Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dracos wrote:I have lots of direct experience playing a C:SM that does not spam razorbacks but still uses 5 man squads in them.

For instance, here is my list from 2 tournies: in the first I placed 4th/30 in BP and from another where I won best general going 4-0 and scoring 54/60 BP.

HQ Librarian storm shield, terminator armor, psychic hood, force weapon (nullzone + avenger) 140
Elite Assault Terminators x5 1x LC 4x TH/SS 200
Dedicated Transport Landraider Crusader multi melta, extra armor 275
Troops Tactical Marine x10 missile launcher, flamer 170
Dedicated Transport Rhino 35
Troops Tactical Marine x5 90
Dedicated Transport Razorback TL assault cannons 75
Troops Tactical Marine x5 90
Dedicated Transport Razorback TL assault cannons 75
Fast Attack Landspeeder Tornado Squadron (2) HF/MM 140
Fast Attack Landspeeder Typhoon 90
Heavy Predator ac/las 120

1500

As you can see, there is nothing really spammed in this list. Yet it has all kinds of forms of both redundancy and flexibility. The 5 man squads serve as front line support for the LRC with terminators. They rapid fire and tarpit when necessary, or just hang back and shoot away while grabbing objectives.

For 165 points, I have a mobile scoring unit that has very flexible targeting options. Its durability is increased because of the target saturation. In this list, I could field the units as 10 man instead, but that would involve giving up the predator and the typhoon. That would reduce the vehicle hull count by 2, the heavy weapons by essentially 6, the mobility drastically all in return for a bit more durability once the unit gets out of their ride.

Another option I tried and rejected was to take the 330 points in those two squads, and buy 10 man rhino squad and another predator. I lost out on mobility of the scoring units (3 vs 2 mobile scoring units). Not only that, but the heavy weapon teams from the tactical squads are dead weight and give a target for anti-infantry weapons when there were none before.

This is the best rational I've seen for 5 man squads. Nice! I have always considered them to be junk, so thanks for providing me some new insight.


I do have some questions and concerns though... How does playing Razors affect your play tactics? Do you have to play more staticy with them? Seems like Rhinos give more options for movement. More unpredictability, tactical squad flexability. I have found combi-flamer, flamer, plasma cannon to work fairly well for me.

@ Warprat:

75% of my games involve me moving 12" first turn and using smoke launchers with those razorbacks and the LRC. Those take central positions and play an area denial game. The fire base of the typhoon, predator and backfield rhino all seek to neutralize the highest priority target like ravagers, IG skimmers etc.

The razorbacks offer up good targets because they can shoot at almost anything and have a good chance of doing some damage. I can't tell you have often people grimace as the TL assault cannon damages a high AV target. Because TH/SS terminators are so cheap. The central play of the Assault cannon razorback allows for good placement of the Librarian for his hood and nullzone. Often I will move up 12" first turn and then maneuver around to avoid immediate engagement versus a more CC oriented army. The Tornadoes play a goalkeeper type of roll: If you get too close to the central advance the two of them will make you pay. Even if I'm losing more units worth of models than the opponent it normally takes longer than the game to get rid of my central blockade AND take objectives. Games where I have lost were KP where I played to aggressively.

KP is kind of the weakness of my army, which I have been working on tactics wise. In KP, you have to play much more conservatively with your razorback squads because they are fragile. You need to avoid taking an alpha strike so sometimes that will mean reserving alot if going 2nd.

Yuber wrote: You can mitigate the low LD by attaching wolfguard as sarge to your 5 man Grey hunters, with CHEAPER WEAPONS. Space wolves do it better, period. I'm sorry this is just the cold hard truth.

However, this would also mitigate the advantage of being cheaper than Vanilla SM now wouldnt it?

tedurur wrote:

Yuber wrote: You can mitigate the low LD by attaching wolfguard as sarge to your 5 man Grey hunters, with CHEAPER WEAPONS. Space wolves do it better, period. I'm sorry this is just the cold hard truth.

However, this would also mitigate the advantage of being cheaper than Vanilla SM now wouldnt it?

Yes it would, but obviously, the wolf guard is not necessary.

