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cheesedupree wrote:
Have not seen that, seems interesting though. Will check it out.

Have many people faced tau commander spam this edition? Have a friend running three with missile pods and the -1 ap modifier. It's something like 8 shots per commander, 2+ to hit, s7, -2 ap and d3 damage. With markerlights first they are rerolling ones and often ignoring cover saves. 24 of these shots per turn is just hammering my army, nothing stands up to them. Opponent is smart with blocking deep strike slots around them, and is screening with a ghost keel (-2 to shoot it from outside 12") so you can't target the commanders.

Looking through the army options, I don't see much that can counter them. Last game they killed 5 destroyers in cover, triarch stalker, monolith (in one turn with some help) and about 10 scarab bases. Super strong firebase.

Damn that sounds scary.... Haven't faced any tau yet this edition. But I hope they didn't kill that whole list in one turn. That would be slightly worrying. But how many hqs did he field?

I get the idea there are a lot of cheese lists out there, we might need a grading system... Gouda, brie, camembert, Rochford. Something like that

Nah not one turn, that list was in order. Destroyers one turn, stalker the next, monolith the following and finally the scarabs. The character keyword makes it brutal, you can't shoot them back. And the ghost keel being the thing you need to remove to shoot them, makes it doubley worse. Smite seems to be the way to kill it, which doesn't really help us

 Klowny wrote:

Yeah, I'm not sold at all on warriors, their damage output is pretty atrocious IMO, nothing like it was in 7th, and 20 of them isn't that hard to blast through, meaning you aren't getting RP at all most of the time, and the 5++ almost never comes into play, making the cryptek almost useless.

It seems that if you're running Warriors you really have to go all-in. So 2 squads of 20, a Cryptek, Ghost Arks, maybe a Lord with the new Morale/RP rules.

Now, maybe that works but it's too many eggs in one basket for my tastes. It's also of little use to me because I don't own any Ghost Arks and don't have enough Warriors for 2 maximum squads.

Also, I agree that their firepower is lacklustre. In 7th they had the edge over Immortals because both were wounding most vehicles on 6s, but the Warriors had more shots. Now though, Immortals can pump out a ton of shots with Tesla (especially with MWBD) or shred armour with S5 AP-2 Gauss. Even against vehicles, wounding T8-9 on 5s (compared to 6s for Warriors) and reducing their armour by 2 more than makes up for the difference in numbers.

 Klowny wrote:
A second O/Lord is good if you want to double down on immortals, or a D/Lord with Res orb is a good buff for your destroyers.

I think Overlords have a much better buff but D. Lords are a bit tougher, a little better in combat and also much more mobile.

Hi everyone,
I will play a match vs. my friend and he has a big Dark Angel gunline. His army and tactic is,

-Azrael in the middle (His buff has 6" range, +4 invul and reroll to hit to all Dark Angels)
-Inside 6" bubble, he adds 2 ven.dreadnought, 2 land speeder, 1 dark shroud (-1 hit to enemy if targeted anything around 6"), 1 land raider, 1 sammael w/sabreclaw
-Inside land raider, Asmodai, 4x Deathwing Knights and 1 DK champion deployed.
-Dark talon

Mainly, he has a good firepower (autocannons hurts us a lot) and has good answers if you come to close range. I really can't find a good answer to this.

I am thinking the list below.

-Imotekh (For melting dark shroud and hopefully others first turn)
-Triarch stalker (with particle caster)
-C'tan Deceiver
-Doomsday ark x2
-Monolith x2
-Doom Scythe

Total-1999 points

Plan is simple, teleport stalker and imotekh with c'tan, guard characters between monoliths and harass with arks and scythe.
Main reason i bring 2 monolith is countering autocannons, he will probably play around quantum shielding.

What is your opinion about this?

