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The Russ could do better, but one shot from one unit can get rid of a Russ. It takes at least ten shots (not counting template weapons) from a unit to get rid of a Stormtrooper squad. On topic though, I really don't think upping the strength of the weapon to 4, and keeping everything else the same would really break anything. I would gladly pay 15 points per model if that were the case.

You have to keep in mind the 'missions' they have really can make a differance in objective based games. Being able to Deep Strike into an enemy held objective area on turn 4 and possibly clean thier troops out by the end of turn 5 while his army is tied up fighting the rest of your army on the other side of the board may get you punched in the face, but it's still a win.

The real issue seems to be that the Storm Troopers aren't named right, they would be better off if they were called Commando's or Fedaya'kin (horrible attempt at spelling) something simular to that.

Riddick40k wrote:Sadley i would think the Russ would do better

Indeed it would... but sadly I have only 3

Someone asked why would a weapon be able to peirce power armor but not damage the marine beneath it. Its not that the marine isnt getting hurt. he just isnt getting killed. look at real world armor peircing rounds. they make smaller hole in soft targets then a normal bullet would. armor pericing rounds are less lethial to soft targets then convitional bullets. so if a hotshot just fires an armor peircing version of the normal lasgun it wouldnt neccessarily be more lethal.

Well, if the issue is more about making Storm Troopers useful by boosting their weapon strength, I would suggest, for free, a Strength boost to S6 for free. Stormies are just too expensive for the fact that they are made of paper mache.

I wouldn't mind:

18" Range Str 4 Ap 3 Rapid Fire, Gets Hot!

eNvY wrote:I wouldn't mind:

18" Range Str 4 Ap 3 Rapid Fire, Gets Hot!

That just adds to the problem imo...
Im not saying that ST need a weapon change, they need a weapon BOOST
The Gets Hot! Special rule would apply IMO (again) if it was
24" S6 AP3 Rapid Fire...

White Ninja wrote:Someone asked why would a weapon be able to peirce power armor but not damage the marine beneath it. Its not that the marine isnt getting hurt. he just isnt getting killed. look at real world armor peircing rounds. they make smaller hole in soft targets then a normal bullet would. armor pericing rounds are less lethial to soft targets then convitional bullets. so if a hotshot just fires an armor peircing version of the normal lasgun it wouldnt neccessarily be more lethal.

This makes my brain hurt...

If it's powerful enough to punch through power armor, I just think it would be at least S4 so that it could wound a marine a little easier to reflect that armor piercing strength.

Guy's, they definitely need to be upped to Str 4, cause against my orks they do basically nothing, what with Orks having Toughness 4 and all.

They aren't meant to be shot at Orcs...

They were meant to be the way they were meant to be, whether or not GW overpriced them.

I personally think if they lowered the price on StormTroopers then Str 3 Ap3.

and Gets Hot? GW seems to like to limit that.

CrashUSAR wrote:

White Ninja wrote:Someone asked why would a weapon be able to peirce power armor but not damage the marine beneath it. Its not that the marine isnt getting hurt. he just isnt getting killed. look at real world armor peircing rounds. they make smaller hole in soft targets then a normal bullet would. armor pericing rounds are less lethial to soft targets then convitional bullets. so if a hotshot just fires an armor peircing version of the normal lasgun it wouldnt neccessarily be more lethal.

This makes my brain hurt...

If it's powerful enough to punch through power armor, I just think it would be at least S4 so that it could wound a marine a little easier to reflect that armor piercing strength.

Picture it this way. It is powerful enough to pierce the armour, but once it's gone through that armour. The majority of that strength is gone.

CrashUSAR wrote:

White Ninja wrote:Someone asked why would a weapon be able to peirce power armor but not damage the marine beneath it. Its not that the marine isnt getting hurt. he just isnt getting killed. look at real world armor peircing rounds. they make smaller hole in soft targets then a normal bullet would. armor pericing rounds are less lethial to soft targets then convitional bullets. so if a hotshot just fires an armor peircing version of the normal lasgun it wouldnt neccessarily be more lethal.

This makes my brain hurt...

If it's powerful enough to punch through power armor, I just think it would be at least S4 so that it could wound a marine a little easier to reflect that armor piercing strength.

I think of it this way, piercing armor and killing the SM inside of it are two differant objectives. Peircing the armor is as simple as increasing the power\frequency of the beam enough to burn through the armor, but if you burn a hole even straight through a Space Marine then all you have is a slightley more angry Space Marine witth a hole in him. In order to do a lethal amount of damage you need to slice and dice his redundent organs until he goes into shock or you kill the brain. The same would be said about the Orks, you could shoot him with the stronger laser beam but it still won't be enough damage unless you start cutting into important bits. Where as with a Guardsmen, Tau or Eldar for instance they would simply not be able to take as much pain and would be on the ground faster then an Ork or a Marine. What I'm trying to say is that the Strength stat of a weapon isn't necessarily a newtonian reflection of it's power but it is instead a measure of its lethality. <- This is all an attempt to defend GW's logic by the way, how did I do?

