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Hi All,

This is my first list for WFB since roughly twelve years ago. A lot has changed since then, obviously. I re-started GW about 18 months ago, mainly 40k though. I'm just venturing into WFB again now. I chose WoC because I wanted a relatively low model-count army which was reasonably powerful. I'm no WAAC gamer, but I don't want to buy/model/paint a force that will never stand a chance.

Anyway, enough rambling, here is my list and I would appreciate any insight or critique; positive or negative, as long as it's constructive.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENERAL
**Chaos Sorcerer** - 215pts
Level 2 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch
Golden Eye of Tzeentch
Spell Familiar
Third Eye of Tzeentch

CORE
**16 Chaos Warriors** - 240pts
Additional Hand Weapon
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Banner of Rage

**15 Chaos Warriors** - 225pts
Additional Hand Weapon
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Banner of Rage

**12 Chaos Warhounds** 72pts

**12 Chaos Warhounds**

SPECIAL
**5 Chaos Knights** - 270
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Mark of Tzeentch

RARE
**Giant** - 245
Mark of Tzeentch

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So that's 1500pts on the nose and all percentages met.

Halberds over 2nd hand weapon for the Warriors - the 2nd rank gets no benefit from the hand weapons but would get to attack at S5.

Only 1 copy of a banner allowed - switch unit #2 over to the Mark of Khorne.

1 unit of hounds should be enough. They are pretty darn fragile & never rally when broken. Losing 72pts is enough to hurt.

Like the sorcerer on disk. Be sure to keep him far enough away to avoid hitting the warriors on a miscast.

RanTheCid wrote:Halberds over 2nd hand weapon for the Warriors - the 2nd rank gets no benefit from the hand weapons but would get to attack at S5.

Only 1 copy of a banner allowed - switch unit #2 over to the Mark of Khorne.

1 unit of hounds should be enough. They are pretty darn fragile & never rally when broken. Losing 72pts is enough to hurt.

Like the sorcerer on disk. Be sure to keep him far enough away to avoid hitting the warriors on a miscast.

Cheers for the advice!

Must've missed that about multiple banners, although even now I know, I'd rather not use MoK. I like my armies to have some form of fluff element, so if I can find another solution I'd rather not have MoK in a predominantly Tzeentch force. Polar opposites and all that.

I might scrap some of the hounds then, if you think one unit is sufficient. I just wanted something sitting in front of each unit of Warriors to draw fire away.

Agreed on the halberds, and on sticking with some kind of fluff for your version of the boys in blue. Here's what I was thinking on the list, with comments to follow:

H: Sorcerer - MoT, level 2, golden eye, spell familiar, third eye, disc = 225
H: Exalted Hero - MoT, shield = 125

C: 15 Warriors - banner of rage, full command, halberds = 305
C: 15 Warriors - MoT, full command, shields = 290
C: 5 Warhounds = 30
C: 5 Warhounds = 30

S: 5 Knights - MoT, standard, musician = 250

R: Giant - MoT = 245
--------
1500

By double-checking your math (which was kinda messed up), dropping the knight champ (a poor use of 20 points), fixing the warriors and dropping the warhounds to min size, I was able to jam in a budget tizz exalted to stomp up with the shield warriors. If you don't like him you could always grind him up into 7 warriors (bringing both units to 18 with an extra somewhere) and 2 more warhounds (making 2 squads of 6, which happens to be the maximum you can use to assault a war machine), which is a workable idea as well.

Otherwise, pretty solid stuff without silly mixed marks or 8th edition shenanigans.

- Salvage

Excellent input, Salvage. Cheers!

Was your thinking behind the Hero to offset the loss of damage output from giving his unit shields? If so, I like it. Being brand new to it, I wasn't sure on the practise of having multiple heroes for small games. In 40k for instance (which is my main experience) it's highly irregular to pick two HQ units in a low points game.

I like the min/maxing of the Hounds, I have no love for them, just wanted a screen for the Warriors really. I suppose 5 hounds will last one volley, anyway


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually, a related question which someone may or may not be able to answer...

I see the Chaos Warriors box comes with the options of two hand weapons or hand weapon and shield... Where are people sourcing the halberds from?

