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Since the distance between the pivot point and the front of the hull (from which movement is measured) is two and a half inches, and the Land Raider pivoted 90 degrees, the Land Raider moved, as "movement" is defined in the BRB, twelve inches.

How is this confusing?

Since it's apparently too confusing, here.

Let me break it down for you.

The Land Raider is 14.5" away from where it wants to move, measured from the SIDE of the hull. The Land Raider pivots 90 degrees. The Land Raider is now 12" away from where it wants to move, measured from the FRONT of the hull.

The Land Raider moves 12".

The Land Raider is now 12" from its starting point. The Land Raider WOULD be 14.5" from its starting point if you'd measured the move (illegally) from the side of the hull, which is not how movement is measured.

Thanks for playing!

Landraider was 24" away from target at the beginning of turn.

Landraider is now 9.5" away from target.

How far again did you move it? My math says you moved 14.5"...please tell me if I need to go back to grade school.

My math is extremely simple, I asked for you not to confuse yourself and give a simple answer...you're confusing yourself.


Either that or simply state that you're gaming the system to gain advantage. Its easy enough.

So what you're doing is illegally measuring your opponent's movement from the side of his hull, not the front, to try and make it look like he's making an illegal move?

You're actually cheating for the purposes of framing someone for cheating.

...and you have the gall to call us cheaters?!

I'm not illegally doing anything, I'm asking how much closer your model has moved toward the target.

Please answer my question.

Do I need to requote it?

I've seen it used in tournaments before, and it works okay. Would never use it in a friendly game though.

Let me put it more simply for you.

When a Land Raider is turned sideways, and you measure from one point on the table to the Land Raider's hull, and it measures 24", the Land Raider can be said to be 24" from that point.

Cue movement phase. You rotate your Land Raider 90 degrees.

Now measure from that same point to the Land Raider.

The distance between the Land Raider and that point is now 21.5".

It's the difference between measuring from the SIDE of the hull (not how movement works) and measuring from the FRONT of the hull (how movement works).

You are correct in that if you meausure from the Land Raider to that point before the movement phase begins, you're going to measure 24".

But once the Land Raider has been pivoted, there is a 2.5" difference between measurement 1 and measurement 2. Measurement 2 is used for movement. Not measurement 1. You can't retroactively measure movement. You measure movement (and this may come as a shock) when you move.

SumYungGui wrote:This is why you subtly deploy your guys one inch away from the end of the deployment zone if you know you're probably not going first. 24" range weapons will use that distance to make themselves at the very outer limit of their range all the time if you watch a 'competitive' game, so that one inch can deny this first turn assault stuff and a round of shooting from entire units.

If they still put their models in base contact or claim they have range you know they're doing something hokey with measurements before the game seriously starts. Call them out on it.

Correct!

This isn't cheating, but by the OP's admission, yes, it's gaming for advantage. That's just how it works.

SaintHazard wrote:Let me put it more simply for you.

When a Land Raider is turned sideways, and you measure from one point on the table to the Land Raider's hull, and it measures 24", the Land Raider can be said to be 24" from that point.

Cue movement phase. You rotate your Land Raider 90 degrees.

Now measure from that same point to the Land Raider.

The distance between the Land Raider and that point is now 21.5".

It's the difference between measuring from the SIDE of the hull (not how movement works) and measuring from the FRONT of the hull (how movement works).

You are correct in that if you meausure from the Land Raider to that point before the movement phase begins, you're going to measure 24".

But once the Land Raider has been pivoted, there is a 2.5" difference between measurement 1 and measurement 2. Measurement 2 is used for movement. Not measurement 1. You can't retroactively measure movement. You measure movement (and this may come as a shock) when you move.

Quite complicated if you ask me.

Normally, when measuring seeing how far something has moved, you could simply measure the distance from it's target at the beginning of the turn, then again at the end of the turn.

I see you've been able to manipulate the system to gain 2.5" of movement. I've got no arguement with you there. I'm not so dense as not to see what you're doing.

You seem to have a problem stating that you're gaming the system for advantage.

Either that or the fact that the rulebooks state that non-fast vehicles can move up to 12" means nothing to you.

You're gaming the system...yes?

If by "gaming the system" you mean "making a perfectly legal maneuver that you didn't see coming" then yes. Does it afford me an advantage? Probably, yeah.