That IS the best explanation of the difference between Strength and Penetration.

Think about it this way: hollow point bullets are deadlier due to their design (expands upon impact, thus damaging more bodily tissue and be less likely to penetrate all the way through, thus keeping the bullet inside of the victim), but they suck at penetrating armor. FMJ bullets aren't as deadly (does not damage as much bodily tissue, more likely to go through a target), but they penetrate armor better.

grayspark wrote:They aren't meant to be shot at Orcs...

They were meant to be the way they were meant to be, whether or not GW overpriced them.

I personally think if they lowered the price on StormTroopers then Str 3 Ap3.

and Gets Hot? GW seems to like to limit that.

My bad, thought you meant you encouraged it...

Why the hell would hotshot lasguns have the Gets Hot! special rule?

Just because it has "hot" in the name doesn't mean that the weapon itself is getting so hot that touching it can burn flesh or anything.

I agree a Gets Hot or Jamming rule would just balance out any increase in strength of the weapon for a zero sum game, we are suggesting improvements to the Storm Troopers to qualify them as Elites.

I still think that with flammers and the Special Missions rule that Storm Troopers are at least the equal of Marines justifying their points, even though it puts them in a limited scope for usefulness. I've said it before the biggest mistake GW made with Storm Troopers is their name, they are in fact Special Forces not like in the movies or comic book sense but in real life.

It just occured to me but what if they had a special rule that specifically allowed them to capture objectives even when otherwise, only Troops are allowed to? They would still be Elites because that's the slot they would take up but would count as Troops for deteremining objective control. This to me is more in line with what they are, which is Special Forces.

ComputerGeek01 wrote:I agree a Gets Hot or Jamming rule would just balance out any increase in strength of the weapon for a zero sum game, we are suggesting improvements to the Storm Troopers to qualify them as Elites.

GHAH!
I don't know about you, but I don't like half of my squad dying from firing their regular weapons at rapid fire range...
Gets Hot! or Jamming would just make them 100x worse, even if you game them a meager ST increase! There are a few key factors that say that could never happen:
1. The fluff; read some books people!
2. I never knew an electrically powered weapon could get 'jammed' unless the user cuts the cable or something like that
3. The points: since when does a 165 point unit have an 18" Rapid Fire S4 AP3 Gets Hot! weapon?

Like I said before, if they gave the gun an uber boost to like 24" Rapid Fire S9 AP3, THEN Gets Hot! would be reasonable. Seeing as that is game-breaking, all I'm saying atm is just a points decrease to about 11-13 points a model, stats stay the same...

I think of it this way, Guardsmen have veterans who do alot better job then a storm trooper squad.. when you can a squad that can have 3 special weapons or 2 special weapons and a heavy weapon with a sergent that can have a power fist and plasma pistol plus having the entire squad with carapace that ride around in either a chimera or valkeryie and also have the same stat line as a storm trooper and alot cheaper... I think they balanced out the storm troopers quite nicley....

More accurately, I think they overbalanced it.

Melissia wrote:More accurately, I think they overbalanced it.

Isn't that the truth...

I haven't read all the thread (sorry ) However if they replaced the word 'powerful' with 'focused' would this thread have started?

I don't know. I think hitting on 4's and killing marines on 5's is not enough to wipe out a Marine unit without support. As for points they have AP3 pistols and a CCW, and the option of taking 2 plasmas (not to mention the SGT's plasma pistol as well) - which is more than can be said for Tactical Marines (although they obviously they are not as tough) and the Behind Enemy Lines could be killer to any SM/CSM unit when used in conjunction with a supporting unit. They could pwn a Marine unit in a turn- it all depends on how lucky they were with those plasma's...

As for the AP would anyone take them if it were any less? Probably not. If Hot-shot lasguns were changed then perhaps something similar to the principle of the meltagun (if within half range counts as AP3, if other then 5)? It's tricky. Would you rather have a higher strength weapon that had less AP? Then people would complain they had very few things capable of killing Maarines/Aspects etc...

Perhaps they are over-priced for some but I think 10 points (twice that of a normal Guardsman) certainly not enough considering all the gear and the Special Operations rules they get...and anything between 11 and 14 is swings and roundabouts...so why not 16? I think they're okay as is...all in consideration...

I've been using the Imperial Guard for about 3 years now and have two squads of stormtroopers in my army.

Throughout that time I have found that the stormtroopers always perform well, particularly with the old rules: str.3 ap.5 range.24 and so on.
With the new rules though they now play in a slightly different field, originally they could be fielded with confidence as frontline troops, but now they are much more of a deep strike option in IMO.
In this one game I was in I got to use both squads (took up 370pts! ) and deep striked them on the last turn, scatter didnt happen and both squads landed where I needed them, one squad landed right next to a squad of Chaos Terminators (3 + a lord) and rapid-fired them with a plasmagun and their Hot-Shot Lasguns and killed them all
The other squad shot at and killed 6 of 10 chaos marines in a nearby enemy squad.

