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So with Counter-Attack and Berserker Charge rule... And every other thing as default...

5 Blood Claw assault 5 MEQ
I4 vs. I4

5 Blood Claw: A(1+1+2)*5=20, WS3 vs. WS4=0.5, 20*0.5=10, S4 vs. T4=0.5, 10*0.5=5, vs. Sv3+=0.333, 5*0.333=1.667

5 MEQ: A1*5=5, WS4 vs. WS3=0.667, 5*0.667=3.333, S4 vs. T4=0.5, 3.333*0.5=1.667, vs. Sv3+=0.333, 1.667*0.333=0.5



5 MEQ assault 5 Blood Claw
I4 vs. I4

5 MEQ: A(1+1)*5=10, WS4 vs. WS3=0.667, 10*0.667=6.667, S4 vs. T4=0.5, 6.667*0.5=3.333, vs. Sv3+=0.333, 3.333*0.333=1.111

5 Blood Claw: Counter-Attack Rule=0.667, A(1+1+0.667)*5=13.333, WS3 vs. WS4=0.5, 13.333*0.5=6.667, S4 vs. T4=0.5, 6.667*0.5=3.333, vs. 3+=0.333, 3.333*0.333=1.111

Really? So next time when my MEQ opponent assaults me, I just say, "Come and get me"?

So you would prefer to take double the expected wounds?

Not sure this is a rules question.

It's as if counter-attack counters the attack in some way...

Shoot them.

Ordo Dakka wrote:It's as if counter-attack counters the attack in some way...

I just got to the gym and grumbling while doing a warmup walk and this made my day! This will join the legacy of Old Spice man in my sig.

Right. But it's still better to assault, unless I've misunderstood something.

And, fluff-wise, I'd expect blood claws to give MEQs a run for their money.

However, a word of caution with your stats. The math is fine, but in game terms, that doesn't suggest that you'll do equal damage in any round.

The counter-attack is all or nothing. It's a moot point, but multiplying numbers by probabilities is fine for lots of dice taking the roll. In game terms, however, it's less valid when it's one roll for the group. It would, of course, average out over a game or an army. (In the same way that, if taking a morale check, the unit either flees or stays. It doesn't "2/3 stay")

Grey Hunters counterassault better than Blood Claws.

No rules questions so, off to Tactics!

So, why compare an assault unit against a shooting unit?
Atleast test them against assault marines (another assault unit)

The results should still be decent, but they will do more damage.

Ordo Dakka wrote:It's as if counter-attack counters the attack in some way...

I lol'd so hard

Sorry about putting the post in the wrong place... Never again

nosferatu1001 wrote:So you would prefer to take double the expected wounds?

Um no I didn't mean that...
Just that Blood Claws is cheaper than MEQs... And yet Blood Claws prevail in both aspects of the Art of HtH...
Kind of fluff-effect, I assume.

Ordo Dakka wrote:It's as if counter-attack counters the attack in some way...

Rofl.

Magnalon wrote:Shoot them.

Great. So there comes the point that the Headstrong rule is not all that useless...

doctorludo wrote:But it's still better to assault, unless I've misunderstood something.

The counter-attack is all or nothing. It's a moot point, but multiplying numbers by probabilities is fine for lots of dice taking the roll. In game terms, however, it's less valid when it's one roll for the group. It would, of course, average out over a game or an army. (In the same way that, if taking a morale check, the unit either flees or stays. It doesn't "2/3 stay")

No you understand perfectly. Assault is definitely better, with Berserker Charge rule. But my point is, either way, a cheaper unit like Blood Claws could resolve a HtH battle with more expensive MEQs like this... So don't hestitate to assault Blood Claws other than waiting for them to charge in.

And I understand the differences between concept and reality. May emperor saves our rolls. lol

whitedragon wrote:Grey Hunters counterassault better than Blood Claws.

Definitely, with the same stats line and yet the counter-attack rule. But Blood Claws is EVEN cheaper, yay?

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Atleast test them against assault marines (another assault unit)

I take the point. But assault marines are more expensive than MEQs, so to speak. And Blood Claws are 25pts cheaper than them. Yeah, they will do more damage. But on what efficiency?

Ordo Dakka wrote:It's as if counter-attack counters the attack in some way...

I believe this is sig worthy material.

Also, keep in mind that Blood Claws lose when being charged by enemies who fire their pistols first.

Fetterkey wrote:Also, keep in mind that Blood Claws lose when being charged by enemies who fire their pistols first.

