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Heavy Bolters are way underrated.

Somehow, the idea that the only criteria on whether or not to bring a heavy weapon is it's statistical chance for wrecking a vehicle has placed a stranglehold on tactics discussions.

With a transport carrying assault troops, I'm more than happy with a stun or immobilization. Heavy Bolters do this to Trukks and Raiders pretty competently.

Rifleman Dreads?

Davicus wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:MagicJuggler:

Actually the Heavy Bolters can then Combat Squad as two fire teams on the flanks of the Space Marine force. S5 ain't much, but it beats the AV10 of a Chimera's sides. Plus they're also effective against Imperial Guardsmen.

I LOL-ed at this
Is there anyone here who takes Heavy Bolters on Devastators?

My Long Fang units take 3ML 2 HB. Sometimes I take 3PC 2HB. HB put out a lot of shots at str5 which is still good. Not everything has to kill a vehicle, mowing down hordes of infantry is good too.

Some things that scare my TWC:

Missiles

VINDICATORS!

TH/ SS termies, if they can survive and get to them.

Thats about it outside of powerweapons and powerfists.

Nurglitch wrote:Destroying vehicles is good, but over-rated. Being able to Shake, Stun, or Damage vehicles is also good.
But speaking of destroying AV10, someone check these numbers:
3 Attacks, hitting on 3+ (4/6), penetrating on 6 (1/6), destroying on 5+ (2/6).
3*(4/6)*(1/6)*(2/6) = 0.11

Monster Rain wrote:Heavy Bolters are way underrated.
Somehow, the idea that the only criteria on whether or not to bring a heavy weapon is it's statistical chance for wrecking a vehicle has placed a stranglehold on tactics discussions.
With a transport carrying assault troops, I'm more than happy with a stun or immobilization. Heavy Bolters do this to Trukks and Raiders pretty competently.

I guess I don't need to show you guys how statistically MLs are much better than HB, even if it's to shake or stun transports?
No one says anything about destroying vehicles, we are talking about the chances of glancing or penetrating vehicles. And even against infantry, MLs has got its small pie plate for flexibility.
Sorry, I haven't really seen anyone took HBs in devastator squad in any tournament yet, and I ll never understand why anyone should.

OverwatchCNC wrote:
My Long Fang units take 3ML 2 HB. Sometimes I take 3PC 2HB. HB put out a lot of shots at str5 which is still good. Not everything has to kill a vehicle, mowing down hordes of infantry is good too.

Quit using your LongFangs the wrong way. SWs don't need Long Fangs to kill infantry.

Davicus:

Apparently labmouse42 was talking about destroying vehicles...

Nurglitch wrote:Davicus:

Apparently labmouse42 was talking about destroying vehicles...

Apparently, I was laughing at the suggestion of taking HBs on Devastators, nothing else...

Well, if you're going to say things like:

Davicus wrote:No one says anything about destroying vehicles, we are talking about the chances of glancing or penetrating vehicles.

After someone else has said:

Labmouse42 wrote:A HB has a ~3.8% of destroying AV 10. A missle launcher has a ~14.82% of destroying AV 10. I would use a ML for that role.

Then don't be so taken aback when someone points out that it is not the case.

I m just pointing out that advising someone to take HBs on devastator is a joke. Maybe I should have expressed myself clearly

And to prove you wrong further, be it stunning or destroying a vehicle, ML have a better chance of doing so than HBs, after accounting for everything. And in the current metagame, this is absolutely important.

I think it was the snide condescension I was having trouble with, or perhaps it was the way you denigrated other people's opinions without offering any justification for believing your own.

Nurglitch wrote:I think it was the snide condescension I was having trouble with, or perhaps it was the way you denigrated other people's opinions without offering any justification for believing your own.

Really? You need someone to explain why HBs are a joke on devastators, especially in 4th ed?
Snide or not I don't know, but a fact is a fact.
Now tell me, you bring devastators (say if you bring them) with HBs to tournament games? Really?

Davicus wrote:I m just pointing out that advising someone to take HBs on devastator is a joke. Maybe I should have expressed myself clearly

And to prove you wrong further, be it stunning or destroying a vehicle, ML have a better chance of doing so than HBs, after accounting for everything. And in the current metagame, this is absolutely important.

It isn't a joke to take HB. If you'd pay attention to the title of the thread we are talking about the best way to take out Thunderwolf Cavalry with Vanilla Marines and the argument for ML v. HB Devastators came from that. Your point about HB being bad at destroying tanks is a moot point in context of my original question which was how best to kill TWC. If you guys feel like debating ML v. HB and destroying vehicles may I suggest starting your own thread on the subject? I would prefer to only be getting notifications about this thread that are relevant to my original question. I don't mean to be a jerk, I just want this to stay on topic.

OverwatchCNC has a very good point.

Please stay on topic here, and if anyone feels the need to address the side issues brought up in this thread, it would be best to do so in a NEW thread.

