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grayspark wrote:

jp400 wrote:My two cents.

16 Pt StormTroopers are over cost. Adding 2-5 pts each would make these guys cost 18-21 Points each. Nobody plays with them as they currently are, making them more expensive will not fix this.

Plenty of people I know play them.

It's called you deepstrike them with Plasma or Melta. They work great that way, just not the way people want to use them.

So your solution is turning them into 16+ point suicide drop troops.... yeah no. Not a great idea.

@sageheart: dont worry, i didnt think of you as a jerk for saying that, I appreciate the concern and thank you for welcoming me to dakka

With regards to the stormtroopers, I agree with what grayspark says about the points cost, 16pts just makes them too expensive IMO, so what I often do is just take a five man squad or two and that shaves a lot of points of, but you dont get nearly as much fire power (but it is still remarkably effective but that may have been a one off )

What I liked about the old stormtroopers the most was the 'grenadiers' doctrine, where you can use a squad of stormtroopers as a troops choice, with the previous hellgun rules they made very good frontline soldiers, but with the hot-shot rules in the 'grenadier' doctrine it may prove to be an unattractive option.

With all the mission speciality things they already have, and their price cost, why not give them a new mission that gives them back their hellguns or a new hellgun like the one I described before:
str: 4 ap: 3 Assault 2 Range: 18

This mission that gives them the new guns would be optional (like all the other missions they have) and if people so wished to have the guns in exchange for the troopers' other specialities then they should be allowed to

That would give the troopers more of a reason to be so expensive, and with those new guns the stormtroopers could gain in popularity by quite a bit (not to say they aren't popular now, im sure quite a lot of players like the stromtroopers the way they are now).

They really are too expensive right now. they are just weak SM for the cost of about a SM, so it isn't really well thoughout. they need to be cheaper or have something extra to make them worth their points. I use them now, but always feel like they are too costly and i shouldn't be using them haah, i would rather not feel that way with a unit which is interesting and can be good.

maybe they'll fix them with the Inquisitor books

jp400 wrote:

grayspark wrote:

jp400 wrote:My two cents.

16 Pt StormTroopers are over cost. Adding 2-5 pts each would make these guys cost 18-21 Points each. Nobody plays with them as they currently are, making them more expensive will not fix this.

Plenty of people I know play them.

It's called you deepstrike them with Plasma or Melta. They work great that way, just not the way people want to use them.

So your solution is turning them into 16+ point suicide drop troops.... yeah no. Not a great idea.

I can have a 60pt (or 70pt cannot remember) suicide Drop troops with my Elysian army, thats fun. But Stormtroopers should have at least a 4 to 6 point decrease (say 11 points), make them fairer, since the old stormtroopers had a fairly good weapon for 10 points each.

jp400 wrote:

grayspark wrote:

jp400 wrote:My two cents.

16 Pt StormTroopers are over cost. Adding 2-5 pts each would make these guys cost 18-21 Points each. Nobody plays with them as they currently are, making them more expensive will not fix this.

Plenty of people I know play them.

It's called you deepstrike them with Plasma or Melta. They work great that way, just not the way people want to use them.

So your solution is turning them into 16+ point suicide drop troops.... yeah no. Not a great idea.

Really? It works incredibly well.

It's not like I'm taking any more than 5, and with the re-rolls to deepstrike they really kill a lot.

I start using the idea after seeing the "Blood Conquerors" using them. Check those battle reports out sometime, I think you'd be impressed.

Really low-cost unit with high killing power.

grayspark wrote:

jp400 wrote:

grayspark wrote:

jp400 wrote:My two cents.

16 Pt StormTroopers are over cost. Adding 2-5 pts each would make these guys cost 18-21 Points each. Nobody plays with them as they currently are, making them more expensive will not fix this.

Plenty of people I know play them.

It's called you deepstrike them with Plasma or Melta. They work great that way, just not the way people want to use them.

So your solution is turning them into 16+ point suicide drop troops.... yeah no. Not a great idea.

Really? It works incredibly well.

It's not like I'm taking any more than 5, and with the re-rolls to deepstrike they really kill a lot.

