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Ok folks here's the situation. Scenario is Pitched Battle with Annihilation, we set up 24" apart

1) My opponent sets up a land raider side ways, hard against his deployment limit.
2) He takes his first turn, rotates said Land Raider and moves forward 12"
3) Deploys his terminators out of it
4) Charges me in the assault phase, just making it with the lead termy

Note we have a 1st turn charge here how did this happen?

When the land raider rotates, because its a rectangle the front third is now projecting over his deployment limit even though he hasn't moved it yet. Nets him about 2.5"

When the terminators deploy it games them an extra 2" and when you factor that the termys are on large bases we gain about 1.5" there.

2.5 + 2 + 1.5 = 6 There we have it, the extra 6" required to set up a first turn charge from 24" away.

As I said this is all technically legal but its a pretty cheap trick. Was wondering if anyone else out in the Dakkaverse had encountered this maneuver, or indeed if anyone thinks its a good idea!

I agree it is sneaky but a great trick for getting into combat quickly.

Were they Assault Terminators or just Regular Terminators?

Ouch. Wouldn't pull that in a friendly game, but does have its merits in the less gentlemanly tournies. The only thing similar I have encountered is the Tervigon whose 14 spawned guants managed to charge me first turn. This was Dawn of War and 18" away though. Not the same I think.

Thats interesting. Are there rules on exactly where the pivot of a tank is, because you could technically turn the land raider pivoting from its back end to gain however long the land raider actually is.

Thats if there are no rules, theres most likely a rule on pivoting from the center of the tank.

This is why you subtly deploy your guys one inch away from the end of the deployment zone if you know you're probably not going first. 24" range weapons will use that distance to make themselves at the very outer limit of their range all the time if you watch a 'competitive' game, so that one inch can deny this first turn assault stuff and a round of shooting from entire units.

If they still put their models in base contact or claim they have range you know they're doing something hokey with measurements before the game seriously starts. Call them out on it.

Jaon wrote:Thats interesting. Are there rules on exactly where the pivot of a tank is, because you could technically turn the land raider pivoting from its back end to gain however long the land raider actually is.

It rotates on the exact centre of the tank , at least according to a staffer who was watching at the time.

Oh and regarding the type of terminators... they were wolf guard...

Staff are as accurate with rules as you or me (though there is the issue of they have last say as it is their store).
____________________

Else, who cares, the opponent should be meching up honestly and not deploying at 24" but <24".
Early committing termies are dead termies and the SM army loses steam as they are taken on piece-meal.

It sounds right though, I mean it is the literal interpretation of rotates on the spot. Its not like vehicles pivot on a corner or anything like that (at least not any more)

It's gamey and rude in some places I guess.
It really depends on who you are playing against and if this was discussed before the game. Some people have self restrictions on what they think is right/proper/polite play.

Every army can take adv. of this IMO, the only issue is if this was 'ok'ed' before the game or not.

This is a brilliant trick.

Dirty, bastardly, and other nasty words, yes, but brilliant nonetheless.

I would honestly be so impressed with my opponent's shrewdness and savvy that I couldn't even be mad about it.

Man, I wouldn't even look on the rules, I'd rotate every tracked vehicle from the center, and wheeled vehicles from the rear... like they actually do.

But then, it's just silly me.

Dark wrote:Man, I wouldn't even look on the rules, I'd rotate every tracked vehicle from the center, and wheeled vehicles from the rear... like they actually do.

But then, it's just silly me.

I don't believe the rules specify a pivot point when you're pivoting your vehicles on the spot.

However, the rules do define movement by the distance traveled from the front of the hull of the vehicle, so I might counter-argue that if you pivot on the end of the vehicle, you've moved roughly a distance equal to the length of the vehicle, and therefore count has having moved that distance. Actually, I could argue that the front of the vehicle hull has moved twice the length of the vehicle, and thus if it's a vehicle at least 3.0001" in length, you're moving at cruising speed... when all you've actually done is move about 3.0001".

So, RAW, pivoting from any point other than the center of the vehicle is disadvantageous to you.

sneaky, and scary. Until like the above said, early committed termies are dead termies. My favourite moment of playing IG so far is when an opponent risked deep striking a chaos lord and termie body guard into the heart of my guardsmen thinking he'd do me big time. One turn later and they were smoke from LASGUNS! my heavy weapon squads didn't even touch them. The lord wasn't killed but a conscript squad kept him busy while I shot a few other units up before turning attention back to the lord. Want to assult me first tern with termies? go for.... please. As soon as the combats over they're gonnas. how many points is that they need to take out to make the move worth it?

But then the pure shock factor could be worth more than getting their poitns back for the more evil players out there. Now, where's my land raider? *snigger snigger.

I suppose if you know what your doing and can see that weak point in your opponents line it could be a really msart move though.

So lemme get this straight.

We're talking about moving an inch or two extra with a vehicle? Like 13-14.5 inches instead of the 12" that a LR can move?

Pivot...then begin your movement? Sorry, how is this not cheating?

