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I noticed in the (relatively) new space marine codex that it seems 5-man squads can no longer take special weapons. What is the purpose of taking 5-man squads now? Just to get a razorback to contribute to a mech space marine army? Or have Pedro lead your army of (scoring) sternguard vets and just take the 5-man squads to get your troop choices out of the way?

Why else would someone take minimum strength troop units that can't get extra weps?

Well...they're cheaper than 10 men squads!!

For a special weapon you can always give your vet. srg. a combi weapon.

and they're only 15 points more expensive than a 5 man scout squad, so for sitting on objectives and surviving they're not all that bad.

But I suppose if you have the points a 10 man squad gets you more options and more for your points. And you can always combat squad them!!

It would also allow you twice as many power fists as if you were to take 10 man squad...

Yeah i think this is one structural FAIL of the SM Codex - as you can get all the free options for a Tactical Squad for 10 less points than two five man squads together - not being able to get a heavy/special weapon. The idea is that you buy the full Tactical Squad, split them into combat squads, and then buy a Razorback for them - so you can get your 5 man group and Special Weapon/Sergeant within the Razorback and keep the five with Heavy Weapon seperate - although this isn't clear to some when they read the list. It is, essentially, "forcing" you to take full tactical squads if you choose to go this route. IMHO

As always, you have to make sure that the tradeoff is worth it in the context of your army.

Yeah there's always the tradeoff to personal taste but it's a little cheaper to get more Infantry special/heavy weapons if you buy the full Tactical Squad and then split it (you then don't have to take the 1 shot combi-weapons - which I find are always unreliable - such is my luck - and have a "permanent" special weapon use for one of your Marines) but like Dracos said - it's all personal choice. There can be many reasons to take a 5/6 man squad depending on how you wish to use them...

Lets examine two builds of squads.

1) 10 man tactical, flamer, ML, razorback with whatever special weapon (TL asscan being my favorite, but TL las or Las/tl plas is good too)

option 1 comes in at 245 points: 10 bodies, 1 vehicles, 1 special weapons, 1 normal heavy, 1 TL mobile heavy.

2) 5 man tactical combiweapon sgt, razorback with whatever special weapon

option 2 comes in at 175 points. 5 bodies, 1 vehicle, 1 combi weapon and 1 TL mobile heavy weapon.

However, with the remaining points you can stack up on more cost-effective ways of gettings heavy weapons. For instance, a HF/MM speeder added to the 5 man squad brings your total up to 245, and how you have gained 2 mobile heavy weapons, 1 combiweapon and 1 hull in trade for 5 bodies, 1 special and 1 normal heavy.

Since I run a predominantly mechanized force, the trade is worthwhile for me. As always, you have to make sure that the tradeoff is worth it in the context of your army.

If you run all mech several 5 man marine squads with Lascannon/twinlinked plasma razor backs makes sense and makes up for the loss of special weapons. They get a lascannon (heavy) and twin-linked plasma (special) but have 5 less marines than a full squad but their heavy can move and fire all for less points. Its just a trade off that makes sense to do if your playing a mech heavy list. In other lists it makes more sense to put 10 dudes in rhino.

Wow, I never thought about taking a razorback with a 10 man squad that's been broken up, but that's why I'm on this forum after all

Thanks for all the great feedback on this.

It's been a little while since I've played 40k and I'm impressed by how far it's come with trying to balance things; making context matter more when building an army.

Im sorry, I really cant jump on the 5-man Tacs bandwagon. It is the worse way to field Tacs IMO.

If you really want a Razorback spam, BA and SW do it best.

Why don't you make a good argument for why they are the worst way, and you now, actually add substance to the thread?

Not everyone here is talking about spam either.

SW do it better because they can take special and heavy weapons in those GH and LF squads not to mention the options avaliable to an attached WGBL.


As i always split my Tacs i like taking Razorbacks for my Tactical marines if i can afford it point wise.

i give my Tac marines rhinos and if i have 20-30 points leftover will upgrade to a Razorback.

