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I believe this is the right forum (hopefully!) Recently, I requested Muju, the internationally-renowned artist (known for her 40k fanart,) to draw a Space Marine based on Buddhist aesthetics. I've been trying to apply East Asian art to Space Marines as a variation on a theme (as they are typically depicted in a Western-style,) just to bring more diversity to "the Hobby."

Why link Space Marines to Buddhism? My thoughts were, the Adeptus Astartes are warrior monks that worship a deity that transcended the mortal realm (and was the reincarnation of the souls of previous sages.) They already sound like Shaolin monks to me, except in the year 40,000 and grimdark. Thus, I'm not forcing a gimmick onto a Space Marine Chapter design, I just think it's quite a natural fit. Then Muju drew this awesomeness:



I love Muju's pencil style to begin with, but check out some of her details:

- an Iron Halo (or Psychic Hood) as a Buddhist Dharma Wheel
- Skull Servitors bearing scripture scrolls, floating like a moving Buddhist rosary
- the floating scarf similar to Buddhist temple guardian statues
- a different shoulder pad from pauldrons, bearing an image of the Emperor on his Golden Throne Lotus

I wish to create a Chapter around this design, keeping its East Asian aesthetics as the central theme. In particular, I seek your advice please on:

- Chapter color scheme
- Chapter name
- Which codex to use
- Existing samples you've seen
- Other awesome ideas you may have

At the moment, I'm considering using the more obscure successor Chapters (as not to contradict existing fluff):

Angels Vermillion: this Blood Angels successor can use their awesome codex, plus the word "Vermillion" has a relevant synonym, "China Red"

Marauders: a successor to White Scars, which I believe is the most East Asian of the Founding Chapters...and I can transcribe the name into Chinese as Mo Rou Da (魔蹂打,) which roughly means "trample and beat devils"

Thank you in advance for your thoughts. I am really open to all ideas (e.g. I named this character Arjuna for an anon's feedback in the initial drawthread.) Just a few IMPORTANT NOTES:

- Seriously, I welcome all ideas. If you want to make this a Space Wolf successor, I'd love to hear your reasoning
- Yes, I've looked at Mark Dewis's Samurai-styled Jade Warriors and thought they were cool
- And yes, I know the very 1st of Buddhism's 5 Precepts is to abstain from taking life. But I say, Xenos are not lives...they're a disease

How do you intend to do vehicles? Or do you plan to not use any?

Amaya wrote:How do you intend to do vehicles? Or do you plan to not use any?

2 points I've considered:

- I'll probably only field 200-point Kill Teams as I'm burdened with more ideas than I can paint in time
- vehicles for this Chapter would also be mobile shrines (kind of like the Sisters of Battle's Exorcist tank)

With those 2 points in mind, I felt:

- a Razorback decorated with the hallmarks of Buddhist temple (which I'll visit for more ideas)
- a Dreadnought designed as a grave or a shrine dedicated to a relic
- even a Drop Pod, simply because when opened, it looks like a lotus flower (a common throne/platform motif)

Also, even though something like the Drop Pod isn't practical for a Kill Team game, but I can always just use it as terrain (which I found I love making now.) Thus, no idea goes to waste. Please share your thoughts freely.

I also wish to keep my ideas to a minimum until I hear everyone's thoughts first. I want to remain really open rather than steer your discussion. I answer only out of respect to your thoughtful questions. Thanks in advance.

Well, if I was doing this, I would field a jump pack heavy Assault Marines army and avoid vehicles except for Dreadnaughts.

A bunch of dreds due to the idea of wise old master/teachers. I would say no tanks, but not realy assault marines either. I would go with the black templar idea of scouts and marines together. besides that I am unsure

Personally, I think you could just go with Ultramarines for the rules, unless there was something in particular that you really, really wanted to accomplish (loads of assault marines or something).

I could easily see a Chapter that focused on Ancestor worship, with a Homeworld that focused on "ancestor" worship. The people of the home world would view the Marines as Living Ancestors, with access to centuries of accumulated wisdom. Thus, the Marines could rule over the populace openly, more like Macragge and the Ultramar system than Fenris.

