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If a blast weapon scores a hit on the wing of a Valkryie, and there is a unit of Infantry on the ground directly under the Valkyrie's wing, are all the models in the area of the template hit, or just the Valkyrie's wing and any models not directly under the wing? This came up last night in a game and I didn't know exactly how this was played as I am new to using the Valkyrie and normally units aren't "under" vehicles.

A) It is blast marker, not template. Templates are the flamer shaped ones

B) Yes, RAW EVERY model under the blast marker is hit, regardless of any obstruction above it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:A) It is blast marker, not template. Templates are the flamer shaped ones

Tomato. Tom-ah-to.

B) Yes, RAW EVERY model under the blast marker is hit, regardless of any obstruction above it.

Not exactly true. See the rules for ruins.

Which is why I ask the question, as the Valkyrie is physically on another "level" than the troops on the ground as it is technically up in the air.

No, it is a valid distinction. T here are no rules for Blast Templates.

Ruins are not usual, which is why they are an EXCEPTION to the normal rules - which is stated in the ruin rules.

They are not on another level, despite the models being below. THere is no exception for Valkyries therefore you follow the normal rules, meaning ALL models under the Blast Marker are hit.

Lord_Mortis wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:A) It is blast marker, not template. Templates are the flamer shaped ones

Tomato. Tom-ah-to.

B) Yes, RAW EVERY model under the blast marker is hit, regardless of any obstruction above it.

Not exactly true. See the rules for ruins.

Which is why I ask the question, as the Valkyrie is physically on another "level" than the troops on the ground as it is technically up in the air.

1) No, they are VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. GW even acknowledges this with it's Tyranid errata.

2) Ruins are the exception.

nosferatu1001 wrote:They are not on another level, despite the models being below. THere is no exception for Valkyries therefore you follow the normal rules, meaning ALL models under the Blast Marker are hit.

So then a blast template that hits the wing of a Valkyrie that has its base on a 6" high hill but also covers models in a unit under the Valkyrie's wing that are not on the same hill are also hit? And this is the case even if the hill is 2 feet high? The effect of the blast template are infinitely downward?

Yes...

Yes, because the rules for blast markers are in essence 2D.

Well that is just slowed!

No, they are an abstraction, like the whole of 40k. Like most abstractions edge cases are weird.

Lord_Mortis wrote:Well that is just slowed!

So is custard. I don't see your point?

just me but for situations like that we use a house rule were a blast template weapon is as high as it is round. stand the template on edge, or use a second one to get a "sphere" area of effect.(centered on the point of impact, such as the valk wing, etc) anything touching or inside this area is hit. rarley comes up, but since explosions tend to be "somewhat" spherical, then it would make sense the blast is as high as it is wide. this is just a house rule we use for odd situations like the valk or other flyers, but it may provide some aid?

DarthSpader wrote:just me but for situations like that we use a house rule were a blast template weapon is as high as it is round. stand the template on edge, or use a second one to get a "sphere" area of effect.(centered on the point of impact, such as the valk wing, etc) anything touching or inside this area is hit. rarley comes up, but since explosions tend to be "somewhat" spherical, then it would make sense the blast is as high as it is wide. this is just a house rule we use for odd situations like the valk or other flyers, but it may provide some aid?

I was thinking the exact same thing the other morning after I posted this. It only makes sense that if the area of affect is defined horizontally by the area of the blast template then it should also be defined laterally by the area of the template as well. So if a skimmer is hovering near the ground by a unit of troops, then the troops stand a good chance of getting hit as well, but if the skimmer is 24" up on a cliff then the only way the troops at the bottom of the cliff should be affected is if the blast template scattered so that the center hole misses the skimmer completely but scatters on top of the unit of troops at the bottom of the cliff.

Gwar! wrote:

Lord_Mortis wrote:Well that is just slowed!

So is custard. I don't see your point?

I am deeply insulted by this.

The multiple "levels" thing (under, etc.) only applies to ruins.

Not hills. Not flying vehicles.

Anyway, it doesn't need to make sense. Wings of flying things are pretty frail, a huge mini-nuke slamming down on it would likely tear it apart and slam into the guys underneath.

Or maybe the wing would rip off and the ship would land on the guys underneath and explode.

For simplicity sake and balance reasons, valks are not a moving roof.

