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So, A lot of people tell me I should use my Defiler's with two DCCW's..You know, that standard one
I realize they don't have a lot of options, but I was thinking about possible loadouts, and that lascannon could be really helpful...Also, a heavy flamer would be pretty awesome too....How do you prefer your defilers?

I know it's not the best idea to make them shooty (3BS,meh), but it's hard to resist with all those good options In all honesty, I think the standard loadout is pretty balanced...Just me though.

I'm partial to the heavy flamer as well, but I think the general feeling is that the Defiler should be running, not shooting.

BS 3 is still good BS
BS 2... now that's troubling

I run mine +1CCW (not a DCCW as I recently discovered) and TL Lascannon. (In addition to the stock DCCWs and BC).

I'd run them with only CCWs, but with 3 defilers, I don't have too many points left over for good long range tank/transport busters. I know an S8 Ordnance pie plate is long range anti transport, but I never hit with them when I need to.

On the other hand, if I feel I'm covered as far as the rest of my list is concerned, I'll definitely just give them +2CCWs and move+run until I hit the enemy line. This only works against some armies though.

I'd suggest HF & DNCCW or pure CCWs. I look at it as mobile artillery which can defend itself if need be.

The only problem with the defiler is his battle cannon. Being an ordnance weapon the defiler may not fire ANYTHING else if he is choosing to fire the cannon. Yeah you could give the defiler a TL lascannon, but you can get a BS4 pred with one for cheaper, AND the pred has higher front armor.

Defilers have two rolls. sit in the back and drop pie plates all day, assault something if it gets to close and rip it apart.

or go with all CC arms and fleet it into the enemy with 7 str10 attacks on a charge.

CCW and Reaper Autocannon. Because the fact the moment weapon destroyed is rolled the cannon is gone so I still want something to fire as I advance.

I go with the CCW and Reaper combo, seems to work fairly well.

Seeing as the heavy flamer can't legally fire, you should probably avoid that one.

Seeing as the battle cannon is an Ordnance weapon, meaning you can't fire anything else if you want to fire it, you may want to stick with dual DCCWs.

running him stock is fine, if they destory your BC you still have a couple other weapons, and if he is immobile at least he has 45 degree weapon arc. You don't really want to make him ore expensive than he already is considering he is an armor 12.

SaintHazard wrote:Seeing as the heavy flamer can't legally fire, you should probably avoid that one.

Sorry?

The Heavy Flamer is for when you've got crunchies up close and don't want to drop pie because you're afraid it'll back-scatter.

MekanobSamael wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Seeing as the heavy flamer can't legally fire, you should probably avoid that one.

Sorry?

With a 45 degree firing arc, there is no way to legally place the template without covering part of your own model (i.e. the legs).

The Defiler cannot legally fire its flamer.

Wat. That's strange.

Yep. I got caught on that one myself not too long ago. But it's true. And it sucks.

At my FLGS, we house-rule that one so that vehicles can fire template weapons even if it covers part of the vehicle. Because it's kind of stupid for Defilers, Baal Predators, and Bane Wolfs not to be able to fire their template weapons at all, ever. Even IG tanks with hull-mounted HFs have trouble, depending on how they're modeled. So house ruling that one is fine, but tournaments may be different.

I'm an all-CCW kinda guy myself. I've yet to ever fire anything other than the pie plate from one, so I figure I might as well not bother taking any other guns and just run headlong into the fray.


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Also, it's downright stupid that a defiler can't fire the flame thrower that's waaaay above the legs because the template hits therm. RAW, I know, but still stupid.

I like 2 extra DCCW's plus battle cannon. If you really want another gun take a reaper autocannon instead of a 2nd DCCW. The heavy flamer is just too short ranged considering the massive footprint of the defiler model.

SaintHazard wrote:

MekanobSamael wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Seeing as the heavy flamer can't legally fire, you should probably avoid that one.

Sorry?

With a 45 degree firing arc, there is no way to legally place the template without covering part of your own model (i.e. the legs).

The Defiler cannot legally fire its flamer.

It can IMO. Technically by your interpretation of the rules since a dreadnought has a base it can't fire its flamer either. The people you play with are real WAAC if they would even bring this up. Weapons don't count as part of the hull, neither to decorative bits, so the question is do legs count as part of the hull (since its not a based model). Realistically, almost nothing in the game can fire a flamer under this interpretation. I have play at adepticon and chicago games day every year (except for last) and have made it to the second round of Ard Boyz twice. I have seen a multitude of flamer shots from defilers, out the fire point of a rhino and from dreads. Never once was its legality questioned. What kind of people do you play with?

On a side note an interesting point is made about the defilers foot print and effectiveness of the flamer. I have a demons army so while I don't actually own a defiler I am familiar with the problem of the baseless, strangely shaped model (Soul Grinder). We choose count is hull as no legs so it is roughly the shape and size of a rhino. Page 56 of the codex is the only place that really addresses this type of thing and it is vague at best. On page 16 the LOS rules are interesting as they mention tracing LOS to a model using its legs, however in the very next sentence they say we don't want to penalize models for being particularly impressive. It could probably go either way as some may argue the LOS on page 16 is in reference to based models, and the LOS on 56 is specifically related to vehicles. Either way in even the biggest WAAC tournament Ard' Boyz I would expect the heavy flamer to be allowed to fire and any person that complained about it to be the topic of many jokes by the end of the day.

Good post, but it still stands that the Hflamer is way too short ranged to do much anyway

tgf wrote:
...snip. Stuff about Legs counting.