The marines themselves could view Dreadnoughts as a source of wisdom from the Ancients, as a marine interred in a dreadnought is kind of Bodhisattva, as he is an enlightened Warrior who has chosen to remain in the realm of the living, rather than passing on to the afterlife, in order to enlighten others. The Emperor himself would be the ultimate Bodhisattva, as he enshrined himself in the Golden Throne to deny death and bring enlightenment to his people.

Being warriors is no problem. First, they aren't really Buddhists. Second, they could regard life and death as illusions, and teach that true service to the Emperor is eternal. If one remains true to the Emperor, then he persists in life and in death.

They could also oppose Chaos as the ultimate in illusion, false belief, and erroneous action.

"Servant of the Golden Throne" would strike me as an appropriate epithet, instead of the "Master of the Watch, Commander of the Marches" titles. For a chapter name, I might think of something like the Eternal Warriors, or maybe just something dramatically appropriate, like the Thunder Lords or Masters of Heaven, or something like that.

Very cool idea and image.

The Black Templar rules seem appropriate. The oaths and vows could be the equivalent of meditation and whatnot. The Emperors Champion a nice rendition of the classic warrior monk. Scouts and normal marines do well to go together as teacher and pupil.

I agree with EF.

As far as background is concerned, though, I think White Scars would be a shoe-in for their Gene Seed.

Commander Endova wrote:
As far as background is concerned, though, I think White Scars would be a shoe-in for their Gene Seed.

No question. Most legions were split up according to their approach anyway. These fellows could be the more moderate ones perhaps?

I can just imagine them driving a 100m long reclining gold statue of the Emperor around the battlefield

Perhaps use some of the DA upgrade kits to give you some robed marines? And I'd agree that the Black Templars are probbaly the closest you are going to come rules/fluff wise in terms of warrior priests/monks.

Land Raiders may well be the ultimate vehicle/shrine combination you will be able to get. By rebuilding the engine area at the back you have a massive space to fit a shrine/mobile temple. Plus you have a lot of blank space over the roof to extend the temple..

Thanks for the suggestion on the Assault Marines and the Black Templars. I hadn't considered the latter in particular and will think on it.

Da Butcha wrote:Personally, I think you could just go with Ultramarines for the rules, unless there was something in particular that you really, really wanted to accomplish (loads of assault marines or something).

I could easily see a Chapter that focused on Ancestor worship, with a Homeworld that focused on "ancestor" worship. The people of the home world would view the Marines as Living Ancestors, with access to centuries of accumulated wisdom. Thus, the Marines could rule over the populace openly, more like Macragge and the Ultramar system than Fenris.

The marines themselves could view Dreadnoughts as a source of wisdom from the Ancients, as a marine interred in a dreadnought is kind of Bodhisattva, as he is an enlightened Warrior who has chosen to remain in the realm of the living, rather than passing on to the afterlife, in order to enlighten others. The Emperor himself would be the ultimate Bodhisattva, as he enshrined himself in the Golden Throne to deny death and bring enlightenment to his people.

I will follow your first piece of advice exactly as is...unless someone brings up a good fluff or design reason for a specific Chapter's codex, like Black Templars. But I'm still undecided.

I found your points fascinating. I see the line you're drawing, from regular humans to the Marines to the Dreadnought to the Emperor. If we kinda interpret reincarnation as a "keep practicing until you get it right" process to the "Nirvana" pinnacle of enlightenment, this is like the step-by-step process. I think that's awesome for various reasons.

That really helps explain why people have reverence for the Space Marines (as more than just "lol I like Marines, they fight Chaos and doesn't afraid of anything,") which always bugged me before. But to make a judgment call, I will treat the Astartes as living "vessels" of wisdom from centuries of meditation and tradition, rather than as "ancestors" (out of respect to the Abhuman Squats, where their ancestor worship was a key racial characteristic.)

The part I love most is how that concept is really emphasized by the Dreadnoughts. Not only did they "live" even longer, but they are also technically dead yet still remain. It's like they already passed the tests of life and graduated to Nirvana, but are staying behind to help mentor those that still live. The Buddhist figure Guanyin (or Kannon in Japanese) is popular for that very reason.

