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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/18 09:32:00
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Major
Middle Earth
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In an attempt to give Bret players a chance in the watch tower scenario and add an old unit back into the game here is my attempt at foot knights.
Core
Foot Knight/Constable Pts/model: 12
M 4/4
WS 4/4
BS 3/3
S 3/3
T 3/3
W 1/1
I 4/4
A 1/2
Ld 8/8
Unit Size: 10+
Equipment: Hand weapon, Shield, Heavy Armour
Champion: One Knight must be upgraded to a Constable at no additional cost.
Options: May take a standard bearer at +15 pts
a musician at +5 pts
The enite unit may exchange their hand weapons for
Halberds at +1 pt/model
Morning Stars at +1 pt/model
Great Weapons at +3 pts/model
Bastard Swords at +4 pts/model
They may exchange the Knight's Vow for the Questing Vow at +4 pts/model or the Grail Vow at +6 pts/model
Any unit may carry a magic standard worth up to 25 pts.
Special Rules:
Bastard Swords- Elegant hand and a half swords used by Bretonnian nobility it combines the strength of a great sword with the speed of a broadsword. Knight with bastard sword may use them in one or two handed mode. In one handed mode they may be combined with a shield and they receive a parry save like a hand weapon. They provide +1 strength and strike in initiative order. If you are using them two handed they provide +2 strength and strike at -1 initiate.
The Knight's Vow, The Questing Vow, The Grail Vow
Thoughts? Over priced? Over powered?
EDIT: move this, posted in the wrong place
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/10/18 09:33:18
We're watching you... scum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/18 12:51:42
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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I am moving the thread to Proposed Rules.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/18 13:20:17
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Major
Middle Earth
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Kilkrazy wrote:I am moving the thread to Proposed Rules.
Thanks, accidentally posted in the wrong place
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We're watching you... scum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/29 04:16:27
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot
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I like it, it would give us a fighting chance. The rules for the bastard swords are awsome, but a unit like that would be terribly point heavey, maybe reduce them to 8 points. Or keep them at 12 and make them stubborn. Also make the blessing of the lady stackable with other wards like the mark of Tzeench does.
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Warhammer 40k: 3000 DOC, 4000 SM
Warhammer: 7000Empire, 10000 WE, 9000 Brets, 4000 DE |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/29 04:32:02
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Auspicious Aspiring Champion of Chaos
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It's a pretty good idea, I think. I might just change the bastard sword to 2 points for the choice of great weapon or hand weapon. Could maybe even trim the base cost by a point?
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“It was in lands of the Chi-An where she finally ran him to ground. There she kissed him deeply as he lay dying, and so stole from him his last, agonized breath.
On a delicate chain at her throat, she keeps it with her to this day.”
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/10/29 08:45:40
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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EmilCrane wrote:In an attempt to give Bret players a chance in the watch tower scenario and add an old unit back into the game here is my attempt at foot knights.
Core
Foot Knight/Constable Pts/model: 12
M 4/4
WS 4/4
BS 3/3
S 3/3
T 3/3
W 1/1
I 4/4
A 1/2
Ld 8/8
They may exchange the Knight's Vow for the Questing Vow at +4 pts/model or the Grail Vow at +6 pts/model
Any unit may carry a magic standard worth up to 25 pts.
Special Rules:
Bastard Swords- Elegant hand and a half swords used by Bretonnian nobility it combines the strength of a great sword with the speed of a broadsword. Knight with bastard sword may use them in one or two handed mode. In one handed mode they may be combined with a shield and they receive a parry save like a hand weapon. They provide +1 strength and strike in initiative order. If you are using them two handed they provide +2 strength and strike at -1 initiate.
The Knight's Vow, The Questing Vow, The Grail Vow
Ok, a few things.
First of all, drop the options for the questing and grail vow. I don't want to see grail or questing knights as a core options, even if on foot. Questing knights are S4, as are grail knights, so it doesn't match the mounted version.
Next, drop init to 3. Knights are init 3, knights on foot should be init 3.
Next, too many weapon options. I'd go with:
Hand Weapon and shield, free.
Trade handweapon for morning star, free (+1 strength in the 1st round for never being able to parry isn't worth paying for).
Bastard Sword: 2 pts per model, 1 handed it armor pierces, 2 handed it is a great weapon, choose in the 1st round of close combat, cannot change until that fight is over.
Cost: I'd cost them the same as a dwarf warrior with shield. Dwarves get +1 Toughness and leadership, Foot Knights get more move, initiative, Knight Vow, the Blessing, a magic banner, and pass their leadership onto nearby peasants. Seems about right for the cost.
These aren't fantastic, but keep in mind, the are CORE. They are good enough to get the job done, and remember that mounted knights can clear out a building, they just can't garrison it.
-Matt
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/03 17:47:42
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Fixture of Dakka
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I agree with Matt on the options pricing, and think that 7-8 points would be fine. They are basically marauders without Will of Chaos, so they line up pretty nicely. Might keep them at 8 points and give a minor bonus of some sort, or 7 without. Could go either way.