The legs count as part of the hull when measuring to and from walkers with no base. Ergo, it counts for all forms of shooting. This is clearly stated in the walker rules (and references the Defiler SPECIFICALLY), despite this causing all manner of annoying problems. Most people I've met will let you fire it anyway. (Like most middle-ground reasonable people).

Either way, it's too short ranged to be of much use on a defiler, as some have pointed out. Your Defiler should never be close enough to fire it - if he's too far out he should run to get into the assault. Honestly, the only time you would want it is if you're 12-14" away from a unit that can hurt your Defiler in assault, but not after suffering some casualties. This is because if you're further than 14" the flamer template won't hit, and if you're closer than 12" when you move in, the other unit can assault you on their turn, defeating the purpose of positioning yourself to fire the flamer.

^ What he said.

RAW, the flamer cannot legally fire.

Do most people house rule it? Like I said (and apparently you weren't paying attention, tgf, because I DID say this) I house rule it, and so does everyone else I know.

But that's all it is, a house rule. The actual rules say you can't fire a template weapon if any part of the template covers a friendly model, so legally, Defilers cannot fire their template weapon.

I don't mean to derail this thread but I thought walkers could fire all their weapons and move here's the passage I'm looking at: page 72

"Walkers can move and fire all their weapons, just like a stationary vehicle"

I interpreted this as walkers having what is essentially Relentless for vehicles, i.e. they always count as stationary when firing.


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Ok nevermind I just realized even if you are stationary you can only fire ordnance, But I can still move the defiler and shoot the battle cannon right?

asimo77 wrote:I don't mean to derail this thread but I thought walkers could fire all their weapons and move here's the passage I'm looking at: page 72

"Walkers can move and fire all their weapons, just like a stationary vehicle"

I interpreted this as walkers having what is essentially Relentless for vehicles, i.e. they always count as stationary when firing.


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Ok nevermind I just realized even if you are stationary you can only fire ordnance, But I can still move the defiler and shoot the battle cannon right?

Correct.

The only vehicle I ever had to worry about was the monolith, but ever since getting these chaos crazies I've had to learn "real" vehicle rules so it's fairly new to me.

Stupid non-14-armour-all-around-living-metal-pieces-of-junk!

Generally I like summing up Defiler's with my friends reaction when facing one that ended up costing him the game because he was unaware:

"What do you mean the Defiler has fleet?"

Now then, to go along with further silliness, I cannot see anyone not letting you fire the flamer. Or at least, no one you want to continue playing with. Also, the flamer is a good weapon to have for that nice sweet spot where you're close enough to make the charge without fleeting, but you want to rack up a few more wounds. 1-2 more may mean the difference between wiping out the squad or getting torn to shreds by a power fist.

Ummmm... Aren't Hv Flamers assault weapons? And since they are, then you could move, fire the HF and still charge into HtH, right? So what's the problem? With a FA:12 SA:12 RA:10, you can't even hurt yourself with a HF (Str 5, Ap 4) as long as you don't fire backwards, so I don't see the problem there either...

J'santai Khan wrote:Ummmm... Aren't Hv Flamers assault weapons? And since they are, then you could move, fire the HF and still charge into HtH, right? So what's the problem? With a FA:12 SA:12 RA:10, you can't even hurt yourself with a HF (Str 5, Ap 4) as long as you don't fire backwards, so I don't see the problem there either...

The issue is that RAW, you may not fire a flamer if it touches any part of friendly models, firer included. Thus, if the flamer covers part of the defiler (it does) then it cannot fire at all. It's not a matter of if you can hurt yourself with it.

And yes, you may move and shoot and assault with the flamer, but its reach is somewhat lacking (especially as it fires from the central body). I agree that it can get you those couple extra kills, but remember that you are also getting 1 more attack in CC if you give it a CCW instead. And that weapon is S10 armour ignoring (barring damage, of course).

J'santai Khan wrote:Ummmm... Aren't Hv Flamers assault weapons? And since they are, then you could move, fire the HF and still charge into HtH, right? So what's the problem? With a FA:12 SA:12 RA:10, you can't even hurt yourself with a HF (Str 5, Ap 4) as long as you don't fire backwards, so I don't see the problem there either...

Yes they are assault weapons, but if your defiler isn't close enough to score a decent amount of hits on the flamer, wouldn't you rather Fleet it closer to get into assault?

J'santai Khan wrote:Ummmm... Aren't Hv Flamers assault weapons? And since they are, then you could move, fire the HF and still charge into HtH, right? So what's the problem? With a FA:12 SA:12 RA:10, you can't even hurt yourself with a HF (Str 5, Ap 4) as long as you don't fire backwards, so I don't see the problem there either...

You'd be right if 1) the Defiler was infantry (it's a vehicle), 2) vehicles (specifically walkers) couldn't fire heavy weapons and then charge into CC (they can), and 3) the issue was hurting yourself with the flamer.

The reason you can't fire the Defiler's flamer has to do with legal template placement. Per template weapon rules, you must place the template so as to cover as many enemy models as possible without hitting any friendly models. If you can't hit enemy models without hitting your own models, including the one firing the flamer, you cannot legally fire the flamer. Since the Defiler (like all walkers) has a 45 degree firing arc for its flamer, there is no legal placement for the template.

The Defiler HF would actually be pretty cool if they made it like the Hellhound (?) flamer. So you place the narrow end, say up to 6" from the weapon mount, and the large end no closer to the defiler.

Then it might be justified (and bypass the annoying issue altogether).