Fun Fact - there is a common Chinese phrase, "Metal Guanyin." That sounds like a Dreadnought right there. What does the phrase mean? It's the name of a tea...the leaves were initially found near a metal statue of Guanyin. Next time I sit down at a Chinese restaurant I'll think about this. In the West, you guys have basically the same thing...except you call it Darjeeling Tea.

Da Butcha wrote:Being warriors is no problem. First, they aren't really Buddhists. Second, they could regard life and death as illusions, and teach that true service to the Emperor is eternal. If one remains true to the Emperor, then he persists in life and in death.

Thanks for putting that point forward and standing up for the idea. I wish I had a bro like you when I was a kid to back me up. Let me share with you a funny short story.

So my girlfriend, she's a Buddhist, right? She's Asian, specifically she's Chinese. We speak to each other in Chinese (well, admittedly I'm Chinese as well, but saying the bit before makes me sound like I somehow got me a really exotic girlfriend) and I am trying to just involve her in the Hobby. It's not like I expect her to play, but I want to get her interest so she doesn't mind me spending time painting.

So I show her some of these ideas like we're all talking about, trying to make it appeal to her. "This has nothing to do with Buddhism," she said in Chinese. Then she gave me a look and switched immediately into English for emphasis, "This is the OP-PO-SITE." Lol, I epic failed to convince her.

As I was researching the idea of Buddhist warriors, like Shaolin monks, I found some interesting things. 1st, Japanese history is freaking loaded with Buddhist warriors, so much so that sometimes it looked like some thugs just beat up people and pretended to be Buddhist after. 2nd, and I was shocked by this, it looks like Buddha/Siddhartha Gautama himself was born into the kshatriya caste...a warrior caste. Food for thought.

Da Butcha wrote:They could also oppose Chaos as the ultimate in illusion, false belief, and erroneous action.

"Servant of the Golden Throne" would strike me as an appropriate epithet, instead of the "Master of the Watch, Commander of the Marches" titles. For a chapter name, I might think of something like the Eternal Warriors, or maybe just something dramatically appropriate, like the Thunder Lords or Masters of Heaven, or something like that.

This is very good. I like how you treat Chaos there, I think that's perfect. For the Chapter name, I actually like the title you wrote, like "Servants of the Golden Throne." There's so many dramatically named Chapters, to have something that humble is actually kind of eye-catching.

This post gave me a lot to ponder. Thanks, man. But to everyone else, I still look forward to your feedback please, especially on the color schemes, etc.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Quick follow-up, on the other points. Thanks all!

On the Black Templars, it was exactly the mentor/novice thing that interested me the most.

And on the Dark Angel kit, man, it's like you read my mind. Part of how this idea started was that I introduced a bro of mine to the hobby. The only models he likes are the Ravenwing models. He keeps saying how they are so "legendary." Everything has to be "legendary" with him, he's funny like that.

But I did NOT know about the Land Raider's inside space. That's great! I was just thinking of converting an Exorcist or a Razorback. I'll look into this.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Black Templar rules seem appropriate. The oaths and vows could be the equivalent of meditation and whatnot. The Emperors Champion a nice rendition of the classic warrior monk. Scouts and normal marines do well to go together as teacher and pupil.

Thats what I was thinking. I really think you could make a very interesting and fluffy army, do you know how you will convert them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Da Butcha also has some great ideas there too!

I would love to see some shrine LRs tehy would look very cool.

I really think BT would be great due to the master pupil idea that all the units would have. You could convert up the scouts so they look less like over armored guardsmen and more like younger trainees, or monks following their master in the hope of some day gaining his knowledge and wisdom. The vows would also work very well with the vow like rituals i'm sure your chapter would do

If you are interested, West Wind do quite a few Japanese models (and indeed heads (about 2/3 of the way down that page).

The Bushi heads in particular fit with the warrior monk look. I would imagine that the Space Wolves sprues will also have plenty of pieces that might interest you.

If you don't want to do much sculpture and can find them in bulk, Tau shoulder pads are fairly eastern in their look.

Another thing to consider is the actual Geneseeed organ, which, as you may know, is recovered (when possible) from one Space Marine who has fallen, and is later on implanted into an initiate who is to become a new Space Marine. A lot of chapters already sort of see potential in an initiate based on heroic deeds former owners of the geneseed have committed. This could be another area for you to expand into, having your Marines fully believe that the wisdom and courage of the souls who used to carry the geneseed can be channeled.