I'm very curious how two monoliths work. If you're sure they will mainly bring autocannons they will probably do ok,although that's a lot of firepower on his side. I would switch the doom scythe for something else though (TA maybe?) and you don't need the stalker up close if he doesn't have the melta weapon. And the decieve seems kind of wasted there. although I get the one two combo with the ctan and the DS monoliths, I would exchange the decieve for something else since you don't get a big payout from his ability.

You're also wasting a lot of points on Imotek of you don't use any of his abilities apart from the lord of the storm. While FO might not be ideal vs that list, having some Warscythe Lychguard might do pretty well vs some of those tanks (not as good as they used to, but better than anything else we have in cc) add a few Scarabs to soak some overwatch and for extra attacks and you could do pretty well.

A (Sentry) pylon is also always a good idea vs these things and for countering anything that flies.

First off, I've never been fond of the idea of tailoring your list against a specific enemy list.

That aside, I'm confused about what your plan actually is:

- You say that you're going to teleport Imotekh and the Stalker with the C'tan. Okay, but to what end?

- You say that Imotekh is there to 'hopefully melt the Darkshroud and others first turn'. How? Lord of the Storm is literally incapable of melting it even with the maximum possible roll, and his staff isn't likely to do much either.

What's more, you're against an army that's incredibly resilient to shooting and which has a 4++ to deflect high-power shots. Your solution is to use a lot of high-power shots.

If I was going against that sort of army, I'd consider one of two strategies:

1) C'tan/monolith/melee. Basically, use that trick to get a pile of melee units (possibly Warscythe Lychguard) into melee with the enemy on your first turn. His army wants to be relatively compact (because of Azrael's aura), so getting multi-charges should be easy. He doesn't have many units, so even if you don't kill everything you charge you can still make them unable to shoot you in his subsequent turn. What's more, killing the Darkshroud by this method will leave his army more vulnerable to shooting from the rest of your army.

I'm not too fond of this plan, as it always comes across as a little gimmicky to me. However, you've already got most of the pieces for it and your enemy seems relatively vulnerable to melee, so it's a real possibility.

2) Silver Tide. As above, your opponent doesn't have many models so drowning him in bodies is a real possibility. Autocannons might be a serious threat to our ~150-200pt vehicles, but 12-17pt Warriors and Immortals laugh at them (he's only wounding you on 3s and you still get a decent save).

The 4++ is largely irrelevant to both Warriors and Immortals, their Chapter Tactic can be ignored if you advance into your optimum range and the Darkshroud can be mitigated by using MWBD.

At the extreme end, you could have 3 Overlords and 140 Warriors or 4 Overlords and 90 Immortals at 2000pts. Let's be honest - there is just no way he is going to kill that many of either. His army just doesn't have the weight of fire.

Now, I appreciate that this might not be possible. The point is though, I'd definitely go for a 'quantity over quality' approach. Trust me: I'm an IG player.

Comp is ready. Mad rush but it looks pretty all together

I made a fun DS list. As well btw. It's (probably) not very competitive, but would be great fun to try out. So the theme is fast units and DS



Anyone else likes to make themed armies/lists?

Nagerash - I like to base my lists on Necrons going to war with the C'tan. The "rebellious Necrons". Which mostly means very little canoptek, good amount of warriors and immortals, doomsday arks, tesseract arks, no flayed ones, no shards.

I adore the whole fluff of the war in heaven, it's what makes the Necrons interesting to me.

 Nagerash wrote:
I made a fun DS list. As well btw. It's (probably) not very competitive, but would be great fun to try out. So the theme is fast units and DS

Spoiler:

1999p vanguard
Imotekh (on tomb World)
1 monolith
1 Sentry pylon, melta, ds
8 deathmarks
14 Flayed Ones

Nightbringer
10 Praetorians voidblades
1 triarch Stalker melta.

So the nightbringer and Praetorians rush forward to assist where ever the ds squad lands and the stalker walks into position to offer assistance (hopefully not too isolated)
Imotekh walks out T 2 to give reroll his buff to the FO and possibly in a position to MWBD either the Praetorians or FO T3.
It's not ideal to lose 2 turns of MWBD, but it's better than a barge lord (and more fluffy which I'm going for).