Good idea for a unit though; historically many knights fought on foot, especially English and Teutonic knights.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/03 20:20:33
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Nasty Nob on a Boar
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I also like. After getting started and having a few games in, this would fill a nice in-between for Men at Arms to Knights.
Bastard sword is a good idea.
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No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester
The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k - DOW III
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/03 22:22:51
Subject: Re:Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Nervous Accuser
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I'm myself a huge fan of bastard swords, but their rules might be slighty too good? They are, from what I have gathered up, a longsword that got a 2 hand grip and a longer blade so them being "better" then a great weapon when used 2-handed seems wroing. Maybe make them armour piercing when onehanded and gain an extra strength if used twohanded? or the other way around could also work. Not sure about all the vows...I am having a hard time seeing a questing knight or a grail knight leaving their horse behind. Let them stick with Knight's Vow and maybe allow the Constable to take a Virtue for like 15-25 points?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/03 23:14:37
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Lord of the Fleet
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Perhaps their lack of horses should make them only count for peasant vow's at half of the normal range? Its a little harder to see them unless they have giant banners or something when the fighting starts
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/04 04:37:29
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Nasty Nob on a Boar
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I don't know. I could add a different sword here and make it a good version.
And I agree with the bastard sword rule. Use one way or other / piercing with 1h and + str with 2.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/04 04:37:52
No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester
The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k - DOW III
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/07 11:22:29
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Major
Middle Earth
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I was probably over complicating things with the Bastard swords.
Also, the vows don't change the statlines, just the immune to psych etc...
Also, I4 is because when they fight on foot they have to rely on quick senses rather than the charging momentum.
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We're watching you... scum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/07 15:36:08
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot
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Full plate armor with choices for greatweapons, call them questing knights. Give them the same questing knight statline. 12 points apice, suborn. Use the bastard sword as +1s, and killing blow. They have no shields.
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Warhammer 40k: 3000 DOC, 4000 SM
Warhammer: 7000Empire, 10000 WE, 9000 Brets, 4000 DE |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/07 23:41:12
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Homicidal Veteran Blood Angel Assault Marine
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EmilCrane wrote:I was probably over complicating things with the Bastard swords.
Also, the vows don't change the statlines, just the immune to psych etc...
Also, I4 is because when they fight on foot they have to rely on quick senses rather than the charging momentum.
Wouldn't them charging on horses mean they'd hit first?
Being on foot without a lance afterall reduces your reach in combat.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/11/07 23:41:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/08 00:54:28
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Major
Middle Earth
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grayspark wrote:
Wouldn't them charging on horses mean they'd hit first?
Being on foot without a lance afterall reduces your reach in combat.
Exactly, which is why those knights who chose to fight on foot hone their reflexes more.
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We're watching you... scum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/08 04:04:15
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Dakka Veteran
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I think just from a fluff point of view, any upgraded infantry choice for brets needs to be a special choice. I think with that change, these are balanced rules as discussed.
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Manchu wrote:It's a lie, K_K, pure Imperial propaganda. Where's the Talon of Horus, huh? Plus everyone knows the Imperium planned and carried out the invasion of Cadia itself. Bin Abaddon was just a convenient scapegoat. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/08 04:09:18
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I dont know if i like the idea of my knights on foot the reason i play bretonnia is for the all calvary ability why not make them peasant elites or like the kings personal guard?
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Dont worry, Be happy
Play:
Flames of War |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/08 04:19:02
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Major
Middle Earth
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IHEARTLARGEBLASTTEMPLATES wrote:I dont know if i like the idea of my knights on foot the reason i play bretonnia is for the all calvary ability why not make them peasant elites or like the kings personal guard?
Oh I've already designed untis like that. Its just that knights are better fighters (if Orlando Bloom is to be believed) and sometimes its advantageous for them to fight on foot. Sieges, muddy days, city fights.
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We're watching you... scum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/08 05:28:09
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Long-Range Black Templar Land Speeder Pilot
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The problem is that if we get the watchtower senario we can NOT win. I have sent every type of unit into it and have always lost, 20 peasents just isnt strong enough to hold that building agianst anything short of goblins
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Warhammer 40k: 3000 DOC, 4000 SM
Warhammer: 7000Empire, 10000 WE, 9000 Brets, 4000 DE |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/08 21:00:47
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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not true get your knights to clear a building then move in the peasants then defend the building with a knight bus outside. just takes a lot of thought. and counter attacking.
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Dont worry, Be happy
Play:
Flames of War |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/08 21:14:49
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Major
Middle Earth
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I'd say if you're defending put bowmen in there and get your knights and M@A around it ASAP. If you go fast then you shouldn't have to ever defend it.
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We're watching you... scum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/09 17:49:32
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Killer Klaivex
Oceanside, CA
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Really, I don't see what the big deal is with watch tower.
If you start with the tower, put in men at arms with spears, (for the armor save). Deploy your general and BSB close enough so that they are Steadfast on leadership 10 (banner of discipline in the generals unit).