Don't be bitter about it. Learn from it and deploy a couple inches back next time to keep it from happening.

If that's too stressful for you, go play Checkers.

This is a strategy game. Don't be surprised when there's strategy involved.

SaintHazard wrote:Measurement 2 is used for movement. Not measurement 1.

Where is this? Trying to find it.

The moving models example box on page 12 seems to imply otherwise, but honestly it rarely comes up for Tyranids--or maybe I am just missing it.
Or maybe its just the folks I play.

SaintHazard wrote:If by "gaming the system" you mean "making a perfectly legal maneuver that you didn't see coming" then yes. Does it afford me an advantage? Probably, yeah.

Don't be bitter about it. Learn from it and deploy a couple inches back next time to keep it from happening.

If that's too stressful for you, go play Checkers.

This is a strategy game. Don't be surprised when there's strategy involved.

Stressful? You're the one GIANT SIZING AND UNDERLINING your responses. (see, I can do that too! )

By the way, this isnt a strategic move, its a tactical one.

...and I'm happy so long as I got you to admit you're gaming the system.

...and yes, you moved your landraider 14.5"....dont worry, i'm ok with it...You see those melta equipped speeders that are deployed 12" off my line...they're in short range of your LR now, and I dont even have to resort to ruleslawyering trickery to do it. I'm happy.

And if that makes you feel better about yourself, well done you.

I'm going to go back to talking about the game I enjoy playing, unless you want to continue to try to vilify me for playing by the rules?

Totally legit and totally preventable. If you don't want to get charged first turn then just deploy a few inches back from your deployment zone edge. Especially if you only have 18" of space inbetween you.

SaintHazard wrote:And if that makes you feel better about yourself, well done you.

I'm going to go back to talking about the game I enjoy playing, unless you want to continue to try to vilify me for playing by the rules?

No thank you, I'm quite satisfied.

This is actually fairly common in my area. I picked it up from our veteran ork player. Ork Trukks & Battlewagons are very rectangular & it'll usually give us an extra 2-3". Plus being open topped we can disembark from ANY point on the hull so if you rotate 45 instead of 90 the corner will push you slightly further.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:This is actually fairly common in my area. I picked it up from our veteran ork player. Ork Trukks & Battlewagons are very rectangular & it'll usually give us an extra 2-3". Plus being open topped we can disembark from ANY point on the hull so if you rotate 45 instead of 90 the corner will push you slightly further.

That's absolutely wicked. I love open-topped vehicles.

Gonna have to remember this one when I actually have my Orks table-ready.

kirsanth wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Measurement 2 is used for movement. Not measurement 1.

Where is this? Trying to find it.

The moving models example box on page 12 seems to imply otherwise, but honestly it rarely comes up for Tyranids--or maybe I am just missing it.
Or maybe its just the folks I play.

Thats because its something he made up.

Oh, sorry, now I'm done.

Deadshane1 wrote: I need a LR that is able to warp space/time like you guys got.

I'll give you one of my chaos land raiders.

This again? Somebody write to GW and get them to make vehicles perfect squares instead of rectangles. That will solve the problem for the geometrically-challenged.

Deadshane1 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Measurement 2 is used for movement. Not measurement 1.

Where is this? Trying to find it.

The moving models example box on page 12 seems to imply otherwise, but honestly it rarely comes up for Tyranids--or maybe I am just missing it.
Or maybe its just the folks I play.

Thats because its something he made up.

Oh, sorry, now I'm done.

@ Deadshane - Feel free to quote the rulebook and prove me wrong.

@Kirsanth - I do apologize, I don't have the BRB on me at this very moment, but you DO measure movement from the hull. If you've interpreted vehicle movement otherwise, I'd appreciate a BRB quote if you don't mind.

SaintHazard wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

kirsanth wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Measurement 2 is used for movement. Not measurement 1.

Where is this? Trying to find it.

The moving models example box on page 12 seems to imply otherwise, but honestly it rarely comes up for Tyranids--or maybe I am just missing it.
Or maybe its just the folks I play.

Thats because its something he made up.

Oh, sorry, now I'm done.

@ Deadshane - Feel free to quote the rulebook and prove me wrong.