Sure, you can pivot your vehicle all you like "AS THEY MOVE" (thats a rulebook quote boys and girls). Not BEFORE THEY MOVE.

I'm sorry...and surprised that I'm the first one to call foul on this one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emmkay wrote:As I said this is all technically legal but its a pretty cheap trick. Was wondering if anyone else out in the Dakkaverse had encountered this maneuver, or indeed if anyone thinks its a good idea!

No its not, and no its not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emmkay wrote:
It rotates on the exact centre of the tank , at least according to a staffer who was watching at the time.

Tell that staffer that Deadshane told him to go read the rulebook.

Deadshane - actually entirely legal, and has been since 3rd ed.

FIrst turn charges are also entirely fine, Raider wytches have again been able to do this (comfortably, with the right drugs) for ages.

You pivot from the centre, and you are told that pivoting cannot *reduce* your movement. If you in anyway say my move has been reduced by pivoting then you are the one who is cheating, not me.

The YMDC forum had a long thread on this. End result, no matter what anyone says to the contrary, this IS legal, IS known about to GW (seriously, the number who are at UK GT every year that to not know it requires greater levels of ineptitude than evenb GW could be responsible for) and HAS been left in the rule book now for close on 12 years.

I'm surprised anyone is surprised by it.

Sanctjud wrote:It's gamey and rude in some places I guess.

....and illegal in others.

SaintHazard wrote:

Dark wrote:Man, I wouldn't even look on the rules, I'd rotate every tracked vehicle from the center, and wheeled vehicles from the rear... like they actually do.

But then, it's just silly me.

I don't believe the rules specify a pivot point when you're pivoting your vehicles on the spot.

However, the rules do define movement by the distance traveled from the front of the hull of the vehicle, so I might counter-argue that if you pivot on the end of the vehicle, you've moved roughly a distance equal to the length of the vehicle, and therefore count has having moved that distance. Actually, I could argue that the front of the vehicle hull has moved twice the length of the vehicle, and thus if it's a vehicle at least 3.0001" in length, you're moving at cruising speed... when all you've actually done is move about 3.0001".

So, RAW, pivoting from any point other than the center of the vehicle is disadvantageous to you.

Well, i'm just a theorist, since my only real games are all of Necromunda (I'm building my 40K army, though), but I'm pretty sure that the small rulebook on the AoBR box says that the movement is calculated from the rear of the vehicle (thus, not moving a lot actually :\), but I can only check that once I'm at home (I'm at work now, then college)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Deadshane - actually entirely legal, and has been since 3rd ed.

FIrst turn charges are also entirely fine, Raider wytches have again been able to do this (comfortably, with the right drugs) for ages.

You pivot from the centre, and you are told that pivoting cannot *reduce* your movement. If you in anyway say my move has been reduced by pivoting then you are the one who is cheating, not me.

The YMDC forum had a long thread on this. End result, no matter what anyone says to the contrary, this IS legal, IS known about to GW (seriously, the number who are at UK GT every year that to not know it requires greater levels of ineptitude than evenb GW could be responsible for) and HAS been left in the rule book now for close on 12 years.

I'm surprised anyone is surprised by it.

Anyway you slice it, the LR is 14.5 inches closer to the enemy than it was at the start of the turn. Last I checked, LR's are able to move 12".

You moved only 12" yet the LR is 14.5" closer. I need a LR that is able to warp space/time like you guys got.

You guys say that pivoting cannot REDUCE a vehicles movement, but apparantly it can INCREASE it. Interesting notion. I disagree.

Deadshane1 wrote:So lemme get this straight.

We're talking about moving an inch or two extra with a vehicle? Like 13-14.5 inches instead of the 12" that a LR can move?

Pivot...then begin your movement? Sorry, how is this not cheating?

Sure, you can pivot your vehicle all you like "AS THEY MOVE" (thats a rulebook quote boys and girls). Not BEFORE THEY MOVE.

I'm sorry...and surprised that I'm the first one to call foul on this one.

Bold emphasis mine.

Please show me in the rule book where it says that.

There is nothing preventing you from pivoting on the spot then moving. If I am wrong, please prove me wrong with a ruling and I'll gladly accept it.

kronk wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:So lemme get this straight.

We're talking about moving an inch or two extra with a vehicle? Like 13-14.5 inches instead of the 12" that a LR can move?

Pivot...then begin your movement? Sorry, how is this not cheating?

Sure, you can pivot your vehicle all you like "AS THEY MOVE" (thats a rulebook quote boys and girls). Not BEFORE THEY MOVE.

I'm sorry...and surprised that I'm the first one to call foul on this one.

Bold emphasis mine.

Please show me in the rule book where it says that.

There is nothing preventing you from pivoting on the spot then moving. If I am wrong, please prove me wrong with a ruling and I'll gladly accept it.

Pg 57

Third paragraph, skipping bullet points, first sentence.

Guess what? If you see this type of deployment... only deploy 11 inches out from the table edge.

It's a sneaky trick yes, but I say you made yourself vulnerable by placing your unit at the hard edge of your deployment zone.

