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I just went to my 3rd tournament. The first one I went to all the lists seemed fairly soft. On my second tournament I brought a medium list, and was dramatically underpowered. This 3rd tournament I did very well (won 4 out of 5 games) but was told that I had a very cheesy army. My comp score was poor, and people told me “you are a great guy and I liked playing with you, but your army is cheesy so I’m giving you a poor score”.

I'm personally not a fan of comp since it’s very subjective, and much more dependent on the other player, then you. I really wish they would change the rules to at least have something objective, but it’s in most tournaments, so I'm trying to figure where the cheese line is.

I brought Empire with 8 war machines, a War alter, and a metal mage, no steam tank, halberd, and swordsmen, with a 5 man knight unit were core.
2 helblasters
1 rocket
3 mortars
2 cannons
2 engineers

So in a 2250 to 2500 point game where is the cheese line? 7 war machines, 5, 4, 2?

Do not try to bend your list to eliminate the cheese- that is impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth:

There is no cheese.

Cheese is in the eye of the beholder. It is 100% subjective.

What one considers cheesey, another weak.

Play what you want to play so long as it is legal and be courteous during your games. That should be enough and if it isn't, your opponent is just being difficult.

Reecius wrote:Cheese is in the eye of the beholder. It is 100% subjective.

What one considers cheesey, another weak.

Play what you want to play so long as it is legal and be courteous during your games. That should be enough and if it isn't, your opponent is just being difficult.

Ah, yes, this old argument.

If the question is "did I/would I enjoy playing against this army," then your opponent has every right to answer "no." Because it IS a subjective question. The solution is either to avoid situations where the question is asked (i.e., don't go to events that include opponent-scored comp), or to bring a list that more people enjoy playing against. Or just say screw it, and bring what you want, while accepting the comp hit. (But really, aren't there enough comp/no comp general discussion threads already?)

As to the OP's original question - that is, indeed, an impressive number of war machines. But we're missing a variable - how's the terrain in your tournaments? 8e is designed for 2-3 times as much terrain as 7e was, and if your tournaments haven't adjusted yet, then it's understandable why your opponents might feel like they've been hit by a truck.

as a dwarf player i start to get furled brows from opponents when i go past 5-6 warmachines.

my standard dwarf 2250 runs:

anvil
2 grudge throwers
2 naked bolt throwers

i could go alot higher, but once your opponents learn to deal with the gunline your assed out. i like a healthy blend. i like comp, and i relaize my dwarf list is hard, and ill take a hit on it if i have to.

@Janthkin

It is a tired old argument, but I had to throw my hat in the ring!

At a tournament, I honestly believe you should bring what you want.

For fun games I ask my opponent what they want to play, a tournament list or a softer list. That usually takes away any hurt feelings.

Ogres with Gorgers like to disagree with your opponent.

If you care about those scores, and 8 is too much, bring 7 next time.

That's a lot of war machines. I'm going to a 2999 tournament next month and that caps war machines at 5 and frankly after a practice game against Empire I think they ought to be capping template war machines at two. At 2250 - 2500 I'd say about 4 is about the right number.

If the tournament's comp was player marked I'm not surprised you got marked down as I cannot imagine that your list was any fun to play against.

@WW: You play a HtH horde army, right?

If you win your army is cheese.

If you lose your opponents army is cheese.

If you tie, go out and have a beer together.

The answer to your question is obviously 42

@Cryonicleech: I see your Gorgers and raise you a boosted casting of the Comet of Casanadora.

Dont worry about comp. The people who cry about it shouldnt belong at tournaments. Sorry but if you go play at a tournament and get your face smashed then you have no fault but your own. You either just got outplayed, or brought a bad list. Shake your opponents hand. Losing games due to gakky dice rolls suck, but its not your opponents fault. The only time I will dock someone points is if they are a dick or cheat.

N = number of warmachines you want to take
Cheese = N+1
===
Conclusion: take whatever you want. Comp is a broken concept foisted on the modern tournament scene by dinosaurs complaining about problems from previous editions.