@Kirsanth - I do apologize, I don't have the BRB on me at this very moment, but you DO measure movement from the hull. If you've interpreted vehicle movement otherwise, I'd appreciate a BRB quote if you don't mind.

I'm sorry, I'm with Kirsanth I cannot seem to find "measurement 1" or "measurement 2" anywhere in the index or pages of moving the vehicles.

Could you enlighten us both on what page/paragraph those phrases are used? Or did you just make them up?

Deadshane - you are confusing displacement with movement.

Displacement is the distance between where the vehicle started and where it ended. Movement is how far the front of the model moved. The tactic is entirely legal since you can pivot at any time during your movement, including after moving 0".

I'm sorry you find this distasteful, but you are incorrect as to its legality.

Pay attention. I defined two methods of measurement, one illegal, one legal.

SaintHazard wrote:When a Land Raider is turned sideways, and you measure from one point on the table to the Land Raider's hull, and it measures 24", the Land Raider can be said to be 24" from that point.

This is "SaintHazard's Example of Directional Distance Measurement Number One," or, for the purpose of simplicity, "measurement 1."

SaintHazard wrote:Cue movement phase. You rotate your Land Raider 90 degrees.

Now measure from that same point to the Land Raider.

The distance between the Land Raider and that point is now 21.5".

This is "SaintHazard's Example of Directional Distance Measurement Number Two," or, previously, "measurement 2."

You don't measure movement before the movement phase. SaintHazard's Example of Directional Distance Measurement Number One is not made in the Movement phase and is therefore not the legal method for measuring distance for the purpose of movement. SaintHazard's Example of Directional Distance Measurement Number Two is made in the Movement phase, immediately prior to movement, and is therefore the legal way to measure movement.

You know.

Before you move.

Better?

Let ME explain something here. (thanx saint, now that I've tried it, I like it.)

This whole issue seems to come pretty much from tankshocking. There the rules for tank-shocking state that you pivot before your move then move the vehicle.

Since we're not talking about Tank Shocks here, we wont bother with all that.

The rules on moving vehicles state that "Vehicles can turn any number of times as they move, just like any other model. Vehicles turn by pivoting on the spot about their centre-point."

K, thats AS THEY MOVE, not BEFORE THEY MOVE.

So, any momentum gained toward any target on the board after you place your cheeto dusted hand on that model can (and probably will) be considered movement by your opponent.

If a target is 24" away before you lay your hand on the model, it stands to reason that your landraider should be no better than 12" away from that same target at the end of its movement.

Anything other than that is ruleslawyering gaming. Notice how much text it takes for SaintHazard to explain to me "how" he's moved his vehicle. All I asked was for him to tell me how far his tank would've moved in this instance....

Landraiders move 12"

Target measures 24" away at beginning of turn.

After movement Landraider is 9.5" away.

How far did the landraider move?


Begin long text of ruleslawyering drivel that noone's interested in.

I repeat...for the nosebleeds...

Landraiders move 12"

Target measures 24" away at beginning of turn.

After movement Landraider is 9.5" away.

How far again did your landraider move toward its target? Simple math states its 14.5 inches closer.

..............................

The thing is, I'm not going to argue with the whole of dakka's "internet expertise" that think that this sort of thing is kosher in a tournament gaming atmosphere much less a friendly game. (which is what ALL games should be to begin with)

You guys want to "game the system" in order to get your piddly 2.5 inches extra movement with a tank...knock yourself out. Thats fine, but dont kid yourself in thinking that its a straight-up or fair way to play against someone who didnt expect it that you sprung it on. That person thought your tank could only move 12", its now 14.5 inches closer to his squad you want to charge with termies. He's going to be pissed off. By doing that to an unsuspecting player who set up models for a fun game of 40k that makes YOU a loser regardless of who wins or his disposition.

I let people get away with this sort of sheisty stuff in games because in the end "who cares" its just a game, and if you've gotta spend 15 minutes explaining your position to me after I simply show you on a ruler how far your tank went...well..."dude, you can have it, just take it."

I suggest you guys sit back and reevaluate your reasons for playing 40k if you take such a staunch and immovable position on a subject like this. The game designers meant for LR's to move 12". If someone is upset after your LR moves 14.5" closer to his models, he has every right to question your motives. Me? If I did it and someone questioned me on moving in this manner...I would take back the 2.5" because they didnt expect it. (I wouldnt do it in the first place as its gameing the system for advantage but thats neither here nor there) Why would I take it back? Because I would rather my opponent feel that the game was fair on all levels and that he was beaten (or won) without any issues or rules points being argued.