That's included in the "concept and reality" portion of discussion...

Fetterkey wrote:Also, keep in mind that Blood Claws lose when being charged by enemies who fire their pistols first.

Grots?

And Blood Claws get even better with a Wolf Priest added.

Most MEQs have bolt pistols these days, you know...

ryanstartalker wrote:

whitedragon wrote:Grey Hunters counterassault better than Blood Claws.

Definitely, with the same stats line and yet the counter-attack rule. But Blood Claws is EVEN cheaper, yay?

Grey Hunters are the same points cost as Blood Claws, and their statlines are better. Grey Hunters are WS and BS 4 to the Blood Claws WS and BS 3. Grey Hunters also get bolters along with their bolt pistols and close combat weapons. If you're going to stand around and get assaulted, Grey Hunters do it better. Even if you're going to use "Berzerk Charge", they still aren't as good as Grey Hunters because of the WS3. Any unit with WS4+, S4+, and I4+ will put the hurt on Blood Claws more than the Grey Hunters.

Fetterkey wrote:Most MEQs have bolt pistols these days, you know...

You didn't say MEQ you just said enemy.

whitedragon wrote:

ryanstartalker wrote:

whitedragon wrote:Grey Hunters counterassault better than Blood Claws.

Definitely, with the same stats line and yet the counter-attack rule. But Blood Claws is EVEN cheaper, yay?

Grey Hunters are the same points cost as Blood Claws, and their statlines are better. Grey Hunters are WS and BS 4 to the Blood Claws WS and BS 3. Grey Hunters also get bolters along with their bolt pistols and close combat weapons. If you're going to stand around and get assaulted, Grey Hunters do it better. Even if you're going to use "Berzerk Charge", they still aren't as good as Grey Hunters because of the WS3. Any unit with WS4+, S4+, and I4+ will put the hurt on Blood Claws more than the Grey Hunters.

Sorry my bad about the pts cost. Misreading of codex.

When I said "the same stats line" I mean the same stats line as MEQs. If Grey Hunters or any MEQs choose to shoot Rapid-fire bolters then they can't assault; The only advantage Grey Hunters get is if they choose to use the bolt pistol+CCweapon mode then they just A+1 better than MEQs, nothing more.

Yes if one is going to stand around to get assaulted then yeah WS4 IS better than WS3. But Berzerk Charge is just as good as Grey Hunters, with the A+2 instead of Grey Hunters' A+1 neutralizing the WS disadvantage.

And then, still that point: Any unit with WS4+, S4+, and I4+ is more expensive than Blood Claws, I assume...

Uhm...your whole premise is that it's better to be assaulted with Blood Claws then initiate the assault. I showed you that really, Grey Hunters do it better. Your point about the bolters not allowing you to assault is true, but since your premise is that you want to be assaulted, the Grey Hunters are a better choice anyway, since you can shoot bolters and then brace for impact.

Also, a WS4, S4, I4 unit is any other unit of space marines, which are also the same cost as your Blood Claws. Sure the Blood Claws put out a few more attacks then the Grey Hunters, but since it's only at I4, that means they will suffer more casualties against MEQ's because the enemy will be hitting them on 3's at the same initiative. Grey Hunters don't have this problem either.

No I mean just the way around. With Blood Claws as your opponent, it's better to initiate the attack than waiting around for them to assault you, like fire some bolters into their rank...

Grey Hunters are definitely better choice if you are going to stand around to get assaulted, with your reasoning. I agree with you!

I could be wrong, but I remember the common MEQs are 18 pts per model, as Blood Claws and Grey Hunters are both 15 pts per model...

Hmm... More attacks, and more casualties. Different perspectives then...

Are we remembering that War Howl and Insane Bravado don't confer Furious Charge and +D3 attacks during a Counter-Attack? 'Cause the FAQ clarifies that.

I assume we didn't take that into discussion as Ragnar is a IC... So if they don't confer such good bonuses during a counter-attack... Then what a pity...

Also, Space Marines are not 18 points a model.

Yup. Those integral veterans pop the price of Space Marine squads up a bit. Considering additional Space Marines in a Tactical Squad is 16pts, that means that Space Marine players pay a 10 point premium for their Sergeant. Including a free Heavy Bolter, Missile Launcher, Multi-Melta (cost = 1 Bolter), and the 5 point discount on the special weapons, it's more like -10 points.

All riggght! The sergeant is the he-who-cost-most then...

16pts per marine, with all the goods in the arsenal... Fair trade I should say.