I don't understand... why are you using other codices to argue a point about C:SM? If C:SM gave you the choice of taking 5 man options as they appear in the C:SW then certainly I would take it.

But that is an entirely useless way of discussion the options in the C:SM, since, you know, you have to take units from one codex.

What makes a 10man tactical squad in a razorback from C:SM superior to a 5 man tactical squad in a razorback? Look at my analysis above. Certainly it is situational depending on the list in question, but sometimes giving up 5 bodies is worth it to save points for a better weapons platform. Tactical marines are not good special/heavy weapon platforms to begin with, so saving points on bodies can net you more good weapons.

As for who does Razorback spam the best, I would agree it is not C:SM. But why does everything have to be about taking a unit and spamming it? You can build a competitive list without spamming one unit.

Dracos wrote:I don't understand... why are you using other codices to argue a point about C:SM? If C:SM gave you the choice of taking 5 man options as they appear in the C:SW then certainly I would take it.

But that is an entirely useless way of discussion the options in the C:SM, since, you know, you have to take units from one codex.

What makes a 10man tactical squad in a razorback from C:SM superior to a 5 man tactical squad in a razorback? Look at my analysis above. Certainly it is situational depending on the list in question, but sometimes giving up 5 bodies is worth it to save points for a better weapons platform. Tactical marines are not good special/heavy weapon platforms to begin with, so saving points on bodies can net you more good weapons.

As for who does Razorback spam the best, I would agree it is not C:SM. But why does everything have to be about taking a unit and spamming it? You can build a competitive list without spamming one unit.

Because, for excruciatingly obvious reasons, the only reason why you'd probably even be REMOTELY interested in taking 5 man tacs is because you want to spam Razorbacks. Which is a hideous and inefficient way to play C:SM.

Explaining why stuff is bad is one thing, but explaining on why stuff is obviously bad is another thing.

i don't look at 10 man tacs as a single squad.

i see them as 2 squads that are conditionally bought together to unlock upgrades for the other.

essentially i buy a 5 man squad with a combi-weapon, special weapon, transport with a Tl-heavy weapon, and a 5 man squad with a heavy weapon. this is how they finction in game and is how they should be treated during list building.


when you break them down into these chunks you see that you have a 5 man squad in a transport with 2 special weapons and a heavy weapon transport for 140 pts as opposed to your naked 5 man squad with a transport heavy weapon and combi-weapon for the same cost. by taking the extra 5 guys to sit in the back with a heavy weapon(that can be free) you double the effective firepower of that tactical squad(rather then relying on a hit or miss one use combi-weapon for all the killing power) and allow it to use that fire power multiple times.

you also gain a scoring unit



not that 5 man squads without anything else can't be effective(obviously it can )

whatever works for your local meta

@Grey templar: You are forgetting that you can group them into 10 man when the need arises =)

well, yeah, but i don't really know of a situation where it would be more advantageous to do that then keep them split up.

I have lots of direct experience playing a C:SM that does not spam razorbacks but still uses 5 man squads in them.

For instance, here is my list from 2 tournies: in the first I placed 4th/30 in BP and from another where I won best general going 4-0 and scoring 54/60 BP.

HQ Librarian storm shield, terminator armor, psychic hood, force weapon (nullzone + avenger) 140
Elite Assault Terminators x5 1x LC 4x TH/SS 200
Dedicated Transport Landraider Crusader multi melta, extra armor 275
Troops Tactical Marine x10 missile launcher, flamer 170
Dedicated Transport Rhino 35
Troops Tactical Marine x5 90
Dedicated Transport Razorback TL assault cannons 75
Troops Tactical Marine x5 90
Dedicated Transport Razorback TL assault cannons 75
Fast Attack Landspeeder Tornado Squadron (2) HF/MM 140
Fast Attack Landspeeder Typhoon 90
Heavy Predator ac/las 120

1500

As you can see, there is nothing really spammed in this list. Yet it has all kinds of forms of both redundancy and flexibility. The 5 man squads serve as front line support for the LRC with terminators. They rapid fire and tarpit when necessary, or just hang back and shoot away while grabbing objectives.

