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Anyone who follows or has been to my 40k blog knows I run Salamanders, Space Wolves, and Orks. I recently finished a unit of Thunderwolf Cavalry and another contributor finished modeling his as well. I have run into TWC in several games now and my Salamanders are having a tough time dealing with them. My record vs. Wolves with my Salamanders is 2-3 the 2 games I lost are games where I faced a unit of TWC. I have been kicking around several ideas.

First overwhelm the TWC with 15+ TH/SS terminators or Second a combo of 2 Vindicators and 10 TH/SS terminators working in unison to break the unit down. Those are really the only things I can think of to combat TWC with out tooling my entire list to beat them.

What are people on Dakka who use Vanilla marines doing to combat Thunderwolf Cavalry?

Sterngaurd with a librarian?

Perhaps you should show us your all-comer list first, so we can provide advice beyond "take this unit."

Heavy Bolters. TONs of them!

Well, as a Wolf player I think the one thing one of the locals came up as a "theory" to deal with them was the Librarian w/ Null Zone and a Vindicator and Dev squad (or just more HW fire to clean up)... Still, requires some luck on the setup for the combo...

Assault Terminators are wasted on Thunderwolf Cavalry since they won't be vulnerable to Instant Death, have enough attacks to get past Sv2+, and are more mobile. Oh, and if the Terminators beat them in combat, they won't be able to roll them up in a Sweeping Advance. Assault Terminators also need a Land Raider transport, so you'll have 2-3x the points for a less than even chance of engaging them on their own terms.

Similarly Sternguard will work if they can overcome the problem of both sneaking up on the Thunderwolf Cavalry unit with their greater mobility, and murdering them before they can be caught in combat, and they will get murdered in combat without a screening unit.

Strategically speaking I think you're better off with a unit of Devastators armed with four Heavy Bolters. Combat squad the Devastators into a unit with Heavy Bolters and Signum, and a unit with Bolters. Form the Bolters into a skirmish line in front of the Heavy Bolters. No worries about giving the Thunderwolf Cavalry a cover save because Heavy Bolters won't defeat their armour or invulnerable saves anyways. The 36" range will let you shoot at them outside their charge range, and the screening unit will prevent them from locking the Heavy Bolters up in combat while not locking them down barring seriously bad luck on the part of the Thunderwolves. Heavy Bolters also mean that the Invulnerable saves from Storm Shields will be wasted points. Make sure the back-stopping unit is positioned 2" behind their screening unit, and full coherency spread so that the screening unit can Fall Back through them and maximize their chance of automatic Regrouping because the Thunderwolf unit won't be able to consolidate more than 1" closer.

Stay away from them and shoot them. Preferably with Vindicators.

What size is the unit of TWC you usually face, and do they all have SS?

Nurglitch wrote:Assault Terminators are wasted on Thunderwolf Cavalry since they won't be vulnerable to Instant Death, have enough attacks to get past Sv2+, and are more mobile. Oh, and if the Terminators beat them in combat, they won't be able to roll them up in a Sweeping Advance. Assault Terminators also need a Land Raider transport, so you'll have 2-3x the points for a less than even chance of engaging them on their own terms.

Similarly Sternguard will work if they can overcome the problem of both sneaking up on the Thunderwolf Cavalry unit with their greater mobility, and murdering them before they can be caught in combat, and they will get murdered in combat without a screening unit.

Strategically speaking I think you're better off with a unit of Devastators armed with four Heavy Bolters. Combat squad the Devastators into a unit with Heavy Bolters and Signum, and a unit with Bolters. Form the Bolters into a skirmish line in front of the Heavy Bolters. No worries about giving the Thunderwolf Cavalry a cover save because Heavy Bolters won't defeat their armour or invulnerable saves anyways. The 36" range will let you shoot at them outside their charge range, and the screening unit will prevent them from locking the Heavy Bolters up in combat while not locking them down barring seriously bad luck on the part of the Thunderwolves. Heavy Bolters also mean that the Invulnerable saves from Storm Shields will be wasted points. Make sure the back-stopping unit is positioned 2" behind their screening unit, and full coherency spread so that the screening unit can Fall Back through them and maximize their chance of automatic Regrouping because the Thunderwolf unit won't be able to consolidate more than 1" closer.