Here is my suggestion for a paint scheme:



Before I begin, I must mention that its not possible to put a lot of special details an the program I used to make the image, so a lengthy explanation will follow.

I think a key part of the "look" of these Marines should involves extensive Chinese caligraphy on some of the larger expanses of the armor, possibly with a character in place of traditional squad designation symbol, (such as the upwards arrow for tactical squads, a skull for command squads, and an iron cross for veteran squads, ect. I imagine something to the effect of "Balance" for tactical squads, "Fury" for assault squads and "Wisdom" for veteran squads could work.

The armor is primarily a dark red, as you mentioned something to the effect earlier. Something about "Red China," I believe. The wearer's left shoulder pad is yellow. I think it is an "enlightened" color, and breaks up all the dark red nicely. Ultimately, it will decide on what you decide to use as a chapter symbol. The Right shoulder pad is white, to make a nice background for calligraphy, as I touched on earlier. For the kneepads, one knee could have a character representing the name of the squad, since Space Marines typically name their squads instead simply numbering them. the other knee could either be left red, or have a character the same as the tactical one on shoulder pad, or I suppose a character representing a particular value the individual espouses, or, if such things can be done, the individuals name.

I was also thinking for veterans, helmets and/or legs could become white, providing further space for writing.

The trim of the left shoulder pad is black, representing the wearer's company colors, for easy identification. In many chapters, this marine would be recognized as a member of the 5th company, since the color is black.

I can't see the image here at work, but I love the idea of the geneseed containing the spirits of those who went before.

I also like the idea of lots of runes/symbols decorating the armour, perhaps detailing its past wearers and their exploits, protecting the wearer from harm, channeling extra strength to the wearer etc... I basically see a warrior covered head to foot in symbols (which will be a bitch to paint, but hey, it could look amazing for special characters ).

Here is something that i think would be too cool to pass Kommissar Waaaghrick

One of the most aggressive combat diety ( in asia ) that would fit right into your chapter.

Nezha


He flies on 2 Blazing wind wheel ( count as jump pack? )
Main weapon Blazing Tipped Spear ( power weapon )
Hoop of Heaven & Earth ( count as web of skulls )
Crimson Warp Sash ( Rosarius )

Special Ability: Metamorphosis ( specifically 3 heads , 6 arms , breath fire lol. I guess +3 Initiative , +3 attacks )

Which the form is no doubt derived from Hinduism's the Asuras which after metamorphosis it gains berserk i guess

Dude it looks like a blood raven.....
Different color scheme!

Asherian Command wrote:Dude it looks like a blood raven.....
Different color scheme!

I agree with Asherian here. The resemblance is uncanny (as in...dark red. ). How about a dark orange?

I think OP is sticking with accurate colors:


However , good thing they also wear hats so you can change it alittle so it doesnt look like blood ravens



OP , reading your description of the design is very interesting.
It encompass flavor of tibetan buddhist theme , mixed with taoist decorations with tibetan script

Chapter name: Mantra Chapter

Any marking should include the Om / Ohm / Aum symbol as it is the most powerful word in their incantations.
And it looks like this:


The symbol is also simplified ( its my bad drawing of nerza in power armor , and the Ohm symbol is in the wheels , also in the drawing by Muju * the first letter of every scroll on the skull )

Really appreciate the feedback. I'm lurking, but wanted to thank you for a few things in particular.

Sageheart wrote:I really think BT would be great due to the master pupil idea that all the units would have. You could convert up the scouts so they look less like over armored guardsmen and more like younger trainees, or monks following their master in the hope of some day gaining his knowledge and wisdom. The vows would also work very well with the vow like rituals i'm sure your chapter would do

I understand and appreciate the idea, but I'm still weighing this. It's very appealing for the reasons you described.

SilverMK2 wrote:If you are interested, West Wind do quite a few Japanese models (and indeed heads (about 2/3 of the way down that page).

The Bushi heads in particular fit with the warrior monk look. I would imagine that the Space Wolves sprues will also have plenty of pieces that might interest you.