For 165 points, I have a mobile scoring unit that has very flexible targeting options. Its durability is increased because of the target saturation. In this list, I could field the units as 10 man instead, but that would involve giving up the predator and the typhoon. That would reduce the vehicle hull count by 2, the heavy weapons by essentially 6, the mobility drastically all in return for a bit more durability once the unit gets out of their ride.

Another option I tried and rejected was to take the 330 points in those two squads, and buy 10 man rhino squad and another predator. I lost out on mobility of the scoring units (3 vs 2 mobile scoring units). Not only that, but the heavy weapon teams from the tactical squads are dead weight and give a target for anti-infantry weapons when there were none before.

I do it when fighting tau. I group them up together into 10 man, and take the fight to them. But I take rhinos over razorbacks on my Tacs. That's what makes our play styles different.

Grey Templar wrote:well, yeah, but i don't really know of a situation where it would be more advantageous to do that then keep them split up.

Killpoint missions in competitive play.

I'll preface the rest of my post by saying that I've only used razorbacks to carry small 5 man units such as command squads or understrength sternguard, but only the TLHB variety, as I find the rest to cost too much points-wise for such a fragile vehicle. Used singly they are fire magnets so plan accordingly. Used in masse they play as a very small but firepower heavy mechanized list, as your razorback gives you no significant advantage over a rhino if you're moving more than 6" or are a Blood Angel. Probably the most interesting Razor Variant IMO is the Las/TLplas "Stronos Pattern" razorback , as it can fire it's las as it moves up and then at 12" it can stay stationary to fire 3 AP2 shots( or two on the move). It also takes two weapon destroyed results to detooth this variant. I was somewhat dissapointed that they didn't implement the MM razorback(as per FW) as an option in the 5th edition codex, they would have been brutal fielded in masse.

I take rhinos, but do occasionally combat squad my guys, the special weapon(and potential combi) can still fire from the rhino's hatch if it moved 6" and the heavy weapon can contribute due to being static, though obviously this is slightly less effective than just firing a razorback's weapon along with the other half of the squad's heavy weapon. With full squads you can also do debarkation rapidfires with an effective special weapon plus potentially a combi where with 5 naked guys it's just 5 bolters(and if you move 12", debark 2" and rapidfire 12" for a total threat range of 26" you waste the razorback's armament!).

Limiting yourself to combat squads is in my opinion a little silly since you're essentially giving away 3 potential KP for every troops choice, disastrous in a KP game, which is one reason I use rhinos in conjunction with full squads. This gives me the choice to combat squad if desired, though it plays a lot differently from a razorback list (IMO razorbacks sacrifice a bit of mobility for firepower).

Xeonicfront wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:well, yeah, but i don't really know of a situation where it would be more advantageous to do that then keep them split up.

Killpoint missions in competitive play.

I'll preface the rest of my post by saying that I've only used razorbacks to carry small 5 man units such as command squads or understrength sternguard, but only the TLHB variety, as I find the rest to cost too much points-wise for such a fragile vehicle. Used singly they are fire magnets so plan accordingly. Used in masse they play as a very small but firepower heavy mechanized list, as your razorback gives you no significant advantage over a rhino if you're moving more than 6" or are a Blood Angel. Probably the most interesting Razor Variant IMO is the Las/TLplas "Stronos Pattern" razorback , as it can fire it's las as it moves up and then at 12" it can stay stationary to fire 3 AP2 shots( or two on the move). It also takes two weapon destroyed results to detooth this variant. I was somewhat dissapointed that they didn't implement the MM razorback(as per FW) as an option in the 5th edition codex, they would have been brutal fielded in masse.