For shooty mech marines the 5 man squads in razors add a lot of cheap heavy firepower without spending a bunch of points on tacs and help you saturate the board with cheap (for SM) scoring units. They work well with land speeder typhoons, dakka preads, devastators, rifle dreads, sternguard who take two missile launchers and can work ok with a split up 10 man squad too but i think your better off running rhinos if your taking the whole squad. They make a good ride for command squads too. Barring unjustifiable amounts of hatred for them that certain people have for them the 5 man + a razor unit was built into the codex on purpose for tacs, sterguard, command squads and devastators and can make sense in a list that is usually heavy mech and long range.

If your going for mid range units like terminators in land raiders, MM/HF speeders, drop MM/HF dreads, drop ironclads and vindicators the 10 man + rhino is synergies better.

Yuber wrote:The single special weapon you get at a discount is a big deal. You can mitigate the low LD by attaching wolfguard as sarge to your 5 man Grey hunters, with CHEAPER WEAPONS. Space wolves do it better, period. I'm sorry this is just the cold hard truth.

Did you even read my post? Each book does it DIFFERENT. The word "better" in this case, since they ARE NOT exactly the same, is completely subjective. I can give the sarge a combi. Considering how long 5 man squads last out of their transports + actually need their special weapon, a combi is a legitimate sub for being able to take a special weapon.

If you are talking complete razor spam, yes, space wolves can do that more effectively than other lists. Doesn't change the fact that BA and C:SM can bring a decent (if not completely extreme) number of razorbacks in their list to support the rest of their army. I personally bring just 3, and they last longer than you would think because of more pressing targets (like landspeeders and dreds and drop podded units)

Asherian Command wrote:

Yuber wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Flexability. 5 man squads are usefully for manvuaverability. One turn they get in razorback speed away. Then my marines jump out fire their bolters. Run away. Rinise repeat pure ownage tactic.
See I have a Iron Wolves list which is basically 4 razorbacks 2 rhinos 1 land raider, 2 predators.

Umm, please expound, I did not understand anything you said.

You cant just fire your bolters and "run away".

Well for me this what I do
One squad moves in with razorback jumps out unloads on a assaulting squad. Owns them razorback which is empty. Before that I have my land raider tank shock the assault squad so that they are immovable and then i fire all my lovely template models which are in the 5 man squad, sternguard squads are a must. As they can take 2 heavy weapons or 2 assault weapons which is very useful.
And to tell what I'm talking about firing my bolters and running away. Is Fleet a Foot. Except I move backwards back into a building.
I usually use my Shrike list for this tactic and it works very well. And not to mention Space Marines can take one hell of a beating. And 5 man squads are less expensive than 10 men and if one 5 man dies it doesn't matter.

Fleet of Foot does not allow you to fire in the shooting phase and then run too.

notabot187 wrote:

Yuber wrote:The single special weapon you get at a discount is a big deal. You can mitigate the low LD by attaching wolfguard as sarge to your 5 man Grey hunters, with CHEAPER WEAPONS. Space wolves do it better, period. I'm sorry this is just the cold hard truth.

Did you even read my post? Each book does it DIFFERENT. The word "better" in this case, since they ARE NOT exactly the same, is completely subjective. I can give the sarge a combi. Considering how long 5 man squads last out of their transports + actually need their special weapon, a combi is a legitimate sub for being able to take a special weapon.

If you are talking complete razor spam, yes, space wolves can do that more effectively than other lists. Doesn't change the fact that BA and C:SM can bring a decent (if not completely extreme) number of razorbacks in their list to support the rest of their army. I personally bring just 3, and they last longer than you would think because of more pressing targets (like landspeeders and dreds and drop podded units)

Did you even read my post? You said the special weapon isn't a big deal. I said it is.

the reason for the New format was an attempt to address the Cries of "Cheese!" from the practice of Min/Maxing Sm tac Squads. that was to say most people took minimum sized tac Squads With a vet Sgt who had a power Fist, A lascannon, and a plasma gun; you would often see 6 of these in a list. A variant added an Extra marine for body Count.

If you want to see how effective this can be take a similar 10 man squad to a game, then combat squad off 5 regular bolter marines. Of course the rest of the Core rules from 3rd(and some of fourth) Made this more effective than it is in 5th(especially the vehicle damage rules; as transports were pretty much rolling death-traps).

The sad part is the fact that they now let you do effectively the same thing while still having 5 more marines that can run out and grab up objectives while the tooled up boyz do all the fighting.

why would anyone do that? have a heavy wepon in a squad that wants to keep moving and/or assault?