Yep the idea was indeed to bolster the turtle warriors with the exalted's 4 S5 WS7 attaks. He's quite a bruiser, even with just a shield! Filling out the warriors to 6x3 and the puppies to 6 is as noted a decent idea as well, and turtle warriors are no slouches even without S5 ... So sorta up to you, if you want another hero because heroes are cool and killy, or you want more troops because you've got them handy and are often fighting heavy shooting, so need to weather casualties in the early game.

GW makes a halberd upgrade kit (it's under WoC, under Bitz Packs I think), but it's fairly cost prohibitive. Almost universally people use the lances from chaos knights, as no chaos knight in 8th ought to be carrying one of them

- Salvage

Christ, they are expensive! £7.50 ($11.50) for 10! That's a bit rude.

I'll have a think on what you've mentioned and tinker with it in the coming days I think. I made the list without ever having seen the magic items/banners in the core rule book, but I now have access to it, perhaps something will take my fancy from that.

I often write short stories based around my forces as introductions to my battle reports, another reason I wanted to stick to Tzeentch here, so another character could be good for that. Interesting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Revised list:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GENERAL
**Chaos Sorcerer** - 215pts
Level 2 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch
Golden Eye of Tzeentch
Spell Familiar

**Exalted Hero** - 140pts
Mark of Tzeentch
Enchanted Shield
Favour of the Gods

CORE
**18 Chaos Warriors** - 353pts
Halberds
Full Command
Banner of Rage

**14 Chaos Warriors** - 262pts
Shields
Musician
Standard Bearer
Mark of Tzeentch

**5 Chaos Warhounds** 30pts

**5 Chaos Warhounds** 30pts

SPECIAL
**5 Chaos Knights** - 270
Champion
Musician
Standard Bearer
Mark of Tzeentch

RARE
**Giant** - 245
Mark of Tzeentch

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Couldn't fit 12 Hounds in, they became 10. Had to whittle one unit of warriors and increase the other. The Exalted Hero would join the unit of 14 to become a 3x5 unit.

What do you think?

Cool stuff! Your disc sorcerer is actually 15 points too expensive, and I'll say again that knight champs are really an unfortunate use of 20 points. I'd much rather have a champ in the second warriors - to keep the exalted from challenging himself into a pickle - then one more attak for the knights, as well as the ability of enemy characters to challenge him out and break the unit on overkill.

At the least, those extra 15 points buys you two more hounds, or the warrior champ.

- Salvage

Actually, I edited it in a bit of a hurry, the Knight Champion isn't actually there, I'll fix it in a second. As for the Sorcerer... Very strange, not sure how that happened! I'll double check it in the morning and find a home for those 15pts.

I like the cheap synergy of the Enchanted Shield and MoT... 4+ ward save for the Exalted is pretty nice.

Tantras wrote:I like the cheap synergy of the Enchanted Shield and MoT... 4+ ward save for the Exalted is pretty nice.

Not quite! Remember that you can only parry with a mundane hand weapon and a mundane shield, so he gets a 3/5+ save with an ordinary shield and a 2/6+ with the enchanted shield. I'd probably go with the mundane shield and net another 10 points

- Salvage

Boss_Salvage wrote:

Tantras wrote:I like the cheap synergy of the Enchanted Shield and MoT... 4+ ward save for the Exalted is pretty nice.

Not quite! Remember that you can only parry with a mundane hand weapon and a mundane shield, so he gets a 3/5+ save with an ordinary shield and a 2/6+ with the enchanted shield. I'd probably go with the mundane shield and net another 10 points

- Salvage

Just re-read it, and you're absolutely right of course. I must've read it in a hurry or something the first time around, I thought it gave a 5+ ward save, thus the confusion. Ok, ten points to spend, plus 15 that you suspect I've gone over on the Sorcerer. I shall tidy up my figures when I get a chance and see what I can come up with!

I've got to say that salvage is right on, but I like having a champ in a small group of knights. The ability to challenge a powerful character and sacrifice the champ gives the knights a chance to pound the rest of the unit. In my experience this outweighs any overkill benefits the enemy character would get.