If you don't want to do much sculpture and can find them in bulk, Tau shoulder pads are fairly eastern in their look.

THanks for looking into this! As it turns out, though, I'm leaning away from the samurai look. The bald heads of the regular Space Marines are actually very suitable, but I'm still thinking about it.

Commander Endova wrote:Another thing to consider is the actual Geneseeed organ, which, as you may know, is recovered (when possible) from one Space Marine who has fallen, and is later on implanted into an initiate who is to become a new Space Marine. A lot of chapters already sort of see potential in an initiate based on heroic deeds former owners of the geneseed have committed. This could be another area for you to expand into, having your Marines fully believe that the wisdom and courage of the souls who used to carry the geneseed can be channeled.

I think a key part of the "look" of these Marines should involves extensive Chinese caligraphy on some of the larger expanses of the armor, possibly with a character in place of traditional squad designation symbol, (such as the upwards arrow for tactical squads, a skull for command squads, and an iron cross for veteran squads, ect. I imagine something to the effect of "Balance" for tactical squads, "Fury" for assault squads and "Wisdom" for veteran squads could work.

The geneseed idea is interesting. Yeah, there's this notion of transmitting wisdom/power to those after you, the geneseed is just a more tangible version of that.

Based on what you suggested, you probably already know this, but in several dynasties the footsoldier uniform actually had a big word on the chest. Right before the modern period, during the Qing dynasty, their uniform has a big Chinese character for "turtle" on the chest, which IMHO looked pretty funny. The idea was that turtles represented solid defense and long life.

It's a good idea, but to be honest, I've tried painting characters on miniatures, with mixed results. The lesson was to keep it simple and consistent across models, or just to leave it out altogether.

SilverMK2 wrote:I also like the idea of lots of runes/symbols decorating the armour, perhaps detailing its past wearers and their exploits, protecting the wearer from harm, channeling extra strength to the wearer etc... I basically see a warrior covered head to foot in symbols (which will be a bitch to paint, but hey, it could look amazing for special characters ).

To be honest, there are runes in Buddhism in particular. Whereas the above writing is Chinese, the idea of Sanskrit symbols (which look completely mystical and foreign to us Chinese speakers) are like runes in fantasy. Example from pop culture - you scribble some of these runes onto a yellow piece of religious paper, stick it on a vampire, and he is paralyzed. It's either Buddhism or Taoism or some crossover of the two.

LunaHound wrote:Nezha

He flies on 2 Blazing wind wheel ( count as jump pack? )
Main weapon Blazing Tipped Spear ( power weapon )
Hoop of Heaven & Earth ( count as web of skulls )
Crimson Warp Sash ( Rosarius )

Special Ability: Metamorphosis ( specifically 3 heads , 6 arms , breath fire lol. I guess +3 Initiative , +3 attacks )

Which the form is no doubt derived from Hinduism's the Asuras which after metamorphosis it gains berserk i guess

This is awesome! I know the character from Journey to the West...which is basically Dragonball, except older. I never remembered the name, only the style.

But what I found really creative was the conversion into 40k. Especially Metamorphosis. That's wild. I've got to take another look at this character and those like him.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Dude it looks like a blood raven.....
Different color scheme!

I agree with Asherian here. The resemblance is uncanny (as in...dark red. ). How about a dark orange?

Guys, that's my fault. Commander Endova was only responding to what I mentioned earlier about using Angels Vermillion ("China Red") as that's a common colour in Chinese temples and other buildings.

And I actually have figures painted similar to that (as I like the color scheme, a darker red than Blood Angels,) but I will probably use them as Red Wolves. The paint was something experimental but quite fun, a Tamiya metallic spray. It gives it a darker red while having natural highlights from reflection.

---

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm going back to lurking and you might not see my response for a bit, but I'm reading all posts.

Some of the ideas are a little bit beyond my capabilities. Example - painting characters consistently on Marines. I can paint some characters on miniatures, but a lot of times I dare not as they come out too inconsistent.

Thanks again, gotta take a rest now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LunaHound wrote:I think OP is sticking with accurate colors:

Actually, this color scheme looks really good now. Worth a further look. I don't know about the hats in that next pic, though. BTW, really appreciate to all those that took the effort to post images.

