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Was wondering which are better in game, Phoenix Guard or White Lions? Wondering which ones to buy first for my 1500pt High Elves. Any help would be welcome.

White Lions in my opinion, they both do similar things though. Great weapons that always strike first is pretty baller.

Neither. For $41 per 10-man plastic box, you might as well just buy the metals on ebay. Or, just use the abundant Swordmasters that'll be floating around. I love White Lions, but there's not way in hell that I'm paying $41 for 10 plastic models.

Or you could buy the box from a reseller and save money...

$70 in Australia m8 haha. Na I'm not fussed about the money, just wanna know who are better in game.

And I have 20 swordmasters already, but want some Phoenix Guard or White Lions but dunno which ones.

White lions are good for being able to pass through woods/forests with no penalty (this includes characters that join them). In addition they are stubborn and get the +2 to their armour save against shooting, which is a good thing especially when you are trying to get them into combat.

Phoenix Guards cause fear and get a 4+ ward save. This is great considering they carry halberds, which is a weakness in itself (two handed weapon so no shield and hand weapon combo)...not many armies negate ward saves.

Depending how you are using your army, is dependent on what unit you will use....and it really comes down to what unit you like the best (I personally like White Lions)

Well I'll mainly be up against an Empire gunline, so which is better for that do you reckon?

This is a tough one.....I would probably go Phoenix Guard.

My reasoning over this:

1-Not a lot of units negate fear in an Empire army

2-4+ ward is gonna be very handy when the time comes to it

In my experience, people would generally leave the units alone that would have a decent ward save since they are tougher to take down, but saying this they will work quite hard to get rid of any supporting units.

Since you are playing HE, one of the expensive (point wise) and fragile army out there, you will need to consider the deployment phase very carefully for some of your elves will take some hitting before anything happens in the first two turns and that will decide the outcome of your game.

Well nothing can really stop a mortar destroying half my unit in one turn, especially with the new rules those things destroy everything.

But I'll probably end up going with the Phoenix Guard purely for the fact that they have a 4+ ward save which will come in handy against a ranged army.

-> Fantasy

I dont understand how one can even compare swordmasters/white lions to phoenix guard and just say use white lions instead lol.. They have totally DIFFERENT uses

You use phoenix guard as an anvil unit and white lions/sword masters as hammers..

Kirasu wrote:I dont understand how one can even compare swordmasters/white lions to phoenix guard and just say use white lions instead lol.. They have totally DIFFERENT uses

You use phoenix guard as an anvil unit and white lions/sword masters as hammers..

But because ASF rule , it means sword master and white lions can still be an anvil unit ( atleast compared to other armiess )
in the way they can butcher most ranks without fear of been striked back.

LunaHound wrote:

Kirasu wrote:I dont understand how one can even compare swordmasters/white lions to phoenix guard and just say use white lions instead lol.. They have totally DIFFERENT uses

You use phoenix guard as an anvil unit and white lions/sword masters as hammers..

But because ASF rule , it means sword master and white lions can still be an anvil unit ( atleast compared to other armiess )
in the way they can butcher most ranks without fear of been striked back.

Gonna be a lot harder to do that though

How can you compare them? How can you differentiate them... They are elite infantry units. ASF is what characterizes them rather than the ward save. Sword Masters are WS6 which makes them harder to hit in a similar way to the Phoenix Guard ward save makes them harder to kill. Lions have a higher save against shooting. The similarity is that they all tear through basic blocks and they can all hold them up.

Hammer/Anvil rather than one or the other imo.

EDIT- Admittedly, the Guard are better at holding and the GW units are better at killing, but my point still stands

Ordo Dakka wrote:How can you compare them? How can you differentiate them... They are elite infantry units. ASF is what characterizes them rather than the ward save. Sword Masters are WS6 which makes them harder to hit in a similar way to the Phoenix Guard ward save makes them harder to kill. Lions have a higher save against shooting. The similarity is that they all tear through basic blocks and they can all hold them up.

Hammer/Anvil rather than one or the other imo.