Devestators with Heavy Bolters are not an all-comer option. Hypothetically, next game is against mech IG...see the dilemma?

Assault Terminators will still get the job done, especially since they should have a Land Raider anyway. You should not *try* Sweeping Advance against Thunderwolves anyway because of "And they Shall Know No Fear", but keeping a fast unit nearby to escort them away from combat works too.

I kill thunderwolf cavalry with Demolishers...

Lysander owns TWC. Put him in with your Assault Termies and watch the magic happen.

Unless they have a character attached you can use anything that forces a leadership check. Nothing better than running them off the table.

IN the games where mine have died they are either shot down to a point where HtH is not a good thing or they are ran off the table.

Two interesting things I have seen that really sucked for my wolves.

Game 1. Rhino tanks shock Wolf Lord and 5 T. Wolves. Roll an 11 and run. 1 turn later they run off the table. Over 600 points of awesome gone without taking 1 wound.

Game 2. T. Wolves engaged a unit of Bloodcrushers. Behind that combat is a unit of Grey hunters. A second unit of Bloodcrushers multi-assaults the grey hunters and the T. Wolves. Now all of the wounds count for the overall win/loss of the HtH. I lose and breaks the T. Wolves and they again are run off the table.

Other than that shoot the crap out of them with whatever you have to shoot with.

Depends on how the Twolves are kitted out. sometimes they'll swing first and kill some termies, othertimes not. If you invest that much in trying to kill them, you're wasting too many points against them. As a wolf player, the 2 things that get them for me are (since I'd never charge TH/SS Termies)

1. Vindicators- 2 of them usually works.

2. Stay away! Sure they can move up to 24 inches, but that gives you time to reposition your forces and either plasma, autocannon, melta, flamestorm, or rocket them to death.

Asgeirr Darkwolf wrote:Depends on how the Twolves are kitted out. sometimes they'll swing first and kill some termies, othertimes not. If you invest that much in trying to kill them, you're wasting too many points against them. As a wolf player, the 2 things that get them for me are (since I'd never charge TH/SS Termies)

1. Vindicators- 2 of them usually works.

2. Stay away! Sure they can move up to 24 inches, but that gives you time to reposition your forces and either plasma, autocannon, melta, flamestorm, or rocket them to death.

How can they move 24? They're cavalry and they aren't Fleet.

All Cavalry have Fleet.

All Cavalry are Fleet as well.

MagicJuggler:

Actually the Heavy Bolters can then Combat Squad as two fire teams on the flanks of the Space Marine force. S5 ain't much, but it beats the AV10 of a Chimera's sides. Plus they're also effective against Imperial Guardsmen.

MagicJuggler wrote:Perhaps you should show us your all-comer list first, so we can provide advice beyond "take this unit."

These lists aren't my all comers lists they are just what I am interested in playing right now. I have so many models that I am often using old the old stand by(Vulkan + TH/SS Termies) and building out a list based on what I have recently finished painting.

List 1:
HQ
Vulkan
Captain RB/Combi-melta
Command Squad 3flamers 2 meltaguns Drop Pod

Elites
10 TH/SS Terminators

Troops
Tac Squad MG MM PF Combi-melta Drop Pod
Tac Squad Flamer ML PF Combi-melta Rhino
Tac Squad Flamer ML PW Combi-flamer

Fast Attack
2x Land Speeder Storms w/MM

Heavy Support
2x Vindicator EA SS

List 2:
HQ
Vulkan

Elites
10 TH/SS Terminators
5 TH/SS Terminators LRR MM EA
3 LC 2TH/SS Terminators

Troops
Scouts (5) BP/CCW PFx2
Scouts (10) Sniper rifles

Fast Attack
2x Land Speeder Storms w/MM

Heavy Support
Land Raider MM EA

Generally I face a Lord TWM FB SS+5 TWC w/ 1SS MotW PF 1MB. The armies with TWC will generally be rounded out with GH in Rhinos, Wolf Scouts, and DPs w/ 3WG with Combi-meltas. Another combo I run into a lot is Ragnar w/GH in a Rhino running along side the TWC so he can give the TWC furious charge. Hope that info helps with the feed back. How would Sternguard with a Librarian take out Sternguard? Maybe 10 Sternguard in a pod w/ Lysander so you can re-roll to hit and wound on a 2+.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I have an extensive collection of Salamanders so almost any unit is a possibility.