I take rhinos, but do occasionally combat squad my guys, the special weapon(and potential combi) can still fire from the rhino's hatch if it moved 6" and the heavy weapon can contribute due to being static, though obviously this is slightly less effective than just firing a razorback's weapon along with the other half of the squad's heavy weapon. With full squads you can also do debarkation rapidfires with an effective special weapon plus potentially a combi where with 5 naked guys it's just 5 bolters(and if you move 12", debark 2" and rapidfire 12" for a total threat range of 26" you waste the razorback's armament!).

Limiting yourself to combat squads is in my opinion a little silly since you're essentially giving away 3 potential KP for every troops choice, disastrous in a KP game, which is one reason I use rhinos in conjunction with full squads. This gives me the choice to combat squad if desired, though it plays a lot differently from a razorback list (IMO razorbacks sacrifice a bit of mobility for firepower).

Exactly my thoughts. The very same reason I dont get Razorbacks for my tacs.

Yuber wrote:
Explaining why stuff is bad is one thing, but explaining on why stuff is obviously bad is another thing.

Just for me, can you explain why taking a 5 man RB squad is such a horrible idea? Otherwise stop trolling all the threads.

Paying 165pts for a scoring LasPlas RB is not necessarily bad in my book.
495pts will get me 15 Bodies, 3 Rhino hulls, 3 Lascannons (that can move and shoot) and 3 TL PGs.

For 410pts one gets 20 tacticals, 2 Rhino hulls, 2MLs (that must reamin stationary to fire) and 2 Flamers.

Why one or the other is necessarily always super mega superior to the other is not evident to me so please explain. Simply put, they fill diffrent roles in a list and such one can not say that one build is necessarily better than the other.

Because you're gimping yourself. And I don't mean within the space marine codex. I mean in the grand scheme of things. Why?

Because BA and SW do it better. Ignoring fluff, you have no real logical reason to do 5 man with space marines when BA and SW do essentially the same thing better with no drawback.

The thought is..if you're gonna take 5 marines in a razor, why not just play another marine codex?
It's not like space wolves and BA aren't marines...

It may seem strange to think that way...but think of it from the perspective of a tournament player. Notably, army list design/construction factor into successful builds as much as the ability to play them.

As an example, people are not taking standard marine lists with Dark Angels to tournaments. Why? Because you can do the same list better with spacemarines/blood angels. It's the exact same logic.

Yes, SW do RazorSpam better, but no one here is talking about spaming RBs.

The comparison with DA is flawed since they do absolutly everything worse than vanilla marines (except for the Ven.Dread upgrade)
SMs have Sternguard, TH&SS termies, NullZone ect ect. SW does not.

BA have sternguard, thSS termies, etc. And furious charge and feel no pain.

No, I feel my logic is spot on here.

To be fair though, if you are taking a normal space marine list, I don't think it's bad at all to take 5 marines in a razor. I'm just trying to show the logic people use.

But how do I get the awesomeness of nullzone and cheap TH/SS terminators if I don't take C:SM? BA's vehicles are more expensive due to fast (both a good and a bad thing) while SW pays through the nose for terminators.

Therefore the reason I take C:SM for my list is to get the advantages. The tradeoff is that I can't put in a special weapon in the 5 man squad. I feel this trade off is justified. My experience tells me this works in the right list.

tedurur wrote:

Yuber wrote:
Explaining why stuff is bad is one thing, but explaining on why stuff is obviously bad is another thing.

Just for me, can you explain why taking a 5 man RB squad is such a horrible idea? Otherwise stop trolling all the threads.

Paying 165pts for a scoring LasPlas RB is not necessarily bad in my book.
495pts will get me 15 Bodies, 3 Rhino hulls, 3 Lascannons (that can move and shoot) and 3 TL PGs.

For 410pts one gets 20 tacticals, 2 Rhino hulls, 2MLs (that must reamin stationary to fire) and 2 Flamers.

Why one or the other is necessarily always super mega superior to the other is not evident to me so please explain. Simply put, they fill diffrent roles in a list and such one can not say that one build is necessarily better than the other.