Thanks!

Anpu42 wrote:Rifleman Dreads?

I hadn't thought of that. A lot of autocannon shots should put a decent number of wounds on the TWC. Thanks for that advice, sorry it took a while to respond I had to wade through a tide of irrelevant posts before getting to it but it was worth coming across something else I hadn't thought of!

It's a nice idea, but the problem with that idea is that the safe place to be will be in close combat with the Dreadnought.

Though speaking of Dreadnoughts though, there is a tactic I've been using that works well against enemy assault troops. Basically you need two units, a Tactical Squad and a Dreadnought. The Tactical Squad forms a 'cup' around the rear and sides of the Dreadnought so anyone charging them will have to charge the Dreadnought and visa versa. Basically it forces a multi-charge. The 'horns' or sides of the cup are the squad's specialists, the special weapon and heavy weapon gunners, while the rest take cover behind the Dreadnought.

Once in combat the combined might of the Tactical Squad and the Dreadnought will probably lose the combat, but Dreadnoughts are vehicles and don't suffer from No Retreat. They lock the unit in place while the Tactical Squad withdrawals.

So take a Dreadnought with Twin-Linked Autocannons, a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, and a Storm Bolter, and pair him up with a Tactical Squad with a Plasma Gun and a Heavy Bolter. To get to the Tactical Squad the Thunderwolf Cavalry is going to have to engage the Dreadnought in close combat (unless it gets its ass shot off first...), because it's mobile and can interpose itself between the Thunderwolves and the Tactical Squad (and any fancy angled movement is going to shorten the charge distance).

Nice tip Nurglitch, I will need to give that some thought as well. I was also thinking about taking 2 Ironclad Dreads and 10 TH/SS termies in my front line backed up by some shooting from tacs and devs. Hopefully once the TWC get to me they will be whittled down enough that a charge from the Ironclads and/or the Termies will mop them up. This will also, I believe, provide me with enough flexibility to take on the remainder of the SW army once the TWC have been effectively taken care of.

Ok to sum up. So far we have:

2-3 Vindicators
ML/HB Devs
Dakka Dread with Tac back up
Massive amounts of bolter fire
Lysander
TH/SS Terminators
Ironclads

Looks like a pretty good list of units to try out. Thanks for the help. Can anyone think of something we missed?

I'd add in regular Terminators. Their Power Fists hit as hard as Thunder Hammers (short of the Initiative penalty inflicted on multi-wound models) and they trade survivability in the form of an improved Invulnerable save (against rending and Thunder Hammers) for firepower. I think in Warhammer the best defense is a good offense, the earlier the better. Storm Bolters will give you the opportunity to douse the Thunderwolves in fire while backing up - Terminators can be as mobile as tanks when they try. Depending on terrain you can get up to two turns of shooting at them. More if you have Cyclones.

I now realize that I'm an unashamed Lysander fanboy.

Putting him with the squad of Tactical Terminators will twin-link your Storm Bolters and allow you to laugh off Lascannon shots with his Storm Shield, or failing that, Eternal Warrior.

I've faced TWC several times now, and theonly ting that's reliably killed them are Vindicator shots (if you can get them on-target), and Dreads.
Due to the cost of the weaponry, and the benefits of wound allocation shenanigans, you won't typically see a whole ton of powerfists and hammers in a TWC unit. This is the perfect chance to use paired Dreads. Venerables, and Ironclads, are golden. Venerables force rerolls of killing hits, and Ironclads reduce the number of attacks coming at them (via assault launchers), plus have AV13 and more attacks than other Dreads when not armed with Hurricane Bolters. Keep the two Dreads close to one another, and have them rescue eachother when charged, or charge into the TWC with both at the same time.
Every failed invulnerable save is a downed TWC model, and typically two points toward combat res. Multiple kills of TWC models adds up fast, and they'll be hard-pressed to mount enough effective hits on the Dreads to even the score. Ld8 of Space Wolves is prone to breaking at the most inopportune times.

I have only seen one true way of Dealing with them!

Idk about you guys but my friends TWC are all kitted with SS and all abuse the wound allocation rule. He runs 2 squads of 3 with a powerfist,meltabomb, and 2 lords with powerfist.

He plays my buddies list with 10 TH/SS termies with lysander all the time and his TWC seem to always come out on top. 5 attacks each and 6 attacks charging from the lord. I've seen them time and time again just roll thru armies.

The best way to get rid of them is to just keep tank shocking them with vehicles. If your locked in combat with them and other units just try hitting the other units to win combat hope they fail there LD. Making them run off the board is the "easiest" way.

I can definitely see how three units of three with a Wolf Lord each can be really annoying. I was initially asking about how to deal with 1 unit of them. I would assume that with three small squads of TWC shooting would still be a decent way of whittling them down. Vindicators, regular terminators, rapid fire bolters and perhaps some massed HB fire from razorbacks.

