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Nurglitch wrote:You mean these rules:

The Rulebook, The Rules Section: Buildings, Moving Within Ruins, p.83 wrote:Only certain troops are capable of clambering to the upper levels of ruins. Accordingly, only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin - and only if the model can be physically placed there. Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin.

So I can see why you might think that this prohibits Beasts and Cavalry from moving to and on the upper levels of a ruin so long as you ignore the movement rules for Beasts and Cavalry, but since Beasts and Cavalry move like Infantry and Infantry can move to and on the upper levels of a ruin, so can Beasts and Cavalry.

Well....they can move as infantry all they want. However, the rule explicitly states what unit types are allowed to move at all;

only infantry, jump infantry, jetbikes, monstrous creatures, and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin

So it really doesn't matter how the unit/model moves, simply if it fits the unit allowances laid out in the ruins rule. Which beasts do not.



Now, if the rule stated "Only units that move as infantry, jump infantry, etc"...then I would agree.

Now if we were talking about anything else except movement, I would agree, but the rules are specifically covering movement within ruins. Cavalry and Beasts are Infantry for the purposes of moving within ruins, much like Infantry are Infantry for the purposes of moving within ruins.

Nurglitch wrote: Cavalry and Beasts are Infantry for the purposes of moving within ruins, much like Infantry are Infantry for the purposes of moving within ruins.

I'm sorry but I don't understand. Where does it state cavalry and beasts are infantry for the purposes of if they are allowed to move on upper levels in ruins?

I honestly ask as I'm confused. The rule does not refer to movement types, it refers to unit types "infantry, jump infantry, etc.."...then even goes on to further state

"Other units may only move on the ground level of the ruin."

Skorcha Meganobz. 8 of them with Ghazgkhull. They rip straight through Cavalry.

AgeOfEgos:

The rules for movement within ruins is about movement, and the rules for Cavalry and Beasts tell us that those units are Infantry for the purposes ofmovement. I would have thought the connection was clear enough.

tankthecwb:

A swing and a most palpable miss.

Nurglitch wrote:AgeOfEgos:

The rules for movement within ruins is about movement, and the rules for Cavalry and Beasts tell us that those units are Infantry for the purposes ofmovement. I would have thought the connection was clear enough.

tankthecwb:

A swing and a most palpable miss.

The rules for cavalry and beasts say that they move as infantry in assaults (I presume this is in regards to pile ins, Ic etc) but at no point do they become infantry. The rules in ruins does not state cavalry or beasts (or vechiles or bikes)as being able to move on upper floors therefore they can't. Why have a list of things that can assault on upper floors and exclude cavalry and beasts unless they are meant to be excluded?

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Pretty sure he means list 1, Dude....

Good catch! I don't bring the scouts in list 1 because I would rather have the command squad instead of the two scout squads. The reason I am taking the Storms over regular speeders is because they have the scout special rule so when I get first turn they deploy scout and kill a Rhino/Chimera and if I get turn two I can outflank two multimeltas. I just think in list 1 the scouts don't fit as well.

So it seems there is a consensus that Vindicators are good for combating TWC?

Well, a good tactic is one that doesn't rely on a disputable reading of the rules, and that works regardless of consensus, and while the Vindicator works in a straightforward way, I don't think you're going to get more than one shot before something takes out your Vindicator. Unless you go whole hog on Vindicators, I think you're better off just using your army in ablative layers so you can constantly spray the Thunderwolf Cavalry with bolters as you fall back in a leap-frog pattern.

Nurglitch wrote:AgeOfEgos:

The rules for movement within ruins is about movement, and the rules for Cavalry and Beasts tell us that those units are Infantry for the purposes ofmovement. I would have thought the connection was clear enough.

I think where we have the misunderstanding is what the rules for ruins dictate. The area in question does not dictate movement types, it is a specific list of what is not excluded from moving on the upper floors. For example, note that it lists Monstrous Creatures and Jump Infantry as allowed to move on other floors. They are made as an allowance whereas Beasts/Cavalry are not.