Why not bring some scouts to ride in those Storms?

OverwatchCNC wrote:

MagicJuggler wrote:Troops
Scouts (5) BP/CCW PFx2
Scouts (10) Sniper rifles

I did bring scouts.

Pretty sure he means list 1, Dude....

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Pretty sure he means list 1, Dude....

Thanks, man. I thought I was losing it for a minute.

You Know what every ponce in power armour riding a drooling doggy hates? Not being invited to the party. Remember that as cavalry TWC can NOT enter CC on anything but the ground floor, so set squads up so they can't be assaulted and ignore them, use any spare firepower at them(after dealing with more pressing Priority targets) and kill em with attrition. Librarians with null zone and vindicator shell also make TWC cry.

The Strange Dude wrote:You Know what every ponce in power armour riding a drooling doggy hates? Not being invited to the party. Remember that as cavalry TWC can NOT enter CC on anything but the ground floor, so set squads up so they can't be assaulted and ignore them, use any spare firepower at them(after dealing with more pressing Priority targets) and kill em with attrition.

Incorrect. Nothing in 5th edition restricts Cavalry or Beasts from entering buildings or going beyond the first floor of ruins.

Nurglitch wrote:

The Strange Dude wrote:You Know what every ponce in power armour riding a drooling doggy hates? Not being invited to the party. Remember that as cavalry TWC can NOT enter CC on anything but the ground floor, so set squads up so they can't be assaulted and ignore them, use any spare firepower at them(after dealing with more pressing Priority targets) and kill em with attrition.

Incorrect. Nothing in 5th edition restricts Cavalry or Beasts from entering buildings or going beyond the first floor of ruins.

I think you'll find, upon reading the rules for ruins, that you are mistaken.

Monster Rain:

The Rulebook, The Rules Section: Unit Types, Beasts & Cavalry, p.54 wrote:Movement
Beasts and cavalry move like Infantry.
...
Assault
Otherwise, they assault just like Infantry

Nurglitch wrote:Monster Rain:

The Rulebook, The Rules Section: Unit Types, Beasts & Cavalry, p.54 wrote:Movement
Beasts and cavalry move like Infantry.
...
Assault
Otherwise, they assault just like Infantry

The rules for ruins.

I'd give you the page, but the BRB is in the car and my wife has it.

You mean these rules:

The Rulebook, The Rules Section: Buildings, Moving Within Ruins, p.83 wrote:Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can be physically placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin.

So I can see why you might think that this prohibits Beasts and Cavalry from moving to and on the upper levels of a ruin so long as you ignore the movement rules for Beasts and Cavalry, but since Beasts and Cavalry move like Infantry and Infantry can move to and on the upper levels of a ruin, so can Beasts and Cavalry.

Nurglitch wrote:You mean these rules:

The Rulebook, The Rules Section: Buildings, Moving Within Ruins, p.83 wrote:Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can be physically placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin.

So I can see why you might think that this prohibits Beasts and Cavalry from moving to and on the upper levels of a ruin so long as you ignore the movement rules for Beasts and Cavalry, but since Beasts and Cavalry move like Infantry and Infantry can move to and on the upper levels of a ruin, so can Beasts and Cavalry.

Moves LIKE infantry is not the same as being infantry. only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures and walkers can access upper levels not Cavalry or Beasts.

It's a similar argument to the Hive Tyrant with wings 'moving like jump infantry' not being allowed to deepstrike as that is an ability of jump infantry.

Nurglitch wrote:You mean these rules:

The Rulebook, The Rules Section: Buildings, Moving Within Ruins, p.83 wrote:Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can be physically placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin.

So I can see why you might think that this prohibits Beasts and Cavalry from moving to and on the upper levels of a ruin so long as you ignore the movement rules for Beasts and Cavalry, but since Beasts and Cavalry move like Infantry and Infantry can move to and on the upper levels of a ruin, so can Beasts and Cavalry.

I sincerely don't want to quibble over rules right now so I'll just say that it says "infantry" specifically, and not "units that move like infantry" and we can agree to disagree, yeah?