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This is just a simple modification...

First off, the profile says that the Hotshot Lasgun fires a 'much more powerful, and more penetrating, shot.'
Now, the profile for a HSL is Range:18" S3 AP3 Rapid Fire
The text and profile are contradictory of one another in that it says that the HSL is more powerful than a normal lasgun, yet remains a meager S3. However, the AP matches the profile, being much better than a normal Lasgun.
What I am proposing is that the HSL gets a boost to S4 for a meager points cost of about 1-2pts per model.

Comments?

I would say that the fact that a hotshot lasgun can blow through power armour does indicate that it is much more powerful.

Interesting. I'd argue the same point as AzurePhoenix, if only there was some alternate firing stats that the HSLs could use. It could easily be justified in the fluff as the Stormtroopers changing the power settings on their weapons to make for larger beams that cause much more tissue damage while sacrificing armor penetration. I'd recommend the following stats for this firing mode.

Range-18 S-5 AP-5 Type-Rapid Fire

Even though they would have the same firepower as Tau Firewarriors, it would make them much more versatile. Increasing their strength to 4 could arguably overpower them against marines due to the combined BS 4 and 4+ wounding with no armor saves, though it could also arguably make them a worthwhile choice instead by making it preferable that they actually shoot their guns instead of just being a very inefficient Melta/Plasma DSing delivery. The Strength 5 would cut down Orks, Eldar, and other IG armies pretty nicely. This is just an idea I'm throwing out here, it's not necessarily the best way to solve the situation, It's just what I think might be.

I agree with the OP.

They need an str boost, Id even allow a ap 4 debuff to gain str 4, they currently suck bad, and their reduced range makes matters worse. The fact that these guys cost as much as marines is quite bad.

If they T4 3+ marine stats theyd be quite good, but mathhammer says they actually have the same survivability versus marines as marines do to them, making them epic fail.

Rapid firing, 10 storm troopers kill an average of 3 marines. A terrible average. The surviving 7 marines will most likey kill 3 storm troopers back.

And, unlike marines, ST can only be chosen as an Elite choice, further restricting their usage.

They should get rid of hot-shot lasguns...
just give them Hellguns with improved stats/rules (hellgun is a much better name)

Hellgun
Range: 24"
Str: 3
Ap: 3
Type: Rapid Fire

Special Rule/Equipment: Crack shots/Targeters

all Storm Troopers are expert marksmen, trained to aim for the weakpoints in their opponents armour
(this could also be some form of targeting optic)

when shooting, any roll's of 6 to hit automatically wound.

the Hellgun, much like the storm trooper himself is a weapon of surgical precision. The highly focused laser beam of the hellgun is able to punch through all but the strongest of armour, but lacks the massive tissue damage of bolt-weaponry.

A friend and I have debated this heavily. One of two things will placate me if they change the statline of the HSL. Either A) increase the strength, or B) lose rapid fire, make it pinning. I know that stormtroopers can have a mission declared where the first shots fired are pinning, but that's only a one trick pony. Plus, as it stands now, the HSL is powerful enough to punch through fancy power armor, yet only gently tickle a marines ribcage.

Zetan49 wrote:They should get rid of hot-shot lasguns...
just give them Hellguns with improved stats/rules (hellgun is a much better name)

Hellgun
Range: 24"
Str: 3
Ap: 3
Type: Rapid Fire

Special Rule/Equipment: Crack shots/Targeters

all Storm Troopers are expert marksmen, trained to aim for the weakpoints in their opponents armour
(this could also be some form of targeting optic)

when shooting, any roll's of 6 to hit automatically wound.

the Hellgun, much like the storm trooper himself is a weapon of surgical precision. The highly focused laser beam of the hellgun is able to punch through all but the strongest of armour, but lacks the massive tissue damage of bolt-weaponry.

So it's almost like rending... hmmm, it makes sense seeing as they are the ELITE of the IG.

Jaon wrote:Rapid firing, 10 storm troopers kill an average of 3 marines. A terrible average. The surviving 7 marines will most likey kill 3 storm troopers back.

How did you work that one out?

20 HSLG shots = 13.33 hits = 4.44 wounds = 4.44 dead
11.12 (from he remaining 5.56 marines) bolter shots = 7.41 hits = 4.94 wounds = 2.47 dead

The chances of scoring a kill are acually the same given he same amount of shots...

20 HSLG shots = 13.33 hits = 4.44 wounds = 4.44 dead
20 bolter shots = 13.33 hits = 8.88 wounts = 4.44 dead

------

The main downside to HSLG is not the S, as the AP nicely balances this out... its cover...
Maybe all cover saves taken from wounds from a HSLG could be at -1, or on a 6 to wound no cover may be taken.
Upping the S or adding "almost rending" would not help with the main problem this weapon faces.

Also, crackshot is already used in another codex, so how about sureshot or similar?

My buddy and I have changed the Hot Shot Lasgun slightly. First of all, got rid of the crap name and call them Hellguns again. Next, changed it to STR3 AP3 18" Assault 2. This makes up for the high points cost of Stormtroopers to an extent, while keeping them still somewhat worth the points cost.

It worked for our last game we played while still being balanced.

I personally hate the name hotshot lasguns. Why not call them overcharged lasguns or better yet, hellguns like before. Hot shot packs are used in long lases. Its sniper ammo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I personally hate the name hotshot lasguns. Why not call them overcharged lasguns or better yet, hellguns like before. Hot shot packs are used in long lases. Its sniper ammo.

The name is DUMB. Go back to Hellgun!

I was thinking of this:
At the beginning of the owning players movement phase, they may declare to adjust a squad of stormtroopers Hellguns.