Can't you just destroy ruins?

Nurglitch wrote:Well, a good tactic is one that doesn't rely on a disputable reading of the rules.

Only you are disputing it (presumably because you don't like the answer). Lets take this to YMDC and see if we can thrash it out.

The Strange Dude:

Sure. I'm only mentioning it on this thread because too many tactics threads turn on the rules and it's important to know when an opponent or tournament organizer wants to play it differently.

@ Nurglitch

I completely agree I guess it's just two different veiws of the same set of facts. Anyway heres the thread for further disscussion.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/319336.page

tankthecwb wrote:Skorcha Meganobz. 8 of them with Ghazgkhull. They rip straight through Cavalry.

that isn't SM thou. OP asking about vanilla marines.

I'm not sure how to kill them, i haven't faced them yet. But i would think just firing at them as much as possible would be best, maybe a bait unit, something that can tie them up in close combat.

have you thought about inquisitor allies?

Sageheart wrote:have you thought about inquisitor allies?

Enlighten me as to how they would help against TWC, would you please?

i have no idea, haha, i dont play against TWC at all. but i was thinking that it would be a good idea to at least look into it. does that make sense?

i mean i play IG and what comes to mind is weaken resolve psykers with a callius (? i think thats the one whose attacks are LD based) assassin.

Sageheart wrote:i have no idea, haha, i dont play against TWC at all. but i was thinking that it would be a good idea to at least look into it. does that make sense?

Oh sure it does.

I was just wondering if you had some awesome tactic for it is all.

I dont think a squad of Sternguard in a rhino is going to put a big dent in the thunderpups. Suppose you hold back a full squad in a rhino out of harm's way then spring it when the TWC swoops in for the kill. A full volley of the rapid firing bolter rounds that wound on 2+ does this:

20 shots -> ~13 hit, roughly 4 unsaved wounds

Because most players run fully complex squads all you've done is taken one wound off each thunderpup. They'll probably have a thunderlord attached and he can soak a few wounds as well plus can take runic armor (2+).

The vindi is nice in that it can insta gib thunderpups but you need a good scatter and they'll probably have their trusty stormshields. So really a vindi might kill one on average.

The best way to kill them is lots and lots of focused fire.

I hate to keep bringing up Lysander.

Bolter Drill + 10 Sternguard + Drop Pod = A significant amount of wounds on some Thunderwolves wherever they may be. You'll kill a base, and then if they charge you you have S10 Thunderhammer goodness to ID them like it's nobody's business.

If your doing sternguard then libby with nullzone followed by rapid fired combi-plasma from sternguard squad = some burnt puppies.

A waste of Plasma if you're using Sternguard. Use Hellfire Rounds. A full 20 shots should do 3.61 expected wounds, or about two Thunderwolves. I like overwhelming force as much as the next guy, but you shouldn't get suckered into dedicating 3x the points and 3x the units to cause roughly two more wounds.

Monster Rain wrote:I hate to keep bringing up Lysander.

Bolter Drill + 10 Sternguard + Drop Pod = A significant amount of wounds on some Thunderwolves wherever they may be. You'll kill a base, and then if they charge you you have S10 Thunderhammer goodness to ID them like it's nobody's business.

Right on. I've used Lysander/Stern/Melta/Pod many times and they answer a lot of questions for Marines. Lysander is simply a rock.

Being an extensive TWC user here's some of the solid counters to them:

-Command Squad on bikes with plasma gun spam.

The bikes make sure they cant assault you, they also allow to get a good angle at them to deny them cover saves.

-Mechanized infantry: Lots and lots of rapidfire bolters.

Its time to ditch combat squadding and put them all in a rhino. Range 2-3 of them properly with your rhinos, move 12 disembark, unload all bolters at them with rapidfire.


-Heavy Bolter spam.