That's what 40k is about, not scrutinising the rules for every little advantage you can squeeze out of them.

With that, this arguement is making me sick. People, those of you that beleive in doing this, take your little "pivot bonus" cause thats what it is. A bonus for parking sideways and pivoting before your move (even though the rules on vehicular movement state you turn "as you move" but thats beside my point). You're saying that the 12" that your LR gets isnt enough for you and you're going to try and "get over" by moving a little closer to your target. You need it, feel free.

2.5 inches isnt going to matter at the end of the day, but you need 'em...so take 'em. Don't kid yourself though...you're gaming the system...and you better declare a tank shock beforehand if you wanna be REAL sure you can pull it off.

Grow up...its a game.

No offence shane, but your point is more dead than hitler as it stands.
The LR is only moving 12" in theory.
The pivot uses up no movement.

Old trick, but still 100% legal to do.
Granted its by no means friendly, but since when have most comp's been a friendly enviroment?


Just a case of working around it and exploiting it. (as you said, melta range in effect has gone up)



This should however be amusing to see with the stormravens as they tend to be a tad bigger





so, whats next on the agenda, BA no-longer get flying dreads as they arent fair?

If someone plays this tactic on me then fair play, i have set-up in a dumb way and they exploited it as they should have.
All that has happened in that case is i have been out-played, not cheated.


the staggering units (X formation) for multiple cover thread springs to mind here
Yet another trick, but legal.

Also, keep in mind dark eldar raiders.
They will be fun with fleeting wyches and this trick




Edit:

Thats fine, but dont kid yourself in thinking that its a straight-up or fair way to play against someone who didnt expect it that you sprung it on

So we cant do unexpected things anymore?
Im sorry, but thats just pure gak.
The whole idea of a good tactic would be one thats unexpected as it wont be countered.
If they know what your doing then they set up ready for it, and there goes your plan.

Whats next, permission before i can use storm shields since they have a good ++ save ontop of a very nice 2+ ?

Keeping this in mind next time I face my brother. The Imperium of Man will crumble yet!

Shane,

Would you be fine if your opponent had simply placed his landraider 12" from its starting position keeping its side facing you? I see a lot of players doing that as it speeds up play. What about if he then pivoted at the end?

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:No offence shane, but your point is more dead than hitler as it stands.
The LR is only moving 12" in theory.
The pivot uses up no movement.

Old trick, but still 100% legal to do.
Granted its by no means friendly, but since when have most comp's been a friendly enviroment?


Just a case of working around it and exploiting it. (as you said, melta range in effect has gone up)



This should however be amusing to see with the stormravens as they tend to be a tad bigger





so, whats next on the agenda, BA no-longer get flying dreads as they arent fair?

If someone plays this tactic on me then fair play, i have set-up in a dumb way and they exploited it as they should have.
All that has happened in that case is i have been out-played, not cheated.


the staggering units (X formation) for multiple cover thread springs to mind here
Yet another trick, but legal.

Also, keep in mind dark eldar raiders.
They will be fun with fleeting wyches and this trick

You didnt read a thing I just wrote, did you?

Deadshane1 wrote:(clipped)

Ever heard of "free rotation?"

Go ahead, look it up in the BRB.

I'll wait.

Those two words nullify your entire argument.

"Free rotation."

Pivoting on the spot does not count as movement.

This is one of those rules you just sort of expect people to know, and expect not to have to explain it to them.

And if you want to come up with long-winded posts trying to justifying what is essentially cheating (robbing me of free rotation, or measuring my movement retroactively based on pre-pivot placement), that simply means I'm not the one who's twisting the rules to his advantage, you are.

And if you want to then blow off the fact that you're wrong by calling me a ruleslawyering WAAC bastard (instead of, oh, I don't know, realizing there is a gray area in between Mister Rogers and Adolf Hitler), that's your prerogative.

No one is going to take you seriously if you do, though. Fair warning.

Oh look, it's this thread again.

Search YMTC, this has been done millions of times.

Short Version: It's legal. If you don't like it, tough.