TheBloodGod wrote:
Anyway, it doesn't need to make sense. Wings of flying things are pretty frail, a huge mini-nuke slamming down on it would likely tear it apart and slam into the guys underneath.

Or maybe the wing would rip off and the ship would land on the guys underneath and explode.

So if the shell fails to penetrate the valkyrie, shouldn't the guys below be protected?

This is one of the reasons why I dont count wings... see the whole "wings are not hull" argument. This is also why I argued that the valk is almost unplayable, as if you didnt have the flying stand then there would be no question that you can not stand on or under a wing, just like you could not be under a tank tread.

For blast weapons, IMHO the best solution would be to simply use the oval base as the extent of the vehicle. This way you have simple borders and questions like this wont come up.

Devian, if you don't count wings, I could theoretically hide behind a skinny building and fire two lascannons at you without you being able to return fire. I'm okay with that if you are.

DarthSpader wrote:just me but for situations like that we use a house rule were a blast template weapon is as high as it is round. stand the template on edge, or use a second one to get a "sphere" area of effect.(centered on the point of impact, such as the valk wing, etc) anything touching or inside this area is hit. rarley comes up, but since explosions tend to be "somewhat" spherical, then it would make sense the blast is as high as it is wide. this is just a house rule we use for odd situations like the valk or other flyers, but it may provide some aid?

Gravity. More shrapnel would go down than up which is why I would hesitate to use the spherical approach. The rules give you a pretty easy to follow and simple solution which may not always make sense for a given situation, but will always be consistant.

zeshin wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:just me but for situations like that we use a house rule were a blast template weapon is as high as it is round. stand the template on edge, or use a second one to get a "sphere" area of effect.(centered on the point of impact, such as the valk wing, etc) anything touching or inside this area is hit. rarley comes up, but since explosions tend to be "somewhat" spherical, then it would make sense the blast is as high as it is wide. this is just a house rule we use for odd situations like the valk or other flyers, but it may provide some aid?

Gravity. More shrapnel would go down than up which is why I would hesitate to use the spherical approach. The rules give you a pretty easy to follow and simple solution which may not always make sense for a given situation, but will always be consistant.

Not really important, but: Once the shrapnel is moving slowly enough for gravity to be a factor, it isn't functional shrapnel anymore!

Lord_Mortis wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:A) It is blast marker, not template. Templates are the flamer shaped ones

Tomato. Tom-ah-to.

B) Yes, RAW EVERY model under the blast marker is hit, regardless of any obstruction above it.

Not exactly true. See the rules for ruins.

Which is why I ask the question, as the Valkyrie is physically on another "level" than the troops on the ground as it is technically up in the air.

This is correct, either the valk or the troops are hit in this 3D scenario or at least thats the way we play it, the template hits in a plane.

An interesting side note, we don't cound the wings as part of the hull based on the airforce deffinition of a plane. So you have to hit the hull not the wing.

tgf wrote:An interesting side note, we don't cound the wings as part of the hull based on the airforce deffinition of a plane. So you have to hit the hull not the wing.

An interesting side note, the word you are looking for with an aircraft is "fuselage"; so nothing can ever hit your Valks?

Also, there are no "levels" outside of ruins.

Indeed. RaW you can't ever shoot a Valkyrie/Vendetta, nor can you Disembark without a hill.

Yay for GW!

Gwar! wrote:Indeed. RaW you can't ever shoot a Valkyrie/Vendetta, nor can you Disembark without a hill.

Yay for GW!

Can't you grav-shoot deploy?

Xca|iber wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Indeed. RaW you can't ever shoot a Valkyrie/Vendetta, nor can you Disembark without a hill.

Yay for GW!

Can't you grav-shoot deploy?

Thats a SPESHUL Deployment!

Gwar! wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Indeed. RaW you can't ever shoot a Valkyrie/Vendetta, nor can you Disembark without a hill.

Yay for GW!

Can't you grav-shoot deploy?

Thats a SPESHUL Deployment!

same as moving a monolith having to DS to move on from reserve ... wait wrong thread.

Any way If You don't count the wings on a Valkyrie good luck shooting my Eldar skimmers. There's sweet FA* on the viper and most of the front of the other skimmers is 'wing'.(*Fanny Adams)