Dakka preds and Land Speeder Typhoons.

Yuber wrote:Being an extensive TWC user here's some of the solid counters to them:

-Command Squad on bikes with plasma gun spam.

The bikes make sure they cant assault you, they also allow to get a good angle at them to deny them cover saves.

-Mechanized infantry: Lots and lots of rapidfire bolters.

Its time to ditch combat squadding and put them all in a rhino. Range 2-3 of them properly with your rhinos, move 12 disembark, unload all bolters at them with rapidfire.


-Heavy Bolter spam.

Dakka preds and Land Speeder Typhoons.

Thanks for all the feed back. This has been very helpful for knowing what to run against TWC with my Salamanders and what to avoid when i run my TWC with my Wolves. I think I have settled on this so far. 2 vindicators and 3 Tactical squads. With 3 tactical squads rapid firing and two 210 templates I am thinking I can annihilate the TWC. The guys in my area who run TWC see them as nearly invincible so getting those 5 units into position shouldn't be a problem. Thanks again guys.

Off topic, I think beasts/cav can't go up levels in ruins but if the model is within 2in of a model on a floor above then they may attack per the rules in the brb. Since Canis, and most TWC models I have seen are pretty tall I bet they can reach bottom, second, and even third floor of some ruins with out having to go up levels. Although I would never base my going after a unit on arguing a rule I felt I would weigh in with my 2 cents considering it's my topic an all...

OverwatchCNC wrote:

Off topic, I think beasts/cav can't go up levels in ruins but if the model is within 2in of a model on a floor above then they may attack per the rules in the brb. Since Canis, and most TWC models I have seen are pretty tall I bet they can reach bottom, second, and even third floor of some ruins with out having to go up levels. Although I would never base my going after a unit on arguing a rule I felt I would weigh in with my 2 cents considering it's my topic an all...

The whole being allowed to fight one floor above is in regards to models that are part of a unit which is in assault with a unit on an upper floor, if you can't get one model into base to base then you can't assault. Seeing as cavalry and beasts can't go up floors they can't base to base you and can't assault.

Just play your normal TH/SS Termies. TWC hit on 4+ and wounds on 3+, not too many rending wounds should be left and the rest will be normal CC attacks which won't ignore your armour. Then you hit them on 4+ and wound them on 2+ ignoring their armour. You'll win in the end. If your opponent runs a TWC lord with the pack it will be a bit more difficult, but if you throw a heavyweight like Lysander against him you should be just fine. So: Lysander + TH/SS Termies in a Raider, drive by and kill them off.

'Nuff said .

@HB: They'll wound on 4+ and won't ignore the TWC PA. Not the most effective way to deal with them, MLs are ways better. Or some Demolishers.

Nurglitch wrote:MagicJuggler:

Actually the Heavy Bolters can then Combat Squad as two fire teams on the flanks of the Space Marine force. S5 ain't much, but it beats the AV10 of a Chimera's sides. Plus they're also effective against Imperial Guardsmen.

I LOL-ed at this
Is there anyone here who takes Heavy Bolters on Devastators?

Back in 4th ed it was pretty common.

Davicus wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:MagicJuggler:

Actually the Heavy Bolters can then Combat Squad as two fire teams on the flanks of the Space Marine force. S5 ain't much, but it beats the AV10 of a Chimera's sides. Plus they're also effective against Imperial Guardsmen.

I LOL-ed at this
Is there anyone here who takes Heavy Bolters on Devastators?

A HB has a ~3.8% of destroying AV 10. A missle launcher has a ~14.82% of destroying AV 10. I would use a ML for that role.

Destroying vehicles is good, but over-rated. Being able to Shake, Stun, or Damage vehicles is also good.

But speaking of destroying AV10, someone check these numbers:

3 Attacks, hitting on 3+ (4/6), penetrating on 6 (1/6), destroying on 5+ (2/6).

3*(4/6)*(1/6)*(2/6) = 0.11