So, as the owner of 2 Great Cannon, 2 Helblasters, a Steam Tank, adding a Mortar would be cheese, but fielding my Dragon, Griffon, and Wizards would not? OK.

kartofelkopf wrote: Comp is a broken concept foisted on the modern tournament scene by dinosaurs complaining about problems from previous editions.

Never was such a difficult subject described so simply and beautifully.

I bring 3 Mortars, 3 GCannons, 2 Helstorms, and two Engineers. Don't feel bad, its Empire. We don one thing well - shoot. Make it count!

JohnHwangDD wrote:@WW: You play a HtH horde army, right?

A reasonably balanced HE actually. If I'd had a horde HtH army I might have had some units left to get into HtH with

The point about empire doing war machines well, is the right spirit. All you have to do is go against the skaven storm banner and all that shooty goodness could be wasted. I have tried playing empire with minimal shooting and it is very hard to win with only a few war machines.

Personally, I like to mix things up because I enjoy variety in my empire list so I probably wouldn't do more than 5. Going massive warmachine in empire, is kind of a no brainer.( I mean that in a Target easy button kind of way)

GG

Wargame Website wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@WW: You play a HtH horde army, right?

A reasonably balanced HE actually. If I'd had a horde HtH army I might have had some units left to get into HtH with

Oh, OK. That actually makes a *LOT* of sense. Thanks for clarifying.

BTW, this is why it's nice to put armies in your signature.

and people told me “you are a great guy and I liked playing with you, but your army is cheesy so I’m giving you a poor score”.

...seriously? Pure. Concentrated. Douchebag.

How big of an donkey-cave do you have to be to say that?

If you're complaining about cheese, why are you at a tournament? Why are you, at a tournament, even allowed to "score" your opponent's army based on how hard it is to beat? God damn I hate this game.

Even though this is about Fantasy and not 40k...it's still the same BS that plagues both games though!

Up to 3000 points I'd say 5 is pushing your luck (and that includes 1 steam tank).

2 steam tanks is OTT, no matter how many other warmachines are present.

At 3k i play 6 Great Cannon, 3 mortars, 2 helstorms. If i had the money id get another 3 mortars and 2 helstorms.

At 2.5k id just drop 3 cannon.

Play what you want dude!

Vitruvian XVII wrote:At 3k i play 6 Great Cannon, 3 mortars, 2 helstorms. If i had the money id get another 3 mortars and 2 helstorms.

Whoa!

"Bring the noise!" indeed!

Hehe! I play Nuln so its pretty fluffy.

I have to say, i usually lose, the WMs do horrendous damage but theres so little else in the army that as soon as the enemy get close its over!

Also, Storm Banner sucks ass!

JohnHwangDD wrote:So, as the owner of 2 Great Cannon, 2 Helblasters, a Steam Tank, adding a Mortar would be cheese, but fielding my Dragon, Griffon, and Wizards would not? OK.

The point was that there's no amount that is 'cheese.' If you wanted to take 6, 7 would be cheese. If you wanted 7, 8 would be cheese, etc...

It seems like this list, or any like it, would struggle mightily against the Skaven Storm Banner. There are more skaven armies now than you can swing a dead cat at--aren't you afraid of this inevitable match up?

Try this:

Set up your army with your opponent.

Switch armies once.

Play game for FUN.

Answer own question.

Just because you can take all optimal units doesnt mean you have to. If you want to play the most "optimized list in a WAAC environment" you may need to find tournaments that dont cater to list>fluff/fun/painting, like hardboys.

If your looking for balance in a non hardboys tournament than I suggest playing an army that makes your opponent feel like your using tactics beyond point cannon roll repeat. Its the inclusion of your opponent in the game while defeating him that yields comp. Your aiming at fooling your opponent into thinking he has a chance to win, when that illision is lost before the end of turn 2 your comp is squatted.

I like the 40K reference but its not quite the same. Fantasy (esp 8th) is so unpredictable that any list based around war machines or magic will never be "optimal" and play optimally.
I think fantasy is all about bringing the most rediculus selection of death-dealing madness you can and then having either the dice gods or some special rule throw it back in your face. Love it.