Colored up Muju's sketch xD ( based on the color symbolisms ) and Commander Endova's earlier test scheme ( which is really fitting imho )



And i know its not in the drawing , but i think prayer beads are very suitable as well! ( in some movies the more powerful monks have giant ones they use to wack people ^^: )

LunaHound wrote:( in some movies the more powerful monks have giant ones they use to wack people ^^: )

I don't think you should be watching movies of monks whacking people with their balls

LunaHound wrote:Colored up Muju's sketch xD ( based on the color symbolisms ) and Commander Endova's earlier test scheme ( which is really fitting imho )



And i know its not in the drawing , but i think prayer beads are very suitable as well! ( in some movies the more powerful monks have giant ones they use to wack people ^^: )

Wow, that looks pretty awesome. Then again, this is the chapter master/captain right? How would the more basic fellows look?

SilverMK2 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:( in some movies the more powerful monks have giant ones they use to wack people ^^: )

I don't think you should be watching movies of monks whacking people with their balls

Bwahahaha!

SilverMK2 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:( in some movies the more powerful monks have giant ones they use to wack people ^^: )

I don't think you should be watching movies of monks whacking people with their balls

Sorry guys, I was busy praying for those that wouldn't turn away from violence. I was quite foreceful and couldn't hear you over the rattle of my prayer beads. What were you guys talking about?



After reading the most recent points, I'm appending and actually changing my positions slightly.

1st, prayer beads. Yes, I'm definitely adding those, if for no other reason than they are a very effective way to carry across the personality of the Chapter while also being very easy to do. The idea is was to use the normal box of Tactical Marines, use the left arm designed to hold the missile launcher steady as the prayer hand, and place the prayer beads on there. The marine's head is bowed down slightly as if in prayer. To juxtapose that, in his right hand is gripping a weapon. Similarly, he could have a Power Fist holding prayer beads, which makes him very much like the character shown.

2nd, wow, thanks for the time and effort to color that image, Luna Hound I've saved it. It's hard to deny the fit of that scheme now. The yellow on the talismans/scrolls is perfect. I like how you brought a red glow to the Sanskrit runes. There is a sense of power there.

3rd, I'm actually revising what I said about drawing characters slightly. I previously kinda moaned about the difficulty of writing Chinese characters consistently. The real meaning is that it's hard to write Chinese characters well on a miniature, but keep in mind that we read Chinese. We know a poorly written word when we see it. With Sanskrit runes, that's different...very few people here actually read that here. That means I have a lot more flexibility. I'm seriously considering the simplified Om as the Chapter symbol now. Thank you very much for pointing that out; you filled a huge, huge gap.

For now, I really mean to lurk as not to further steer the open discussion, but I had to reply in appreciation for your contributions.

You should have prayer wheels. I've always like that idea.

Bhuddism originated in India so Sanskrit is completely appropriate. You can use a modern Thai font to make decals and banners.

I love the idea of this chapter, i had played black templars and i must say they are a little tought to play, and while the idea of scout and marine in the same unit fits the idea, some of there other ideas might not, or they could, when you take damage you have to move D6 inches towards the nearest enemy, i like the idea of a basic marine chapter, with DA upgrades and such, and if you really have the time, and cash you could get some dire avenger helmates and cut them to at fringes to your vets, if you want to

i really like the idea of bald heads, and the colored sketch is awesome

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Wow, that looks pretty awesome. Then again, this is the chapter master/captain right? How would the more basic fellows look?

The yellow part is a type of ( shawl i guess ) not sure what it is in english but we call it Jia Sa

The higher lvl monks usually get to wear those ( so more yellow ) , normal monks = mostly red.

One good concept is leaving the right arm bear ( catachan or chaos marauder arm ) without shoulder pad either. makes really cool warrior monk look.

This looks like a cool idea for an army. Name wise I don't really like "angels", as it seems to reminiscent of the judeo-christian theme most of the Imperium has already. I do like "heaven", though.

If you haven't already seen Kenton Kilgore's Fighting Tigers, they're a pretty interesting chapter, though they're based on Hinduism and India rather than Buddhism and China.

http://www.fightingtigersofveda.com/Tigersintro.htm

The Thousand Blades of Heaven?