When I don't have a champ the enemy character goes first an slaughters at least a couple of my preciously expensive knights...

I guess it depends if you play against high initiative armies

Ok, I double checked all my numbers and corrected some posting errors from last time. The strange thing is I'd actually UNDER charged myself for the Sorcerer. With the equipment I have on him here he should be 200pts exactly, I previously had him down as 190pts. So there go my 10pts from downgrading the enchanted shield to a regular shield and I'm back at 1500pts exactly... unless I'm missing something obvious?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
GENERAL
**Chaos Sorcerer** - 200
Level 2 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch
Golden Eye of Tzeentch
Spell Familiar

**Exalted Hero** - 130
Mark of Tzeentch
Shield
Favour of the Gods

CORE
**18 Chaos Warriors** - 353
Halberds
Full Command
Banner of Rage

**14 Chaos Warriors** - 262
Shields
Standard Bearer
Musician
Mark of Tzeentch

**10 Chaos Warhounds** - 60

SPECIAL
**5 Chaos Knights** - 250
Musician
Standard Bearer
Mark of Tzeentch

RARE
**Giant** - 245
Mark of Tzeentch

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I like the suggestion about the Knight Champion... it seems a fairly logical tactic... how I'd find another 20pts though is beyond me.

I'm also just getting into Fantasy & am thinking of starting this same army. I like the models in this list & it sounds like this is a good starter list. I have one question:

Is the giant a must have or would another group of 5 Knights work just the same?

InquisitorMack wrote:I'm also just getting into Fantasy & am thinking of starting this same army. I like the models in this list & it sounds like this is a good starter list. I have one question:

Is the giant a must have or would another group of 5 Knights work just the same?

Giants are kind of a waste of points especially for a beginner. Knights are solid but few in number. use them in conjunction with rest of army

InquisitorMack wrote:Is the giant a must have or would another group of 5 Knights work just the same?

Giants are tons of fun and monsters in general are a treat in 8th edition with thunderstomp. Unfortunately they're also VERY easy to kill with the changes to artillery - and the proliferation in shooting in general - so take some luck / patience / tactics (in that order) to make work. For a newbie I'd probably go with the knights, but don't rule out a giant if you want a fairly cheap monster to have fun modeling, pushing around the table and occasionally fighting with

- Salvage, T-Stomp Addict

If you do run a giant, the mark of slaanesh always strikes first. I realize you've got a Tztch theme, but always striking first is sweet!

Not to highjack a thread, but are Chaos Ogres any good in this list? The only thing I know about them at this point is that I like the models; silly I know, but models are what I like most about Warhammer.

Feel free to hijack! I'm interested in reading opinions on all of the WoC range. I haven't actually purchased anything yet, I'm still thinking things over.

Me too.

I think ogres can work but overall most people are going for trolls from what i have seen because regenerate can be a pain and they can vomit on highly armoured knights which makes them abit more versatile.

Ogres are alright I suppose. They do benefit from chaos armor and marks but that makes them pricey. And if you're kitting out 6 of them you mind as well go for dragon ogres

Having run all of the chaos MI over 7th and the little 8th I've played with my WoT, here are my thoughts:

Trolls -- Had to be babysat in 7th edition due to stupidity, but clearly much more functional in 8th thanks to the BSB's reroll. I've always loved the Mutant Regen ability in theory, but in practice it's absolutely mindblowing since it actually makes the EotG work - I had S6, MR(3), Save 6/4/4+ and stubborn trolls in one game However, I've swapped my 6 troll unit over to 6 ogres because of how badly even the smallest bit of fire levels the unit. With NO armor beyond that regen the things just go up like powdered creamer, and that's kinda unacceptable to me. Using ogres also skips over an unfortunate rules moment with the vomit ability. Say you're running your trolls in 2x3 formation (so three wide), by RAW you have two choices: 18 WS3 S5 attaks or 3 S5 no armor hits. The back rank is not in base with the enemy as far as I can tell, so does not vomit.

