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I didn't know which forum this would be better in, but considering it's more of a fluff question than anything else, I thought here was best.

Okay, so I had another army idea that appeals to me more than my World Eaters army. I have a good Salamanders force, and they're still the only power armoured army I really click with. Instead of expanding my army, I had the idea to use Forgeworld early power armour marks to make a parallel Salamanders force, a pre heresy Salamanders legion (Crusade armour on everyone, Iron armour on veterans and assault marines). Considering the cost, it would be a slow burn army while I also get Tyranids, which is good. Painting a bit of green armour instead of purple and bone organics every now and then.

The issue is, I want it to be a fluffy legion army. No Vulkan He'stan. Any vehicles would be using old mark conversion kits from Forgeworld as well. No weapons or equipment that didn't exist back then. So, my question - what should I be avoiding? I recall jump packs being very specialized back then, so I'd be using assault squads in Rhinos. I know plasma weapons were rarer, so I'd be only using plasma pistols on maybe my captain. But still, I don't have a whole lot of information on what the legions used.

No razorbacks!

These date back to M36.

Sadly, the Land Raider Redeemer is also out, as is the Crusader IIRC.

The army would probably actually be land raider- and rhino-heavy, seeing as these vehicles were always portrayed in the older editions as being relatively common. Vindicators would be ok, since the earliest designs for that one are about heresy-era.

As to plasma weapons, I've always gotten the sense that they used to be actually more common, since the Imperium isn't so good at keeping track of its weapons design modules.

I recommend masters of the forge with conversion beamers. These are supposed to be powerful pre-heresy weapons, so it makes sense that a pre-heresy army would field a few of them. Maybe reserve a rhino to be used purely as an armored firing platform for one of these? I like the idea that in a chapter like the salamanders with high levels of technical mastery, they would maintain a number of those.

Overall, though, I think the important thing to remember is that this is an era when individual leadership and heroism were seen as far more positive than in the wake of the heresy. To this end, I would design a number of squads around the concepts of individuals--i.e. an assault squad comprised of the personal honour guard of a powerful librarian, who uses the gate of infinity instead of jump packs/rhino, or a devastator squad lavishly equipped (and transported) by the powerful techmarine that fights with them. Any group of soldiers whose concept and equipment follow the theme of their leader is iconically pre-heresy.

Just some thoughts.

It might be something to look up the Salamanders in the old Index Astartes so you have some idea of their TO&E: Loken's IV company in the Luna Wolves had integral Terminators and so on. Remember also that the Codex Astartes had yet to be implemented, so they might use some non-standard units.

Model-wise, Maxmini and Chapterhouse might have appropriate retro-pieces for Jump Packs and whatnot.

So long as you avoid Primarch Mary-Sue and her Legion of fluff abortions, you should be fine.

I won't be doing anything with special characters. It's going to be purely visual, and just using basic vanilla Space Marines.

I like the idea of individualism, having heroic leaders for squads and such. Fits the idea I was going for, where I was going to buy them a squad at a time and convert models to get a lot of very individual looking Salamanders.

I wasn't going to use Razorbacks, or any of the more unique land raiders. I know they weren't around in the crusades. Going by the Forgeworld Mark IIB land raiders, I assume I'll be fine using the normal Rhino? The mark IIB land raider look pretty much like the standard raider, just with more primitive weapon mounts.

As for jump packs, I want to avoid using them, since I remember them being rare in the crusade. I like the idea of the librarian that leads an assault squad with Gate of Infinity instead.

The main issue I have is, while Forgeworld have old pattern plasma pistols, meltaguns, flamers and missile launchers, that's it. There's no plasma guns, plasma cannons, or any other heavy weapons.

Check out Warhammer 30k. The rules can be downloaded at Belloflostsouls.net.

I don't want to use special rules, fan written or special characters. It's going to be a vanilla Space Marine army, just using retro looking models. I want this to be a very legal army, I just want it to look unique.

What kind of heavy weapons should I be avoiding? If plasma weapons were more common then, plasma cannons should be in. What about melta weapons?

I think melta would be ok. I couldn't find anything stating otherwise.

The hard part is finding old pattern weapons. Like I mentioned, Forgeworld have a missile launcher, plasma pistol, flamer and meltagun. Finding multimeltas, plasma cannons and plasma guns to match them is going to be hard.

Multimelta you could just lop off one of the Barrels on a regular FW melta gun and glue it on the other one.