I start using the idea after seeing the "Blood Conquerors" using them. Check those battle reports out sometime, I think you'd be impressed.

Really low-cost unit with high killing power.

You are talking to a guy that played Drop Guard all last edition. I know how effective these types of units can be. However, even with a melta or plasma gun I was NOT paying 16+ points per model. Paying that much for a unit that lands and then is expected to immediatly die is utter insanity.

And to sit there and say that it's a "really low-cost unit" is just as nutty.

I agree with jp400, they are too expensive to be used as a suicide unit, even if it were a five man squad, if they all died then thats around 100pts or more of your army wasted!

In my experience, Stormtroopers must be used in situations where they will perform best, not plummet them into a random thing that needs killing and hope for the best (although that could be more viable if they were 12pts a model at least).

Love the models and the fluff but this is what needs to happen before I'll use them more than once in a blue moon:

Upgrade the standard weaponry
Hot-shot Lasgun - S3 AP3 R18" Assault 2

OR

Give them Bolters and Bolt Pistols instead. Suck it, Sisters!

OR

Allow them to take 3 Special Weapons.

Make them slightly harder to be butchered in CC
Flashbangs - A combination of blinding light and deafening explosion causes all but the hardiest of foes to become disoriented and can stifle even the most determined of assaults. Counts as Defensive Grenades. In addition, a unit assaulting, or being assaulted by, Stormtroopers must take a Toughness test (using majority Toughness). If failed, the enemy unit's HTH attacks are resolved at -1WS and I1.

OR

Walked Right into It - Protecting their flank with traps and snare wires is all but second nature for these elite warriors. The first enemy unit that assaults a unit of Stormtroopers immediately receives 2D6 S4 AP6 hits before combat is resolved.

Make use of the ridiculously awesome orders mechanic
Subcutaneous Micro-Vox - Due to the nature of their operations, Stormtroopers rarely keep in visual contact with Command Squads. For this reason, all Stormtroopers receive high-tech implants that allow for coded, discrete communications. Stormtrooper units are able to ignore the restrictions of range and LOS with regards to orders from IG officers.

OR

Let's show these Planks how it's done! - Stormtroopers have nothing but contempt for the standard Guardsman and constantly strive to illustrate their superiority. As such, their knowledge of battlefield tactics rivals that of even seasoned officers. Storm Trooper Sergeants have the ability to give a single order to their own squad per turn; They have access to the 'Bring it Down!', 'Fire on My Target!', and 'Move, Move, Move!' orders.

DoW

EDIT: Somewhat Necro... but still a fresh issue, I feel.

Not really a Necro as much as an overdue opinion
I do see the logic behind your ideas, and both DoW and the fluff make ST feel more superior to what the current rules are. I don't think you could implement all of these w/o increasing the points (because of balance issues and QQing), but I'm sure I would use a few the next time I play just to expiriment a little.
Thanks for your input!

S4 AP4 Range 18 Assault 2, -3 points

So for 13 points you get a unit that works better against all armies, and gives you the mobile firepower that ST are supposed to have.

FWIW, the ST unit I'm building will be 7 guys + 2 Plasma Guns. Middle ground in terms of size, but it's big enough to kill a combat squadded SM objective holder, and the plasma gives it a AT role vs non-SM.

personally, i think Hellguns/Hotshot lasguns shouldn't be AP3 at all, but rather be Str3, Ap- rapidfire with Rending. keep the 18" range.

still allows them to penetrate units with armor, but not as reliably. also makes the lasgun effective against light tanks.

Make them Strength 4 rapid fire, that will be even when you think about the point value

I think the main reason that I personally hate the hellgun is it's horrific range. In all the fluff including games such as DoW, it can fire at a far superior range to many other weapons (including some tau arsenal), spare the sniper rifles of the various armies. If I were to only change ONE thing about the ST unit in the tabletop game, it would be to increase its range to at LEAST 24" Assault 2 (or RF2, seeing as even SM have to sit still to fire 'maximum carnage', which is still BS in my fluffy mind )