You say we are not talking about Razor spam and yet here you are justifying their viability. If you think Im trolling shouldn't you stop responding to my replies? You're just making a total idiot out of yourself. Enjoy your 5-man tacs. Out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

scuddman wrote:Because you're gimping yourself. And I don't mean within the space marine codex. I mean in the grand scheme of things. Why?

Because BA and SW do it better. Ignoring fluff, you have no real logical reason to do 5 man with space marines when BA and SW do essentially the same thing better with no drawback.

The thought is..if you're gonna take 5 marines in a razor, why not just play another marine codex?
It's not like space wolves and BA aren't marines...

It may seem strange to think that way...but think of it from the perspective of a tournament player. Notably, army list design/construction factor into successful builds as much as the ability to play them.

As an example, people are not taking standard marine lists with Dark Angels to tournaments. Why? Because you can do the same list better with spacemarines/blood angels. It's the exact same logic.

This guy basically nails it. Is he a troll too?

Flexability. 5 man squads are usefully for manvuaverability. One turn they get in razorback speed away. Then my marines jump out fire their bolters. Run away. Rinise repeat pure ownage tactic.
See I have a Iron Wolves list which is basically 4 razorbacks 2 rhinos 1 land raider, 2 predators.

Asherian Command wrote:Flexability. 5 man squads are usefully for manvuaverability. One turn they get in razorback speed away. Then my marines jump out fire their bolters. Run away. Rinise repeat pure ownage tactic.
See I have a Iron Wolves list which is basically 4 razorbacks 2 rhinos 1 land raider, 2 predators.

Umm, please expound, I did not understand anything you said.

You cant just fire your bolters and "run away".

scuddman wrote:Because you're gimping yourself. And I don't mean within the space marine codex. I mean in the grand scheme of things. Why?

Because BA and SW do it better. Ignoring fluff, you have no real logical reason to do 5 man with space marines when BA and SW do essentially the same thing better with no drawback.

The thought is..if you're gonna take 5 marines in a razor, why not just play another marine codex?
It's not like space wolves and BA aren't marines...

It may seem strange to think that way...but think of it from the perspective of a tournament player. Notably, army list design/construction factor into successful builds as much as the ability to play them.

As an example, people are not taking standard marine lists with Dark Angels to tournaments. Why? Because you can do the same list better with spacemarines/blood angels. It's the exact same logic.

There is a drawback at least with space wolves. The cost reduction between regular marines and SWs (other than taking a singleton special weapon...) is that space wolves don't get a sarge. The difference in points costs between the two units is 15 points. Which is the cost of the sarge upgrade when you break the points down.

The "drawback" with blood angels isn't really major, at least with assault squads. I guess their drawback is only being armed with bolt pistols in a unit that is coming out a non open topped transport. So the turn they get out they have less firepower (other than their one weapon they can upgrade with) They only get a 10 point discount compared to regular marines. If you take tacticals (if you are playing BA, why?) the razorback actually costs more than regular marines.

So doing the same thing better with no drawbacks ACTUALLY has draw backs? LD lower with space wolves, and less bolter shots with Blood Angels. In exchance Space puppies get to buy a single special weapon, and the Blood angles can buy a single weapon. By buying the special weapons, you erode the points advantage that either army gets for their razorback? Besides, the points advantage was 10-15 points per unit, it isn't a huge amount considering the difference in what each unit can do.

I guess what I'm saying is that the "Space Wolves and Blood Angels do that better, why bother" internet logic is incredibly flawed. The units are different, with slight points variations. There is nothing really wrong with running small units with razors in Vanilla marines. In their own book, 5 man squads ARE cheaper than running multiple 10 man units. That frees up points for units that don't suck as bad as tactical squads. They are just a little more expensive than what the other two books do it for, and a singleton special weapon isn't that big a deal. (and you can mitigate this if you really want to with a sarge combi weapon if you feel the need).

Why do I run 5 man tactical squads in vanilla marines? Because Tactical marines no matter how you run them are incredibly underwhelming for their points. So I minimize how many I take while maximizing how many scoring units and firepower I get out of them for their bodies and points. Should I run space wolves or BA instead? No, I actually make use of combat tactics, like the C:SM units, and don't want to run the units that make those other two books really good.