Hellgun S: X AP: X Assault 2 Range: 20"

S3 AP3
S4 AP5
S5 AP-

I'm sorry but if a Hot shot ever becomes str 4 then it better get fething hot becuz then they will have the same stat line as a vengance round from Sternguards which get freaking hot..

so... you want to give guardsmen bolters with half-range kraken bolts ammo?

Fun.

Seriously, hotshot lasguns are a beautiful weapon, I'd actually think that they'd be better as S5 AP3, keeping range 18".

this makes them alot more powerful, and a true threat, and might mean people want to field them.

though, S5 AP3 would be unexplainably unfair. it is shooting lazorabs, not huge bolts made of molten slags.

[if someone gets the reference, they get a cookies].

Otherwise, hot shot lasguns are a shining light in a pit of darkness - darkness, consumed by the games finest cannon for doing abseloutely nothing the whole game.

After a few dice test rolls, I have subdued my doubt of the Hellgun (for the most part). I did the test using the simple Stormtroopers w/ nothing but Hellguns and Space Marines w/ nothing but bolters.

The first few tests I did was letting the Stormtroopers get a rapid-fire off and on average (in MY tests; it may just be luck) they killed about 4-5 SM, who then rapid-fired back and killed on average 2-3 (the rest making their armour save)
The second set of tests I did let the SM get their rapid-fire off, in which they still killed about 3-5 stormtroopers, who then killed about 3-5 SM.
This seemed fair seeing as a squad of 10 SM is about the same as a ST squad (which is 165 w/ no upgrades), + they get a doctrine. Pinning, anyone?

I don't have any fancy dice rolling program (although I do know how to calculate odds), but this seemed conclusive to myself, and am now satisfied.
The only thing that still bothers me is the range of the Hellgun and the fact that it is not Assault 2, seeing as the Stormtroopers are the elite of the IG... (and their intense points cost) .

But, for now, they are my pride and joy (1-3 squads in my lists against SM and the likes).

i would want them to have rending or to have a str. increase. i like them but they arent that good which makes me a sad panda

Sageheart wrote:i would want them to have rending or to have a str. increase. i like them but they arent that good which makes me a sad panda

Well, I was obliged to say the same thing, untill I tested it. It became overpowered for the points cost and I reverted to just questioning the Rapid Fire rule and the range.

Edit: SM squad annihilated in one round of shooting...

And then a devastator squad with 4 Heavy Bolters completley Annihalate the Stormtrooper squad...

Riddick40k wrote:And then a devastator squad with 4 Heavy Bolters completley Annihalate the Stormtrooper squad...

Lol, so true

Riddick40k wrote:And then a devastator squad with 4 Heavy Bolters completley Annihalate the Stormtrooper squad...

Your own fault for standing in from of them, there not exactly mobile firepower now are they...

dayve110 wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:And then a devastator squad with 4 Heavy Bolters completley Annihalate the Stormtrooper squad...

Your own fault for standing in from of them, there not exactly mobile firepower now are they...

Thank You Dayve110!!!!

Now back to the OP, take your math hammer number crunching vs. Space Marines and toss a pair of flammers into the mix. Let us know what the results are and then you can tell us how much the Storm Troopers "Need To Be Improved". The Hotshot\Hellguns only flaw that I can see is that it isn't made availible to anyone in the entire Imperium outside of the Kaserkin Storm Troopers. Adding this mobile bit of dakka power to CCS Bodyguards or IG Sergents would devistate Marine players even if you leave the stat line as is.

Along the lines of hotshot in itself, seeing as how Ratlings are Elite choices i would say that their guns should still have the sniper rule but have ap3 to it, i mean why in the world would you even use ratlings without atleast a better gun? honestly?

Are you saying that ratlings be given 36" hot-shot snipers?

...meh, I could see it

Yes they should, i mean seriously? if i'm taking an Elite choice i wanna kill gak with it, and seeing that it'll always wound on a 4+ they would do alot more damage then a stormtrooper squad

Riddick40k wrote:Yes they should, i mean seriously? if i'm taking an Elite choice i wanna kill gak with it, and seeing that it'll always wound on a 4+ they would do alot more damage then a stormtrooper squad

Everything does more damage than a Stormtrooper squad, points-wise

TheMostSlyFox wrote:

Riddick40k wrote:Yes they should, i mean seriously? if i'm taking an Elite choice i wanna kill gak with it, and seeing that it'll always wound on a 4+ they would do alot more damage then a stormtrooper squad

Everything does more damage than a Stormtrooper squad, points-wise

Truth be told

Riddick40k wrote:Yes they should, i mean seriously? if i'm taking an Elite choice i wanna kill gak with it, and seeing that it'll always wound on a 4+ they would do alot more damage then a stormtrooper squad

Insisting on small numbers of lethal infantry for the Imperial Guard makes me suspect you might have misunderstood their concept.




Meanwhile, Storm Troopers and the hotshot guns are alright, stats wise. I like how many are complaining they're called hotshot now and want a return to hellguns, given how many people complained about changing from hotshot to hellguns last time around.

Stormtroopers aren't great because they're too expensive for what you get. The options are to keep the points cost and make them rather stupidly superior to marines, or to drop the points cost.

I suggest that instead of a whopping 16pts a model (17 for original squad), they drop it to 12 or 13. This reduces the overall points cost by about 25%, which in my mind makes them a worthwhile Elite choice for the guard if facing MEQ.

I don't know why I am so enthralled by Stormtroopers though, as I have three 10 man squads w/ meltas + plasmas. I realize that for the points, I could take another Russ w/ sponsons, but they're just so... cool

Sadley i would think the Russ would do better