Overall very successful considering that the terminators were contesting an objective that we needed to get

When the new rule for the Hot-Shot lasguns came out I actually thought "Awesome! their ap is brilliant now!", then I saw what range they were

Previous replies in this forum are saying that 'With Great Ap Comes Great Power', and they are right IMO. The fact that these guns are supposed to be 'more powerful' than the humble lasgun means that they should have a higher strength to symbolise this. Increasing the strength to 5 would be too high, but it may be acceptable if it were given the Gets Hot! rule. But I think making it strength 4 and keeping the ap 3 would be good, but with the range they have I would say make the guns assault 2, that would represent how the stormtroopers have been trained to use the guns far better than normal guardsmen, rivaling the marksmenship of that of a Space Marine.

And also the new name is just rubbish, I mean really? 'Hot-Shot' Lasgun, they so could have thought of a better name, personally I really liked the name hellguns, but if they had a problem with that name, why not call them something like 'Quasar' Lasgun. (Dont know what a Quasar is? Look it up in Wikipedia, its the 'Quasar' result, not the comic or the band).

The stats should be:
Str: 4 Ap: 3 Assault 2 Range: 18

That is what I think would be the best for the gun and make it awesome (and properly useful) again

And in terms of the points for the models, yes they are quite over priced, they should lower it but not by too much, so how about 14pts per model, or 12pts (lowest option). This would make the stormtroopers a better choice when choosing between Veterans or Stormtroopers (when I can I use both )

Great comment! and welcome to dakka, but i should warn you that you commented on a three month old thread which could be considered being a necro. If you do that too much some people may get annoyed.

on another note: I like what you said about stormtroopers, i personally use them as an outflanking force in a chimera. You are correct though, they are a behind enemy lines type of unit. i thought the AP was sick when i first saw them, but the range does suck. they really need to be a bit less points, str 4, I wouldn't think making them assault 2 is a big deal, i would raise the range a bit. Overall I like them, they are for close quarter firefights and can really work out well if, as you shown, get close enough to knock out those important MEQ units!

Hi there.

Thank you, I'm glad you thought my reply was good.

Message recieved, I wont comment on old threads. Sorry, I was not aware of the consequences.

And I apologise if I annoyed any users by commenting on this old thread.

Maybe change them to:

Hellgun: Range 24" S4 AP- Rapid Fire, Rending

Gains some strength versus the basic lasgun, plus the rending special rules gives AP 1 (or whatever it does, my BRB has gone missing) on a roll to wound of 6. Still gives it punch versus MEQ and gives a strength increase without overpowering. It actually improves versus terminators, because now they can force invulnerable saves because of rending. If it changes the balance, the cost of Stormtroopers could always change accordingly.

Possible solutions:
a) leave as is
b) increase STR to 4 but decrease AP to 4
c) increase STR to 4 and decrease range to 12''
d) increase STR to 4 and make it GETS HOT

For a 1 STR increase, 1-2 points is ridiculous. 5 points extra would still make it too cheap.

Give the hotshot the use of first rank fire, 2nd rank fire, and call it done.

I've heard storm troops work alright when combined with Colossus. S6 AP3 5" no cover tends to make marines spread out into the open; and that's when storm troopers can drop in on them and rapid fire away.

Storm troopers should be used to finish off squads, not go into a shoot out with 10 man tac squads. The 10 man tac squad should always win the shootout... because they should charge instead of shooting; and that pretty much means game over for storm troopers.


-Matt

Escudo wrote:Hi there.

Thank you, I'm glad you thought my reply was good.

Message recieved, I wont comment on old threads. Sorry, I was not aware of the consequences.

And I apologise if I annoyed any users by commenting on this old thread.

Didn't mean to be a jerk , just thought i would let you know since i had an issue when i first joined of always replying on old threads haha.


@ Destroyer: I like your options there, I like the Ap3 on the weapons, it makes them great at knocking out heavily armored foes which is what Ialways saw stormtroopers doing: dropping in and going after the best of the enemy! But it needs the increase in STR. I wouldn't like Get Hot too much, but it wouldn't be a bad choice, reduced range might be good, but really limit there uses. I would just like to see the STR increased and the points to match it.

My two cents.

16 Pt StormTroopers are over cost. Adding 2-5 pts each would make these guys cost 18-21 Points each. Nobody plays with them as they currently are, making them more expensive will not fix this.

jp400 wrote:My two cents.

16 Pt StormTroopers are over cost. Adding 2-5 pts each would make these guys cost 18-21 Points each. Nobody plays with them as they currently are, making them more expensive will not fix this.

Plenty of people I know play them.

It's called you deepstrike them with Plasma or Melta. They work great that way, just not the way people want to use them.

The way people WANT to use them is to use them as their rank and file troops, which doesn't work even they just get shot up and people start complaining.

I think they are priced the way they are because GW wants to justify giving them Infiltrate, Deepstrke, and that choice of special uses for them that makes them strong in a certain area, such as rerolling their deepstrike.

For some reason though, GW hasn't realized you can't Infiltrate and Deepstrike at the same time, meaning you should really only pay the points for one of the two, or maybe one and a half, meaning these models should be somewhere in the ballpark of 12 points a piece IMHO