move 6" and still fire both my weapons or 12" and fire whichever I need the most atm.

Moving 12" is only effective in a few situations.

1) Getting to your enemy asap but with 48" lascannons it is almost pointless.
2) Getting away from your enemy, when your enemy comes calling for an assault you want to run it away
3) Finding cover (easy enough to figure out)

Remember that your sponsons have a huge firing arc (in BRB for more detail) so there is not much that you cant hit with both sponsons at one time. That is unless you want to protect your armour.

3) I do not have adequate infantry to deal a horde but I deal wit horde mostly by all my TL AsC and Baal Preds TL AsC + HBs.

A little secret on that. BA is not made to handle infantry on a mass scale. Orks and Tyranids are your greatest threat (in that order) That is why Flamestorm Baals are so important IMHO

4) This was my biggest problem. I now have a squad of 3x Land Speeders with MM's.

I would rather spend the points on a Flamestorm Baal but I will say I am inexperienced with LS

Lysenis wrote:1) I know it seems like a waste on fastness for a long range Pred but to me I like that ability to move 6" and still fire both my weapons or 12" and fire whichever I need the most atm.

Moving 12" is only effective in a few situations.

1) Getting to your enemy asap but with 48" lascannons it is almost pointless.
2) Getting away from your enemy, when your enemy comes calling for an assault you want to run it away
3) Finding cover (easy enough to figure out)

Remember that your sponsons have a huge firing arc (in BRB for more detail) so there is not much that you cant hit with both sponsons at one time. That is unless you want to protect your armour.

3) I do not have adequate infantry to deal a horde but I deal wit horde mostly by all my TL AsC and Baal Preds TL AsC + HBs.

A little secret on that. BA is not made to handle infantry on a mass scale. Orks and Tyranids are your greatest threat (in that order) That is why Flamestorm Baals are so important IMHO

4) This was my biggest problem. I now have a squad of 3x Land Speeders with MM's.

I would rather spend the points on a Flamestorm Baal but I will say I am inexperienced with LS

How would you deal with LRs? Just curious. Do you have any dedicated anti av13/14? The guys I play with a lot have Land Raiders + Ven Dreds which are a paint for me to pop if I had my army list + Flamestorm baal over LS.