Iur_tae_mont wrote:Multimelta you could just lop off one of the Barrels on a regular FW melta gun and glue it on the other one.

... and put it where on the other meltagun? The entire gun is about as narrow as the barrel.

Do the Big Shoota thing and put it on the end of the other barrel. I dunno. >.>

Making long meltaguns isn't the solution I was looking for with multimeltas.

If nothing else, I'll just stick to plasma pistols, meltaguns, flamers and missile launchers from the Forgeworld kits. I'm not going to have a huge amount of infantry anyway, probably 2-3 tactical squads, and assault squad or two, and maybe, very maybe, a devastator squad. The 2 unit types in there with heavy weapon access, I prefer missile launchers on both of them.

About terminators, has terminator armour changed at all? I wouldn't think so, considering all the fluff around terminator armour being ancient and irreplaceable.

They didn't have a lot of plasma cannons, multimeltas or assault cannons.

-Loki- wrote:About terminators, has terminator armour changed at all? I wouldn't think so, considering all the fluff around terminator armour being ancient and irreplaceable.

yep. Heres the common image of a pre heresy termie...

Yer with pre-heresy the main differences are wide curving shoulder pads, a front face grill and the strapping

whatwhat wrote:

-Loki- wrote:About terminators, has terminator armour changed at all? I wouldn't think so, considering all the fluff around terminator armour being ancient and irreplaceable.

yep. Heres the common image of a pre heresy termie...

i think that's a custodian gaurd termie.....

The Terminator's unit marking say he's an Iron Hands Terminator. Remember what the Codex: Space Marines has to say about armour, it's a bit of a "My Father Axe" or "Ship of Theseus" kind of deal where they may be sacred and irreplaceable, but they sure get maintained.

When you come up with a name google it first, make sure no one has taken it.

Avoid the current godwyn pattern bolters and also the mk8 style torso armours with the raised collars at the front.
Avoid stormbolters as they probably only had twin-linked bolters back then.
Assault cannons didn't exist, the autocannon was still being used.

cadbren wrote:Avoid the current godwyn pattern bolters and also the mk8 style torso armours with the raised collars at the front.
Avoid stormbolters as they probably only had twin-linked bolters back then.
Assault cannons didn't exist, the autocannon was still being used.

Autocannon is completely different thing from Assault cannon.

I'm sure he understands that.

It doesn't change the fact, however, that Assault Cannons did not exist during the Legion era.

Terminators used Reaper Autocannons in that role.

another important modelling point is to remove the Crux Terminatus from each terminator as this is a post heresy item

If you want assault cannons you can use a Reaper Autocannon and have it "Counts as"


Plasma Weapons were way more common then.

TL-bolters, astetically, are the same as a Stormbolter. it was something that was lost in the codex creep.

Chaplains wouldn't be very fluffy outside of a Word Bearers or a DA army as the heavy religious aspect of the Chaplains hadn't spread yet.



Terminator armor would be more common. have all your HQs wearing TDA.

No TFCs or Whirlwinds.

Land Raider spam would be fluffy. LRCs MIGHT have existed as they were a STC that was discovered sometime later(IIRC)

And no aquilas (imperial eagles) anywhere. Lightning bolts are probably okay though.

Grey Templar wrote:
Chaplains wouldn't be very fluffy outside of a Word Bearers or a DA army as the heavy religious aspect of the Chaplains hadn't spread yet.

Technically, Chaplains also wouldn't be very fluffy in a DA army. They weren't religious leaders in the Dark Angels Legion. They were "Brother-Redemptors", paragons exemplifying the virtues of the Sons of the Lion.

They were warriors to be emulated, not pious individuals in charge of the spiritual health of the Legion.

No don't you guys remember the Chaplains came into being so that they could serve the emperor and watch over the legions.
another thing to avoid is making it in the fluff larger than 100,000 Space marines in one legion and that you might need to have some legendary heroes of the Imperium to recognize your Legion. And not only that but also ensure that you are not over the top.
also ensure when you are building your legion army that you make it brighter and make it better looking than the current Marines. (get lots of mk 1,2,3, and 4. mk 5 and 6 and 7 did not come out until after the Hersey.

Given that pre-heresy terminators did not have rounded shoulder pads with room for the crux, he should be okay as he will have to get new shoulders anyway.

necrongod wrote:

i think that's a custodian gaurd termie.....

No. That's not the Adeptus Custodes. That's a Pre-Heresy Terminator.

*cough* Iron Hand *cough*
This is an Adeptus Custode.