Yuber wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Flexability. 5 man squads are usefully for manvuaverability. One turn they get in razorback speed away. Then my marines jump out fire their bolters. Run away. Rinise repeat pure ownage tactic.
See I have a Iron Wolves list which is basically 4 razorbacks 2 rhinos 1 land raider, 2 predators.

Umm, please expound, I did not understand anything you said.

You cant just fire your bolters and "run away".

Well for me this what I do
One squad moves in with razorback jumps out unloads on a assaulting squad. Owns them razorback which is empty. Before that I have my land raider tank shock the assault squad so that they are immovable and then i fire all my lovely template models which are in the 5 man squad, sternguard squads are a must. As they can take 2 heavy weapons or 2 assault weapons which is very useful.
And to tell what I'm talking about firing my bolters and running away. Is Fleet a Foot. Except I move backwards back into a building.
I usually use my Shrike list for this tactic and it works very well. And not to mention Space Marines can take one hell of a beating. And 5 man squads are less expensive than 10 men and if one 5 man dies it doesn't matter.

notabot187 wrote:

scuddman wrote:Because you're gimping yourself. And I don't mean within the space marine codex. I mean in the grand scheme of things. Why?

Because BA and SW do it better. Ignoring fluff, you have no real logical reason to do 5 man with space marines when BA and SW do essentially the same thing better with no drawback.

The thought is..if you're gonna take 5 marines in a razor, why not just play another marine codex?
It's not like space wolves and BA aren't marines...

It may seem strange to think that way...but think of it from the perspective of a tournament player. Notably, army list design/construction factor into successful builds as much as the ability to play them.

As an example, people are not taking standard marine lists with Dark Angels to tournaments. Why? Because you can do the same list better with spacemarines/blood angels. It's the exact same logic.

There is a drawback at least with space wolves. The cost reduction between regular marines and SWs (other than taking a singleton special weapon...) is that space wolves don't get a sarge. The difference in points costs between the two units is 15 points. Which is the cost of the sarge upgrade when you break the points down.

The "drawback" with blood angels isn't really major, at least with assault squads. I guess their drawback is only being armed with bolt pistols in a unit that is coming out a non open topped transport. So the turn they get out they have less firepower (other than their one weapon they can upgrade with) They only get a 10 point discount compared to regular marines. If you take tacticals (if you are playing BA, why?) the razorback actually costs more than regular marines.

So doing the same thing better with no drawbacks ACTUALLY has draw backs? LD lower with space wolves, and less bolter shots with Blood Angels. In exchance Space puppies get to buy a single special weapon, and the Blood angles can buy a single weapon. By buying the special weapons, you erode the points advantage that either army gets for their razorback? Besides, the points advantage was 10-15 points per unit, it isn't a huge amount considering the difference in what each unit can do.

I guess what I'm saying is that the "Space Wolves and Blood Angels do that better, why bother" internet logic is incredibly flawed. The units are different, with slight points variations. There is nothing really wrong with running small units with razors in Vanilla marines. In their own book, 5 man squads ARE cheaper than running multiple 10 man units. That frees up points for units that don't suck as bad as tactical squads. They are just a little more expensive than what the other two books do it for, and a singleton special weapon isn't that big a deal. (and you can mitigate this if you really want to with a sarge combi weapon if you feel the need).

Why do I run 5 man tactical squads in vanilla marines? Because Tactical marines no matter how you run them are incredibly underwhelming for their points. So I minimize how many I take while maximizing how many scoring units and firepower I get out of them for their bodies and points. Should I run space wolves or BA instead? No, I actually make use of combat tactics, like the C:SM units, and don't want to run the units that make those other two books really good.

The single special weapon you get at a discount is a big deal. You can mitigate the low LD by attaching wolfguard as sarge to your 5 man Grey hunters, with CHEAPER WEAPONS. Space wolves do it better, period. I'm sorry this is just the cold hard truth.