I'd like to point out also that if you're willing to fight this point to arguement during a game, if your gameplan depends on it that much, you're a weak player indeed.

I could play either way.

I just like to know that LR's are supposed to move 12". If I'm playing against an opponent that says they can move 12" forward or 14.5" to the side, its fine. If he needs that to make an interesting game against me, knock yourself out.

(I guess my meltaguns' close range is just going to (effectively) be 8.5 inches for the 2d6 pens that game since he's that much closer.)

Deadshane1 wrote:

kronk wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:So lemme get this straight.

We're talking about moving an inch or two extra with a vehicle? Like 13-14.5 inches instead of the 12" that a LR can move?

Pivot...then begin your movement? Sorry, how is this not cheating?

Sure, you can pivot your vehicle all you like "AS THEY MOVE" (thats a rulebook quote boys and girls). Not BEFORE THEY MOVE.

I'm sorry...and surprised that I'm the first one to call foul on this one.

Bold emphasis mine.

Please show me in the rule book where it says that.

There is nothing preventing you from pivoting on the spot then moving. If I am wrong, please prove me wrong with a ruling and I'll gladly accept it.

Pg 57

Third paragraph, skipping bullet points, first sentence.

Deadshane - The move is legit wheather you agree with it or not. Since you seem to be so adamently against it I suggest you just make a house rule to prevent it rather then trying to twist the verbage of the rules to get the outcome you're looking for.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:I could play either way.

(I guess my meltaguns' close range is just going to (effectively) be 8.5 inches for the 2d6 pens that game since he's that much closer.)

That's the spirit.

oni wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

kronk wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:So lemme get this straight.

We're talking about moving an inch or two extra with a vehicle? Like 13-14.5 inches instead of the 12" that a LR can move?

Pivot...then begin your movement? Sorry, how is this not cheating?

Sure, you can pivot your vehicle all you like "AS THEY MOVE" (thats a rulebook quote boys and girls). Not BEFORE THEY MOVE.

I'm sorry...and surprised that I'm the first one to call foul on this one.

Bold emphasis mine.

Please show me in the rule book where it says that.

There is nothing preventing you from pivoting on the spot then moving. If I am wrong, please prove me wrong with a ruling and I'll gladly accept it.

Pg 57

Third paragraph, skipping bullet points, first sentence.

Deadshane - The move is legit wheather you agree with it or not. Since you seem to be so adamently against it I suggest you just make a house rule to prevent it rather then trying to twist the verbage of the rules to get the outcome you're looking for.

No need, like I said, if you NEED your LR's to MOVE 14.5" against me in a game rather than what the books state (12")...I'm good with it.

Play on.

The book also says a blast from a missile is max 48 inches and if it scatters it may well go beyond that.

Also the book says you put the flamer template on the tip of the gun but for multi-level buildings, this is noy applied.

I agree that its not the most nice tactic and taking into account you go first, you deployed first so you didn't know where the opponent would deploy... he's not the best tactician! unless initiative was stolen, obviously.

The LR does not move 14.5 inches.. it moves 12.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Pg 57

Third paragraph, skipping bullet points, first sentence.

Thanks Deadshane! I'll read it when I get home.

Deadshane - except it didnt actually move 14.5", based on how the4 BRB defines movement (yuo actually jut pick a point and are consistent with it) - the pivot neve counts as movement in and of itself.

As stated, has been a valid, 100% legal and not at all shady tactic since 3rd ed. 12 years.

Sorry.

Landraider begins a turn 24" away from target.

Landraider ends turn 9.5" away.

How far did the landraider move?

Be careful now. Simple answer please. Don't confuse yourself.

@ Deadshane:

Go ahead and point out, with relevant quotes, where anybody in this entire thread stated at any point in time that this tactic was required to win.

First of all, this tactic is 100% legal.

Second, it's not required to win, like it apparently is in your black-and-white world (where you're either a paragon of virtue or a sneaky WAAC bastard, and there's no middle ground).

It's a legit tactic.

Is it a bastard move, when your opponent doesn't see it coming? Sure, but that's not a bad thing.

(Legal) cleverness is to be rewarded, not vilified, otherwise this might as well just be checkers. All the flavor will be lost from the game if suddenly we're no longer allowed to come up with creative (legal) tactics based on RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Deadshane1 wrote:Landraider begins a turn 24" away from target.

Landraider ends turn 9.5" away.

How far did the landraider move.

As the BRB defines movement, the Land Raider, assuming it pivoted 90 degrees, moved 12".

It's not a complicated concept.

I'm sorry, how far again did the landraider move?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SaintHazard wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:Landraider begins a turn 24" away from target.

Landraider ends turn 9.5" away.

How far did the landraider move.

As the BRB defines movement, the Land Raider, assuming it pivoted 90 degrees, moved 12".

It's not a complicated concept.

Apparently it is.

Landraider is 24" away

If it only moved 12" it should be 12" away.

How is it only 9.5" away?


There is something "complicated" about the way you guys are doing movement.

Oh thats right, you're gaming the system to gain unfair advantage.

You moved your LR over 12". No problem...keep playing...so long as we got that straight.