With the current rules min sized squads can't take the same level of firepower for cheap, because they are forced to buy 5 additional bolter (which are generally underwhelming compared to the cost) guys compared to the two they had to last book. There is still a way to get nearly the same effect out of a min sized squad, but since it is a rather expensive razorback it does have issues (fragility).

Compare 165 points for las plas razorback to 225 that you pay for the same weapons with a rhino. Sure you get some extra bodies, but they are bolter marines, which isn't exactly the best thing in the world. The tax of having to buy 5 extra bodies is not a minor thing when you are buying multiple units of tacticals. By taking small squads with cheap firepower you can take even more units. 3 units of razors vs 3 units of rhinos is a saving of 180 points. Which is enough to buy 2 typhoons. Or you can take a whole slew of high impact low cost support units.

Kommissar Kel wrote:the reason for the New format was an attempt to address the Cries of "Cheese!" from the practice of Min/Maxing Sm tac Squads. that was to say most people took minimum sized tac Squads With a vet Sgt who had a power Fist, A lascannon, and a plasma gun; you would often see 6 of these in a list. A variant added an Extra marine for body Count.

If you want to see how effective this can be take a similar 10 man squad to a game, then combat squad off 5 regular bolter marines. Of course the rest of the Core rules from 3rd(and some of fourth) Made this more effective than it is in 5th(especially the vehicle damage rules; as transports were pretty much rolling death-traps).

The sad part is the fact that they now let you do effectively the same thing while still having 5 more marines that can run out and grab up objectives while the tooled up boyz do all the fighting.

The whole point of SM and their variants is that they're a elite army that is heavily supported by mech where as IG are a hoard army heavily supported by mech. You shouldn't really be spamming a hoard of power armor anyway just like IG really shouldn't be spamming hundreds of guardsmen. Mech is fluffy and awesome the old rules when transports were death traps and it made sense to just spam infantry were not in the spirit of the fluff anyway and you can tell GW agreed when they made 5th edition. More often than not when people cry cheese IMO they are comparing a 5th edition army to a 3rd or fourth. When you compare the armies made for 5th to each other they are pretty balanced and as all the codexes come out I think 5th will end up being the most balanced edition yet. (unless you want to run your army tooled up for 3rd/4th edition then enjoy loosing)

PA hordes are fun though! With 5th edition it's quite possible to spam a large quantity of PA bodies and still be relatively competitive(mech).

I kind of miss my 5 man las/plas squads(though now I'd invest in a few plasma cannon), they'd be the perfect counter list to a feel no pain blood angels FnP horde.
But put quite simply fielding a bunch of 5 man squads armed to the teeth was in no way fluffy.(though hardly cheese IMO) I enjoy my close to fluff current lists a lot more, personally.
Then again there's loads of points efficient cool stuff in the new codex(some old stuff that should have been balanced too) that can sort of make up for it.
Free heavy/special weapons are gravy IMO, though this(and...other factors) have the side effect of making devastators fairly useless. I do think that a 5 man tactical squad should have been able to take a special weapon though, so that a 5 man squad would actually be a viable choice. As is currently a 5 man squad loses out on the ability to field any special weapon aside from single shot(combi) ones, which severely limits their viability, afterall you can drastically increase their performance simply by buying 5 more men to form a "demi-devastator" squad.
IMO the unit entry should have omitted that bit about needing 10 men to field a special weapon, then it would have been better, afterall the majority of the other PA codices can at least field 1 special at 5 men.
Oh well, at least I have other choices to fill points other than 5 man tactical squads.

Personally I run 10-man squads that Combat Squad into 2 5-mans, then have the ML sit back and pound the enemy while the Flamer and sarge rush up to rip the enemy a new one. The Razorback comes in handy as it gives me a little more firepower and the whole thing comes to just over 200 points (or under 250 if I take a Lascannon, although I rarely do since the ML does the same job for cheaper). I get two scoring units for capping objectives and a cheap "devastator" squad that can sit in a corner and pepper the enemy. This comes in handy when I need to bring some heavier weapons to bear for cheap. However it depends on your playstyle. I always like to have some units sit in the back lines with heavy weapons.