Anyone else likes to make themed armies/lists?

The list im playing with is mostly for fun, 'surprise!' List.

CCB
Cryptek
Cryptek

10 Gauss Immortals
10 Gauss Immortals
10 Warriors

10 Rod Praetorians
Deciever
Nightbringer

Nightscythe

Ghost Ark

The Deciever pulls the Nightbringer and something to hide behind with him while the rest moves up. Probably wont win against anything serious, but it will be a nice change from Marines.

So if DDAs and Scarabs are our best units (with a guest appearance from the Superheavy Pylon),
does that mean -
-is a competitive build?

 skoffs wrote:
So if DDAs and Scarabs are our best units (with a guest appearance from the Superheavy Pylon),
does that mean -

Spoiler:

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Necrons) [77 PL, 1524pts] ++

+ HQ +
(FW) Toholk the Blinded [8 PL, 165pts]

+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) ++

Lord [5 PL, 79pts]: Voidblade

+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Necrons) [24 PL, 475pts] ++
+ Lord of War +
(FW) Gauss Pylon [24 PL, 475pts]

-is a competitive build?

I couldn't say. I'm sure it could do well vs several lists, but it wouldn't be any fun to play with or against imo. Also why 1524 points? I'm also not sure how this list will do against hordes.

 skoffs wrote:
So if DDAs and Scarabs are our best units (with a guest appearance from the Superheavy Pylon),
does that mean -

Spoiler:

++ Spearhead Detachment +1CP (Necrons) [77 PL, 1524pts] ++

+ HQ +
(FW) Toholk the Blinded [8 PL, 165pts]

+ Heavy Support +
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]
Doomsday Ark [10 PL, 203pts]

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Necrons) ++

Lord [5 PL, 79pts]: Voidblade

+ Fast Attack +
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm
Canoptek Scarabs [4 PL, 78pts]: 6x Canoptek Scarab Swarm

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Necrons) [24 PL, 475pts] ++
+ Lord of War +
(FW) Gauss Pylon [24 PL, 475pts]

-is a competitive build?

Challange accepted and i raise you this list. you have 232 pts to pretty much play with, you can bring in either the Deciever to start placing scarabs on objective or rushing the opponent ro nightbringer to bring on the pain. The idea is to have all 4 pylons drop near enemies unit and shoot the crap out of them, if you can get within half range you are maximizing damage output per each one.

Sentry pylons lack QS, have less wounds and range, the flayer arrays and mobility (even though when you move the arks you lose damage). I feel even a DDA spam list lacks enough horde killing power, and if your moving to get the flayed arrays you lose the big gun. If you want a vehicle only spam list it has to be the TA's, they have the most versatile weaponry, best save etc.

IN dealing with tau - deep strike in and kill the commanders (since they are using commanders in the back field).

They are about as good as ven dakka dreds, but being characters help them a lot.

its easy to deepstrike against tau, as their area denial units (kroot, firewarriors) are garbage and are cleared very easily.

or use high mobility units (like tomblades - which are amazing) to get into range. Oh, kill the drones first, by the way.

FLG has a meta report:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ct-6BTRhNXx46dCxN9f7YxaARRhkUp5Hw0Rypcv3JHs/edit#gid=1657120584

We are the worst ranking major faction.... :( by a long shot

How do you come to that conclusion?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I glanced through, and Tau, Ork and Spacewolves seem to be in the same area?

I couldn't work out what was what on that list..

We have a 58% chance of losing and a 41% chance of winning, orks are 47% for both while T'au have a 40% chance of winning but only a 52% chance of losing and a 7% chance of a draw.

torblind wrote:
How do you come to that conclusion?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I glanced through, and Tau, Ork and Spacewolves seem to be in the same area?

It only looks that way if you're only looking at the win percentages. Look on the overall section and there's a row that shows sum. I think this is what you should look at but I'm not sure
I think the sum takes into account the different variables more than just the win loss tie percentages

How have you guys found Destroyers?