EDIT- Admittedly, the Guard are better at holding and the GW units are better at killing, but my point still stands

The point doesnt stand if youre saying theyre all anvils. WS6 in no way makes sword masters tougher kill unless you fight a lot of WS6 enemies and high save vs shooting is also not even close to a 4+ ward save. Phoenix guard also dont "tear" through blocks with 1 attack and S4. Again, while white lions and swordmasters are similar.. both are totally different in application to phoenix guard

Im sorry but that whole statement is out of touch with the reality of comparing the units. ASF helps them HIT in a similar fashion but doesnt change their relative damage compared to one another. Neither sword masters nor white lions hold up ANYTHING, if they do then I have no idea what game youre playing when T3 with a 5+ save is an anvil. Phoenix guard are 2x tougher than both units, period

If you're mostly playing against an Empire gunline then I'd definitely go for the Phoenix Guard. The ward save is great, and while in general play this is largely balanced against the White Lions higher attack strength and stubborn rule, you really won't need either of those against . The Str 4 attacks of the Phoenix Guard is more than enough to kill everything in the squishy Empire list, excepting heavy cavalry that he is unlikely to have. The stubborn rule of the White Lions wouldn't be much of an advantage either, as it should be the Empire playing making break tests not you - if you're losing combats something has gone really badly wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ordo Dakka wrote:How can you compare them? How can you differentiate them... They are elite infantry units. ASF is what characterizes them rather than the ward save. Sword Masters are WS6 which makes them harder to hit in a similar way to the Phoenix Guard ward save makes them harder to kill.

No, both WS5 and WS6 will require a 5+ to be hit by a WS2 attacker, and a 4+ to be hit by a WS3 attacker. The only point of difference, defensively, is that a WS6 attacker will hit the PG on a 3+, but hit the SMs on a 4+. This is a trivial difference at best.

That said, I do agree that the PG are too choppy to be considered purely an anvil unit. Certainly not when you're facing an Empire list, in that circumstance you really have to look at every unit as a hammer unit, and look to cross the field as quick as possible and start grinding your way through the Empire list, whose infantry is almost entirely anvil units.

Thank you Sebster, you seemed to grasp the fact that I was asking who would be better against an Empire gunline lol.

I never asked to compare them in general, just who would do better and survive longer against an Empire gunline.

I am also for the Phoenix Guard as well because of the shear survivability of this group. A whole regiment of dudes with a 4++ is going to take a lot of mortar shots to take out. Add to this the fact that you already have a way killy unit (Sword Masters), it seems to me that by taking another destructive unit won't be as good for your army as a whole.

The thing is nobody will shoot the pheonix gaurd, but those swordmasters are going to be priority.

^ this is extremely true as well, come shooting phase and my Hellcannon wants to blow something to bits, I look at those Phoenix Guard and think to myself "What's the point, they're going to save any way? Now those Sword Masters I can kill on two's no armor save, hurr... hurr... hurr...". So there is something to be said about target saturation, still I stand by what I said. My vote is for Phoenix Guard.

White lions maybe if hes more gunline than warmachine line, but i guess thats rare.

Don't great weapons have ASL and that negates the ASF of the Elves?

burning_phoneix wrote:Don't great weapons have ASL and that negates the ASF of the Elves?

High Elves have a special rule that lets them use ASF even with great weapons.

Duke_Corwin wrote:

burning_phoneix wrote:Don't great weapons have ASL and that negates the ASF of the Elves?

High Elves have a special rule that lets them use ASF even with great weapons.

Yup.

Anything someone does, an elf does better

Coz elves are awesome thanks guys, helps out a lot.

It looks like I'm a little late, but I'd also throw in a vote for the Phoenix Guard. Everything else in the High Elves book is so fragile. Of course, this is contingent on your army list, but I bet you already have plenty of high-initiative, high strength troops (Swordmasters look better than White Lions, anyway).

Yeah in my last battle my Swordmasters ripped through a unit of Empire swordsmen with ease, despite being outnumbered by double.