cromwest wrote:The whole point of SM and their variants is that they're a elite army that is heavily supported by mech where as IG are a hoard army heavily supported by mech. You shouldn't really be spamming a hoard of power armor anyway just like IG really shouldn't be spamming hundreds of guardsmen. Mech is fluffy and awesome the old rules when transports were death traps and it made sense to just spam infantry were not in the spirit of the fluff anyway and you can tell GW agreed when they made 5th edition. More often than not when people cry cheese IMO they are comparing a 5th edition army to a 3rd or fourth. When you compare the armies made for 5th to each other they are pretty balanced and as all the codexes come out I think 5th will end up being the most balanced edition yet. (unless you want to run your army tooled up for 3rd/4th edition then enjoy loosing)

The bolded part almost gave me a heart attack; literally Hordes of Guardsmen is VERY fluffy. in fact there are several regiments that do not rely on much tank support at all(several of the catachan regiments, Elysians, Harkonni Warhawks, some Cadian regimewnts are actually almost all foot only). there are many times in which tanks are not a good idea on the battle field and as such those regiments that tend to be trained to fight without them are called in. Boggy/heavily forested conditions are one such time that Tanks are a hindrance.

As far as when the Cries of cheese were made: it was not recently, but actually in 3rd/4th editions. I know, I was playing Space marines and on the Forums back then(this one, B&C, and Black orc... I miss old Black Orc) Just to note i also at that time refused to Play by the old Min/Max method(Could not justify it by the Fluff, not every Squad had lost 50% casualties), and had an entire Chapter's worth of Marines(too bad we didn't have Apocalypse at the time).

While i am not terribly fond of having to have a full strength squad before having the option to take any Special or heavy Weapons it does beat the alternative of seeing hordes of Min strength Marines in just about every list with at least 1 Weapon type per squad(again as if every Squad had taken severe casualties).

min/maxing by the way is a term meaning to take the Maximum amount of option in a minimum strength squad, just so you could save the points from more marines to have more options total. An example would be the common 5 man Las/Plas Squad that cost all of 115 points, these quads would then sit in the backfield and Shoot incoming(generally foot-slogging, especially after transports were hit, which would force the occupants out) enemy Marines. Much of 3rd edition seemed to be played as Marine vs Marine engagements and invariably 1 or both marine armies would be set up in the las/Plas format(the other was often a Close-combat oriented force; Close combat being the king of 3rd edition based on the conventions that you had 2x as many turns in close combat that Shooting and you could consolidate into another Close combat).

Yuber wrote:

tedurur wrote:

Yuber wrote: You can mitigate the low LD by attaching wolfguard as sarge to your 5 man Grey hunters, with CHEAPER WEAPONS. Space wolves do it better, period. I'm sorry this is just the cold hard truth.

However, this would also negate [bold edited for clarity] the advantage of being cheaper than Vanilla SM now wouldnt it?

Yes it would, but obviously, the wolf guard is not necessary.

As hesitant as I am to add fuel to the fire, you haven't really refuted anything, Yuber. You concede tedurur's point, but your proposed solution is to forgo your prior advice. Were one to follow that (il-)logical train of reasoning, he would still face a discrepancy in LD when compared to C:SM tactical marines. This lends credence to the (moderate and reasonable, if you're curious about my leanings on the topic) stance that there are trade-offs that require consideration (in this context, price of weapons vs. LD value), not your intended "Space [Wolves] do it better," position.

It's obvious that you're convinced of your position, but flawed logic won't win you any converts.

Gunline SM is the best way to play SM. Problem is, like others stated, they're so damn expensive compared to their BA/SW compatriots.

Honestly if I played SM I'd just run a Vulkan list with 5 man SM squads packing a combi/normal flamer or combi/normal melta all shoved in drop pods and a TH/SS termi squad for punching crap. This way you get lots of twin-linked burny goodness, alpha strike, cheaper units, and (dare I say it) SM might actually beat things like SW and BA @_@

That being said, though, I think its been summed up quite well. Razorbacks en-masse aren't SM specialties; massed infantry with heavy weapons is better, splashed with some rhinos here and there to draw fire.

oadie wrote:

Yuber wrote:

tedurur wrote:

Yuber wrote: You can mitigate the low LD by attaching wolfguard as sarge to your 5 man Grey hunters, with CHEAPER WEAPONS. Space wolves do it better, period. I'm sorry this is just the cold hard truth.

However, this would also negate [bold edited for clarity] the advantage of being cheaper than Vanilla SM now wouldnt it?