I am beginning to think massive firepower followed up by some assaults and tank shocking may be best. Luckily TWC have to come to you so movement should be minimal meaning heavy weapons should always be able to fire at them.

I am also beginning to realize I am focusing too much on defeating the TWC and neglecting the rest of the army, which is dangerous since the average wolf is WAY better than the average Vanilla Marine. That's one reason why I think Vindicators are a good idea because they can deal with everything and not just focus on one unit.

italia - Are you looking at a way to beat the said TWC using a balanced list, or just tailoring to beat them?
If you are looking at solutions within a balanced list, mass HBs is a bad, lousy way. Don't listen to wrong advice.

There only one tatical way of dealing with ThunderCav, run away........Good Luck,

I think part of your problem is believe the average Space Wolf to be better than your average Space Marine. This is wrong because the trade off of having Counter-Attack and Acute Senses instead of Combat Tactics and Combat Squads is definitely lop-sided.

Sure, Grey Hunters are better in combat thanks to having Close Combat Weapons as well as Bolt Pistols and Bolters, and a model with the Mark of the Wulfen and the Banner of Scything Talons but they can't leave combats where they're outmatched and beyond 24" they're simply not a threat. They're there to close with the enemy and to assault it. Despite their 'flexible' equipment, they're really made for assault, and don't deal with shooting as well as Tactical Marines. If you're going to use Tactical Marines like Grey Hunters, then they're going to suck by comparison. If you try to use Grey Hunters as Tactical Marines, they will likewise fail to perform.

Being able to split into Combat Squads allows Tactical Marines to more efficiently distribute both their own firepower and incoming firepower. Combat Tactics allows them to not only get out of trouble in close combat, but to avoid close combat entirely, to escape from cross-fires, to escape from pinning, and basically to enable them to keep shooting.

This is important when you consider how to deal with Thunderwolf Cavalry. They may be nasty in close combat, but they are one-trick ponies. All they can do is charge. The best response to such units is to deploy multiple small units via Combat Squads and to melt away whenever he contacts you so that you can shoot him at point blank range, trading Tactical Marines for Thunderwolves, or bubble-wrap Dreadnoughts, or what have you.

For example, while it's nice to have lots of guns, you want to make sure that the Thunderwolf cavalry are exposed to your guns. Deploy some Combat Squads into fire zones. If they charge your Combat Squads, then regardless of how the combat goes (unless they lose...) they'll be placing themselves in line of sight and range to as many enemy units as possible.

Davicus wrote:italia - Are you looking at a way to beat the said TWC using a balanced list, or just tailoring to beat them?
If you are looking at solutions within a balanced list, mass HBs is a bad, lousy way. Don't listen to wrong advice.

The thread started out as what units would best beat TWC in a Vanilla Marine list. I am not interested in building a list that can beat just TWC and nothing else.

Nurglich when I say Grey Hunters are better than Vanilla Marines I am talking about Close Combat. Assaults play such a huge role in 5th ed that a unit being better in HTH is a major contributing factor to their being better than another unit. Second I run Vulkan sometimes Lysander so Combat Tactics are always replaced by Chapter Tactics for me, but I understand your point. My point was that although I am looking at destroying/negating TWC with Vanilla Marines I don't want to focus on them so much that I forget to have units in the list that can deal with the other threats a SW army will bring to the table such as; GH, LF, Rhino/Razorback spam, melta, other mech.

Davicus wrote:italia - Are you looking at a way to beat the said TWC using a balanced list, or just tailoring to beat them?
If you are looking at solutions within a balanced list, mass HBs is a bad, lousy way. Don't listen to wrong advice.

Wait what?? All i said was the best way to take care of them is to keep tank-shocking them. No where did i say to use heavy bolters. All balanced list have vehicles.


And by the way i said 2 units not 3. Either way though keep tank-shocking them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
o and im sure combat squading tac squads and wasting all shots at TWC are a good idea, when bolters need a 5 to wound.

OverwatchCNC:

If you were talking about Grey Hunters being better at close combat than Tactical Marines, then you should say that, because shooting is more significant in 40k than close combat. Close combat is high risk, high reward, and kind of sexy, but shooting is what will win you the game.

And yes, of course there are other unit in the Space Wolf army: That's why I'm recommending delaying tactics with Tactical Marines instead of recommending you invest in x, y, or z unit and hoping you get lucky. Remember how I pointed out that Thunderwolves are a one-note unit? They can only play in close combat, and if they lose a Thunderwolf to shooting for every Tactical Marine you lose in close combat, you're winning. In the meantime, by remaining mobile and using guns, you can engage the rest of the Space Wolf army.

Don't fall into the trap of trying to trump a close combat unit. Slow it down, waste its time on bubble-wrap, and shoot it.

bait them into the open with a nice squishy target like an empty razorback. Its a good unit because it is too powerful to ignore, but cheap enough to be expendable.

The thunderwolf cavalry will waste a turn attacking that, then you hit them with your vindicators or what have you.