Ork Zzap Guns

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**thunderingjove**

Short Post: Ork zzap guns should be ordinance weapons.

**dayve110**

So you want Zapp guns to become SAG?

**thunderingjove**

There's a lot more to a SAG than being ordinance (template, crazy results, warp-related fluff). Fluff-wise for the zzap gun, it's extremely dangerous, and should inflict ordinance-like damage -- if it works at all.

**dayve110**

Well the ZG is essentially a smaller SAG if you look at some of their rules.
Do you want the blast or do you just want the 2D6-pick the highest Armour Pen?

**Valkyrie**

Making it a 3" blast would be ok but anything bigger would possibly make the SAG obsolete.

**thunderingjove**

All I am recommending is that the zzap gun be made ordinance, so that it can get the second dice against vehicles for armor penetration.

**MekanobSamael**

Valkyrie wrote:Making it a 3" blast would be ok but anything bigger would possibly make the SAG obsolete.

Ordnance and Ordnance Blast aren't the same.
As to the idea itself, it would make the Zzap Gun more competitive (good), but it would give Orks better long-range anti-tank (bad).
I say this because it seems some deliberate decisions were made to prevent Orks from making the long-range tank snipe happen.

**kill dem stunties**

No, ork zzap guns need to be made to autohit like they used to.

Also, ITT, a lot of people who need to go look in their rulebooks at the difference between something being ordinance, and ordinance blast.

Hint, making zzap gun ordinance wont give it a blast template, alrge or small.

**Shake Zoola**

kill dem stunties wrote:No, ork zzap guns need to be made to autohit like they used to.

+1

This would make Zzap guns worth taking!

**Melissia**

thunderingjove wrote:Short Post: Ork zzap guns should be ordinance weapons.

So you want a crappy weapon to be even crappier?

**MagicJuggler**

Simple answer:

Zzap is strength 3d6, pick highest 2 values.
-On a double, lose a grot.
-On a triple, lose another Grot, but the shot is treated as Lance.
-On a value greater than 10, lose another grot, but the shot is AP 1.

Nothing like idiotically unpredictable weapons for anti-tank with high power output, no?

**the_ferrett**

So 3/12 grots lost for a triple 6? Better allow them to get more crew if you want that to happen....

**grayspark**

Hmmm... Strength 3 and I lose a grot.

Sounds fun!

**sebster**

There are all sorts of ways to make zzap guns much better, MagicJuggler gives a really good example, but there is no way to make the Zzap gun better at AT without making the Ork list work. These are opposing goals because the Ork list is built around the idea that Orks have weak ranged AT. It's how they fit in the current tactical environment.

**oadie**

I don't think Zzap Guns auto-hitting would be an unreasonable boost. With the strength being randomized as it currently is, the odds of first hitting, then rolling high enough to damage an enemy vehicle simply aren't high enough to make them viable. Even if you do manage it, doing serious damage most likely means whittling down your crew, as well. The range of strength rolls that do nothing, that do damage, and that do damage to both the target and the grot crew are distributed in such a way that, even with shots auto-hitting, the unit is still a gamble, as it should be.

I'm kind of glad I wasn't around when zzaps auto-hit. Were that the case, I would have cried over my models as I pushed them to the back of the shelf when the 5th ed. codex came out.

**Melissia**

sebster wrote:Orks have weak AT.

Fixed. Seriously, Ork AT is EXTREMELY weak outside of a single unit, which isn't even necessarily all that great because you can only have up to three of the squads and they can only target a single unit each per squad... and they're still only light anti-tank. BS2 autocannons that fire D3 shots isn't as good as it sounds.

**the_ferrett**

The issue with auto-hitting (from some else's POV) is that you can then turn your zzapp battery into a SM instakiller. They said that even termies would be hurt by this kind of thing.

**Shake Zoola**

the_ferrett wrote:They said that even termies would be hurt by this kind of thing.

Off topic a bit...but in the last edition not only did zzap guns auto hit but the good ol choppa rule really farked w SM!

That was what termies REALLY had to be concerned about...

**yournamehere**

I miss the old choppa, sigh...

**Melissia**

Yeah, screw plasma guns, termies were afraid of angry fungus men with sharpened slabs of metal!

**the_ferrett**

How about a simple option - allow them to be twin linked for 10 points. Then if you really want you could say something like "Allow them to be +5 str for 20 points, all shots over str 10 remove a grot"

**Guitardian**

Orky artillery is meant to be janky and unreliable, that's the fun of it. When it works it really works, when it messes up it really messes up. I don't think just adding bonuses to something is helpful to the game. Heck, I think all Ork boyz should have S4 too because their arms are so big. The game is already precariously balanced without randomly assigned "It would be better if it was like this" attempts to modify it. I think All my Eldar should move 7" instead of 6" too, and my Phoenix Lords get invul saves. I think drop pods should have a chance to crash land horribly killing everybody on board. I think they should bring back the Hop-Splat-Gun.

Sorry, I just being bitchy. I figure we just use the rules as they are and hope they are kind of balanced. Maybe I'm just a conservative and resistant to change.

**the_ferrett**

>.> *Snipes at Mephiston with a battery while we design 'better' versions*

The thread is here though, so what's the harm in wishlisting.

**Geemoney**

Guitardian wrote:Orky artillery is meant to be janky and unreliable, that's the fun of it. When it works it really works, when it messes up it really messes up.

Its not fun its the reason why you never see any Orky artillery on the table.

**Guitardian**

I thought it had something to do with the fact that they can't shoot straight, and would much prefer to get stuck in choppin and sluggin with the rest of da ladz... leaving their guns behind in a 3-year-old style ADHD tantrum.

**sebster**

Melissia wrote:
sebster wrote:Orks have weak AT.
Fixed. Seriously, Ork AT is EXTREMELY weak outside of a single unit, which isn't even necessarily all that great because you can only have up to three of the squads and they can only target a single unit each per squad... and they're still only light anti-tank. BS2 autocannons that fire D3 shots isn't as good as it sounds.

No, you didn't fix it, you made it worse. My original comment 'orks have weak ranged AT' is more accurate than your edit. The Ork AT weakness is only at range - orks have access to a whole lot of powerklaws so when they get up close tanks just don't last.

**Melissia**

No, I think mine's more accurate. Melee AT is weak in general in this game, and Ork melee AT isn't spectacular. Only the Warboss and tankbustas can actually harm AV14, and even then they only get five and four attacks respectively. Considering the defensive benefits vehicles get simply by moving around, they'll be lucky if they land a blow, nevermind penetrate.

**Geemoney**

Melissia, Kan's and Deff Dreads both are str10, on the charge a Nob with a PK is str 9. All of which can hurt A14 vehicles. That doesn't make Ork melee AT good....just not as bleak as you made it sound.

**Shas'O Dorian**

Ok but Kans are easy enough to bring down before they get into melee, or just kite so they never get there. Also Nobz on the charge, should they get it as again they are slow if not mounted in a Wagon or bikes, are only the equivilent of Lascannons hitting on a 4 or a 6 which we all know is fairly weak Vs AV14. IMO if you make the kustom mega blasta a melta weapon it would give orks a much needed boost Vs AV 14.

**Geemoney**

Your right. I was just saying that they can hurt AV14, that is all. I would be awesome if orks had meltas.
As of now my strategy with dealing with AV14 is to ignore it unless I'm given a good opportunity to destroy it.