Yes it would, but obviously, the wolf guard is not necessary.

As hesitant as I am to add fuel to the fire, you haven't really refuted anything, Yuber. You concede tedurur's point, but your proposed solution is to forgo your prior advice. Were one to follow that (il-)logical train of reasoning, he would still face a discrepancy in LD when compared to C:SM tactical marines. This lends credence to the (moderate and reasonable, if you're curious about my leanings on the topic) stance that there are trade-offs that require consideration (in this context, price of weapons vs. LD value), not your intended "Space [Wolves] do it better," position.

It's obvious that you're convinced of your position, but flawed logic won't win you any converts.

I'm working around the fact that having a discounted special weapon is always better than 1 more point of Ld. Which I'm quite sure, that 1 extra point of Ld isn't reason enough for SM to start spamming Razorbacks at least not as effective as BA and SW would be.

For the sake of argument:

5 Man Gre Hunters w/ Flamer + Razorback = 115 points
5 Man Grey Hunters w/ Flamer and Wolf Guard as Sgt + Razorback = 133 Points
5 Man Tacs + Razorback = 130 points.

As you can see, to achieve the so called coveted Ld of 9 the difference is only 3 points. Not exactly "more expensive" than the option SMs get.
To make things simple:

-SW can pay 3 more points to get an EXTRA BODY and a LD of 9 and free flamer.
-SM only get that LD 9.

Who does it better? Space Wolves.

Now, if these points I presented to you is not enough to change your mind, by all means, stick with your SM razorback spam.

Yuber wrote:

oadie wrote:

Yuber wrote:

tedurur wrote:

Yuber wrote: You can mitigate the low LD by attaching wolfguard as sarge to your 5 man Grey hunters, with CHEAPER WEAPONS. Space wolves do it better, period. I'm sorry this is just the cold hard truth.

However, this would also negate [bold edited for clarity] the advantage of being cheaper than Vanilla SM now wouldnt it?

Yes it would, but obviously, the wolf guard is not necessary.

As hesitant as I am to add fuel to the fire, you haven't really refuted anything, Yuber. You concede tedurur's point, but your proposed solution is to forgo your prior advice. Were one to follow that (il-)logical train of reasoning, he would still face a discrepancy in LD when compared to C:SM tactical marines. This lends credence to the (moderate and reasonable, if you're curious about my leanings on the topic) stance that there are trade-offs that require consideration (in this context, price of weapons vs. LD value), not your intended "Space [Wolves] do it better," position.

It's obvious that you're convinced of your position, but flawed logic won't win you any converts.

I'm working around the fact that having a discounted special weapon is always better than 1 more point of Ld. Which I'm quite sure, that 1 extra point of Ld isn't reason enough for SM to start spamming Razorbacks at least not as effective as BA and SW would be.

For the sake of argument:

5 Man Gre Hunters w/ Flamer + Razorback = 115 points
5 Man Grey Hunters w/ Flamer and Wolf Guard as Sgt + Razorback = 133 Points
5 Man Tacs + Razorback = 130 points.

As you can see, to achieve the so called coveted Ld of 9 the difference is only 3 points. Not exactly "more expensive" than the option SMs get.
To make things simple:

-SW can pay 3 more points to get an EXTRA BODY and a LD of 9 and free flamer.
-SM only get that LD 9.

Who does it better? Space Wolves.

Now, if these points I presented to you is not enough to change your mind, by all means, stick with your SM razorback spam.

Its been played to death that SW have a vast advantage over SM in terms of razorspam. BA have an even greater advantage being able to move 6" and shoot las/plas, or 12" and shoot las.

Yeah, he had the points right. For whatever reason he was just using a HB razorback though.

edit @ Zid: Heh you caught it on your edit it looks like, ninja edit!

Just because SW do spam better does not make the 5man razor squad useless in C:SM. Sorry, but all SW doing razorspam better proves is that SW does razorspam better.

As I said before, their are other good reasons to take 5 man razor squads in C:SM.

Dracos wrote:Yeah, he had the points right. For whatever reason he was just using a HB razorback though.

edit @ Zid: Heh you caught it on your edit it looks like, ninja edit!

Just because SW do spam better does not make the 5man razor squad useless in C:SM. Sorry, but all SW doing razorspam better proves is that SW does razorspam better.

As I said before, their are other good reasons to take 5 man razor squads in C:SM.