They seem fairly resilient to small-arms fire, but it seems that any stronger weapons just shred them. Their offensive output isn't awful, but does seem lacking. They don't have the weight of shots to threaten infantry (even MEQ), nor the strength to be a major threat to vehicles or even bikes (to get some use out of d3 damage). What's more, the Destroyer Lord buff just doesn't seem significant.

In essence, it's hard to find targets that I'm not either overkilling or struggling to wound. And, they just don't seem resilient enough to return fire (and lack the range to avoid it).

Have you guys had them perform better? If so, do you have any tips for me?

I found in low point games 1000-1500 Stalkers were my champs. Without a base they can find cover easy by crawling on things and they are ok in close combat. Just getting a vehicle in the the lowest teir pretty much cripples it. I Just hit the thing the threatens the stalkers the most with the Heat Ray or Heavy G then fly up my Tomb Blades into rapid fire and ether kill it or cripple it. So far got a 5 game winning streak in 1000 point games.

 vipoid wrote:
How have you guys found Destroyers?

They seem fairly resilient to small-arms fire, but it seems that any stronger weapons just shred them. Their offensive output isn't awful, but does seem lacking. They don't have the weight of shots to threaten infantry (even MEQ), nor the strength to be a major threat to vehicles or even bikes (to get some use out of d3 damage). What's more, the Destroyer Lord buff just doesn't seem significant.

In essence, it's hard to find targets that I'm not either overkilling or struggling to wound. And, they just don't seem resilient enough to return fire (and lack the range to avoid it).

Have you guys had them perform better? If so, do you have any tips for me?

Just finished two games today with 2 units of three Heavy Destroyers in my list. In both matches I faced vehicle heavy lists.

In the first match against Chaos both of my units were destroyed by a Knight in a single shooting phase. I shot first with all six of them an only managed to do 3 wounds .

In the second game they killed one Dreadnought and died to shooting from two Predators. This was bad placement from my part.

I've used them before and they have usually been focus fired to death in the same manner.

The way to use them is to use line blocking terrain and focus fire on one vehicle at a time in such a position than nothing else can hit them. Then move on to the next target. The most important part here is to not always shoot at the juciest target, but the safest from your point of view. This requires careful deployment, movement and a lot of patience. Also make sure to have other threats to the opponent.

I also had 10 Praetorians in these games. They underperformed heavily against vehicle heavy armies with a few dreads. I'm sure they are great against some other armies, but 350 points are a lot.

I was about to say Toholk is mandatory if taking a Superheavy Pylon, but then I thought about it a little more.
He costs 165 points. Only one of his abilities will effect the Pylon, the others are useless unless your list includes a lot of Warriors (which, if we've come to a consensus, isn't the best build).
For 3 points more you could get TWO Spyders with Fab.Claws. That would potentially give you significantly more wounds back. Plus, if you're playing a lot of Scarabs (which I think we've all agreed is a good idea) they would have benefit (plus the potential for psychic defense).
The difference would be that once Toholk gives his buff to the Pylon he can be forgotten. The Spyders would need to be next to the Pylon to give it any help, and if killed the Pylon is vulnerable.
On the other hand, if you've got any other vehicles near the Pylon (eg. Doomsday Arks) the Spyders can benefit them as well.
But you're going to need an HQ no matter what, so it might as well be Toholk if you're taking a Pylon, right?