Dragon Ogres -- I ran 3 with great weapons in 7th and there wasn't a single game they lived through, and I don't think I was being overly ambitious with them. And here's the kicker: they were actually killed only once, all those other deaths were from fluffing combat and being run down. Drogres are simply WAY to expensive for me to field any longer, though I did notice that they're now Monstrous Beasts, which means swiftstride ... There is still hope for ahw drogres though, since that extra attak should help get over their inability to hit things, and then 3 S5 stomps on top of 12 S5 attaks ought to help things out. Note that you could in theory take 4 ahw drogres, but we're talking such a huge investment at this point that I myself would be investing in more warriors or something.

Ogres -- Advantage #1) Cheap-ish. Advantage #2) Markable, by which I mostly mean theme purposes, though certainly MoK makes them much better at their job, and MoT gives an extra layer of protection after their obligatory chaos armor. Advantage #3) Command, particularly that beautiful musician. I ran 3 gw ogres alongside my 3 gw drogres in 7th, and while often they suffered similar fates (i.e. charged in, fluffed, were run down), they had some spurts of competence and got close to their 150 points back, which my 231 point drogres never did. As of right now my WoT Redux list includes 6 ogres w/ MoT, musician, chaos armor and is just looking to beat the enemy into submission. True, gw makes this unit a bunch more scary, but my list is so strapped right now that finding 60 points is a tall order.

YMMV, particularly regarding DO in 8th

- Salvage

if the meta game helps ya ben, you have
snowy dwarves
matty dwarves
luke chaos dwarves
me goblins (the empire wont come out to play till tournys)
gibbo undead
ross undead

so against half the armies the giant will just be a target. and distract fire for a turn, maybe bulk the knights more.

An always striking first giant can potentially be quite brutal, though have you considered a hell cannon? its 205 points or something so you would be saving yourself a handful of points there which could go to bolstering your warriors ive noticed your currently doing 18-14 as the unit sizes, have you considered doing 2 units of 15? in 3x5 formation and then you save the 40ish points from the giant swapped with the hell cannon, the cost of the mark of tzeentch on that giant and the points for 2 warriors giving you something like 100 points to play with. could always come in handy

When I use my ogres they can really dish out the pain, but they're really expensive coming in at like 360 for 6 of them.

If you did change the giant to a hellcannon you could make your Exalted a standard bearer, which is always a plus.

I agree with the suggestion on halberds, they are pretty beastly. Though if you find yourself fighting horde armies, I would also give them Add. Hand Weapons as well.

As for your sorcerer, that's a bit much in my. I would got with a beefy Lord, and a level 2 sorcerer with a spell familiar and a mark of Nurgle or Tzeentch.

I would also give shields to the Knights and put the banner of rage on the Knights as well. Maybe lances as well? That's what I've been hearing from a lot of WoC players, but I haven't had luck with Knights at all yet.

Also a hellcannon instead of a Giant. It's WoC only good shooting. Shooting small template 62 inches is pretty beastly. That could be game changing especially if you nuke the lord/hero, the hammer unit, or the other players cannons/stone throwers ect... And if you miscast, all of them are really brutal. Also if he rampages or the crew are lost and he rampages, he's a beast in close combat himself!

Looks rather flawless to me. I would really keep that sorcerer safe, he is in fact your only one, and he is your only range as well. I sometimes ride my knights in groups of six but thats just me, and I also like helcannons for 205 points to back my sorcerer, but the helcannon can be a waist of points if you role the dreaded misfire dice...

So...The list looks good!

Thanks for all the feedback so far, everyone. It's been very interesting to read.

I am seeing a lot of support for the Hellcannon, both here and in other threads... I know it's powerful, that's not in dispute, but is it not somewhat of a handicap having a weapon in your army that can trigger miscasts on your own most expensive/powerful features? In the case obviously, the Sorcerer.

If I was running some sort of Khorne-only, low magic list then I'd take one in a heartbeat, it just concerns me otherwise.

Am I to understand that effectively, even taking into account the risk to my own caster, the Hellcannon is destructive enough to risk?

The hellcannon really hurts as its such a high strength and is also rather hard to kill except with cannons, i would say its definetly worth the risk but in some games you will get upset when you misfire, but in others you will praise its amazing killing ability.