Won't you better off taking 10 man Tacs THEN take a razorback? Then again, I get your point.

I don't know, I kinda see it akin to Dark Angels. Sure there are things that are DIFFERENT...but not significantly so.

Regardless of razorspam or not, what serious SM army with razorbacks in it would be significantly better than SW or BA?

The list Dracos posted you can do with BA as well, minus a few differences, exept that the razors and preds are fast, and that the BA have a shot at furious charge and fearless.

I just kinda see it as the same argument I used to make with Dark Angels.

Bottom line is that BA are just better.
I think the only exception is taking CSM stuff using some of their special characters...but I hate special characters. Vulkan, Pedro, etc..meh.

Edit: Now that I'm looking at it, you can do draco's list with SW's too. Although honestly with SW I'd do it a little differently.

HQ Runepriest terminator armor 120
Elite Wolfguar Terminators x5 2x LC 3x TH/SS 285
Dedicated Transport Landraider Crusader multi melta, extra armor 275
Troops Grey Hunters Marine x10 meltagun, flamer 155
Dedicated Transport Rhino 35
Troops grey hunters x5, flamer 75
Dedicated Transport Razorback TL assault cannons 75
Troops grey hunters x5, flamer 75
Dedicated Transport Razorback TL assault cannons 75
Fast Attack Landspeeder Tornado Squadron (2) HF/MM 140
Fast Attack Landspeeder Typhoon 90
Heavy Predator ac/las 120

That list is 20pts over, the RP does not have a Storm Shield (nor NullZone) and you only have 3TH&SS termies.

So as have been pointed out by various other posters, SM is not always inferior to BA and SW. No one is arguing that SM does RazorSpam better than SW or BA but that wasnt the point of the thread, the point was whether or not 5 man Tacticals are viable or not for an SM army.

Yeah, good luck with those terminators. They will bounce off the harder targets you are going after without Nullzone. I'm not sure you realize how good Nullzone actually is. Nullzone gets better against the targets Assault terminators might actually have trouble against. OTOH, your SW terminators cost more than the points you saved on the libby and PA marines. As has been pointed out, your list is over on points. You also lost out on combat tactics, which to me is a huge loss for the 5 man units that support the central position.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, with BA, their units are more expensive, so you won't be able to fit all that in. Post a list up using BA codex, and you'll note once again that you don't get the protection of nullzone, or as much firepower in there.

You can't look at codex space marines in a vacuum. Sure having a missile launcher on a tac squad is nice but get more bang for your buck putting them on typhoons. Our tri-las cannon preds are over costed and if we only take 5 man squads we dont get a special either so the razor back combining the need for las cannons and plasma guns on the cheap is a no-brainer especially since we get awesome anti-transport/hoard in the form of rifleman dreads and dakka preds the whole thing works together nicely.

Other books can do other things more/less effectively because their FOC can do different things. It doesn't matter that SW/BA can do things that SM can't because your not looking at 5 man squads in the context of their books only the rest of SM. And with what we have to work with the 5 man squad + las/plas razor makes sense in ranged mech lists. SM can do several other armies well too like bike armies, dread heavy armies and dual-raider armies and several other more unorthodox builds but the thing that all those builds have in common is that they work in relation to the other things in codex: SM and the value of their individual units can't be compared to a book that has different rules for those same units plus the addition of units SM doesn't get at all.

I would tend to use 10 man squads of space marines with hevy weapons with support. Eg. Vinicator, It works for me.

cromwest, you can't put tac marines on a Typhoon; that's scouts only. 5 man teams simply should have been able to take special weapons, but that's not the case. Would have been handy in lower point games I think, still allowing me to squeeze in some armor.

M.

Umm infantryman you misread. Cromwest was saying that the heavy weapon is more efficiently purchased by getting typhoon landspeeders. Not only that, but typhoon landspeeders are not transports for anyone - you were thinking of the Landspeeder Storm (which has no MLs on it).

10 man is the way to go, far more versitile than a 5-man unit with no special or heavy weapons.

Dracos wrote:Umm infantryman you misread. Cromwest was saying that the heavy weapon is more efficiently purchased by getting typhoon landspeeders. Not only that, but typhoon landspeeders are not transports for anyone - you were thinking of the Landspeeder Storm (which has no MLs on it).

Oops, my bad

Then in light of your revelation, he makes a pretty good point.

M.