Ugh, I don't know.
What you think?

 skoffs wrote:
I was about to say Toholk is mandatory if taking a Superheavy Pylon, but then I thought about it a little more.
He costs 165 points. Only one of his abilities will effect the Pylon, the others are useless unless your list includes a lot of Warriors (which, if we've come to a consensus, isn't the best build).
For 3 points more you could get TWO Spyders with Fab.Claws. That would potentially give you significantly more wounds back. Plus, if you're playing a lot of Scarabs (which I think we've all agreed is a good idea) they would have benefit (plus the potential for psychic defense).
The difference would be that once Toholk gives his buff to the Pylon he can be forgotten. The Spyders would need to be next to the Pylon to give it any help, and if killed the Pylon is vulnerable.
On the other hand, if you've got any other vehicles near the Pylon (eg. Doomsday Arks) the Spyders can benefit them as well.
But you're going to need an HQ no matter what, so it might as well be Toholk if you're taking a Pylon, right?

Ugh, I don't know.
What you think?

He's a no brainer if taking a vehicle heavy list, as no other HQ's affect vehicles in any way. He also reroll a seizes, which is handy in a vehicle heavy list as they tend to skew towards an alpha strike. Finally his weaponry is pretty good.

 Klowny wrote:
He's a no brainer if taking a vehicle heavy list

But he can only affect a single vehicle. Surely a vehicle HEAVY list would want something that can help many vehicles rather than a single one?
(if it was a bubble effect that'd be a completely different story all together).

 skoffs wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
He's a no brainer if taking a vehicle heavy list

But he can only affect a single vehicle. Surely a vehicle HEAVY list would want something that can help many vehicles rather than a single one?
(if it was a bubble effect that'd be a completely different story all together).

Then what HQ would serve a vehicle heavy list better?

 Klowny wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
He's a no brainer if taking a vehicle heavy list

But he can only affect a single vehicle. Surely a vehicle HEAVY list would want something that can help many vehicles rather than a single one?
(if it was a bubble effect that'd be a completely different story all together).

Then what HQ would serve a vehicle heavy list better?

I think a CCB w/ SoL and Tesla and/or Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe and Phylactery suit Heavy lists because the CCB can CW the D Lord to give him 2+ advance, charge and to hit with the D lords re-rolling ones, keep up with the D Lord as well. The D Lord can then act as a Beatstick and if it takes any wounds it can heal D3. Have them followed by a unit of 9 Scarabs or 2 units of 6 to make sure they cannot be targeted by enemy units or be subject to something like smite.

Or, play the CCB on its own with the Gauss Cannon and hold it back with maybe a unit of Immortals with Tesla.

 Klowny wrote:

 skoffs wrote:

 Klowny wrote:
He's a no brainer if taking a vehicle heavy list

But he can only affect a single vehicle. Surely a vehicle HEAVY list would want something that can help many vehicles rather than a single one?
(if it was a bubble effect that'd be a completely different story all together).

Then what HQ would serve a vehicle heavy list better?

I get what you're saying, but it feels more like you'd need to take him if there's a SPECIFIC vehicle you want to keep alive (eg. Superheavy Pylon). If you're spamming vehicles, he doesn't really seem to be that requisite, as you should have plenty of redundancy built into your list already.

By the way, how are you guys finding the Destroyer Lord?

I liked him initially, but on testing he seems very expensive for what he brings. I tried him with a Staff of Light and while it wasn't completely awful, I couldn't help but think that he just wasn't worth the price. For a unit with such a pitiful buff, I'd expect much more than a few S5 AP-2 D1 shots/attacks.

I don't know, he just feels like he's either missing a buff or else missing out on some offensive power.

 Cmdr_Sune wrote:
The way to use them is to use line blocking terrain and focus fire on one vehicle at a time in such a position than nothing else can hit them. Then move on to the next target. The most important part here is to not always shoot at the juciest target, but the safest from your point of view. This requires careful deployment, movement and a lot of patience. Also make sure to have other threats to the opponent.

I get what you're saying, but with just 24" of range it's very hard to find a piece of suitable terrain (usually it'll either leave you out of range or else leave you completely exposed if you try to leave it). What's more, it seems very difficult to get LoS from the entire Destroyer squad to the target vehicle, without exposing even a single member to fire from any other source.

Oh well, I'll give it a go next time I used Destroyers, though honestly my last few games has caused my enthusiasm for Necrons to wane considerably.