On your turn, march up a larger unit to replace the starting 20 (which you'll be able to swap on on turn 3).
Use your knights to sweep away opposition.
If you don't start with the tower, charge knights in to clear it, and march up infantry to hold it on turn 2 (you're opponents infantry will be out of range until the end of turn 2 at the earliest).
If the building is occupied by a unit too tough for your knights to clear, shell it with trebuchets and magic (lore of heavens), until you can clear it.
As long as you remember that units defending buildings are steadfast, and that you can take steadfast tests on your generals leadership, you'll be fine.
Not much in the game will kill 20 men at arms with only 10 infantry. All you need to do is hold for a single round...
-Matt
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/11/10 02:10:20
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Boom! Leman Russ Commander
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I don't play WhFB but i love the idea of this!
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"Reality is, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away"
-Philip K. Dick
Constant Lurker, Slowly getting back into modelling! Someday a P&M Blog link will lurk here! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/11 00:12:17
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Courageous Questing Knight
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I agree with Matt. - these would give you a viable version of the peasants duty [they'd move at the same speed, meaning they could potentially keep them in line.]
The Bastard sword is awesome - a 10-point infantry with either armour piercing or +2 Str? great for all-comers.
I think the points should stay at 12. they're great, and if we drop them to 8, suddenly a group of 50 knights is gonna scare the feth out of any oponent, especially when they're swingin' anywhere between 30 and 21 str 5 hits 'round the place. [and thats only 500 pts... ONLY.  ]
I also think they should cap out at 15 -25 models, and the minimum should be 5 - these guys aren't gonna pack any punch without numbers.
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DR:90S+++G++MB+I+Pw40k096D++A+/areWD360R+++T(P)DM+
3000 pt space marine 72% painted!
W/L/D 24/6/22
2500 pt Bretons 10% painted
W/L/D 1/0/0
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/337109.page lekkar diorama, aye? |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/13 03:15:30
Subject: Re:Bretonnian Foot Knights
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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Hang on, the bastard sword has an option of one or two handed... and the one handed option is absolutely superior to a halberd, and the two handed option is absolutely superior to a great weapon? And to get this incredible weapon you don't need sorcery or some kind of incredibly rare metal, you just need an elegant weapon. Why wouldn't everyone, everywhere in the Old World start making themselves bastard swords, given they're absolutely superior to both halberds and great weapons?
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/13 04:25:39
Subject: Re:Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Major
Middle Earth
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sebster wrote:Hang on, the bastard sword has an option of one or two handed... and the one handed option is absolutely superior to a halberd, and the two handed option is absolutely superior to a great weapon? And to get this incredible weapon you don't need sorcery or some kind of incredibly rare metal, you just need an elegant weapon. Why wouldn't everyone, everywhere in the Old World start making themselves bastard swords, given they're absolutely superior to both halberds and great weapons?
Hang on, empire plate is superior to normal heavy armour? And to get this incredible armour you don't need sorcery or warpstone? You just need a dwarf smith. Why wouldn't everyone, everywhere in the old world start hiring dwarf smiths, given that their armour is both superior to heavy armour and light armour?
Its a game, in games people get unique things. Same reason empire knights can't form a lance or brets have to make do with sup par heavy armour. Automatically Appended Next Post: In light of the recent and not so recent ideas here's the updated list.
Core
Foot Knight/Constable Pts/model: 12
M 4/4
WS 4/4
BS 3/3
S 3/3
T 3/3
W 1/1
I 3/3
A 1/2
Ld 8/8
Unit Size: 5-30
Equipment: Hand weapon, Shield, Heavy Armour
Champion: One Knight must be upgraded to a Constable at no additional cost.
Options: May take a standard bearer at +15 pts
a musician at +5 pts
The entire unit may exchange their hand weapons for
Halberds at +1 pt/model
Morning Stars at +1 pt/model
Great Weapons at +2 pts/model
Bastard Swords at +4 pts/model
Any unit may carry a magic standard worth up to 25 pts.
Special Rules:
Bastard Swords- Elegant hand and a half swords used by Bretonnian nobility it combines the strength of a great sword with the speed of a broadsword. Knight with bastard sword may use them in one or two handed mode. In one handed mode they may be combined with a shield and they receive a parry save like a hand weapon. The unit's attacks count as armour piercing. In two handed mode they provide +2 strength at they strike at -1 initiative.
The Knight's Vow
Changes: Initiative 3, bastard sword changed to armour piercing rather than +1 str. Removed the other vows.
What do y'all think?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/12/13 04:30:48
We're watching you... scum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/14 03:05:03
Subject: Re:Bretonnian Foot Knights
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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EmilCrane wrote:Hang on, empire plate is superior to normal heavy armour? And to get this incredible armour you don't need sorcery or warpstone? You just need a dwarf smith. Why wouldn't everyone, everywhere in the old world start hiring dwarf smiths, given that their armour is both superior to heavy armour and light armour?
Its a game, in games people get unique things. Same reason empire knights can't form a lance or brets have to make do with sup par heavy armour.
Umm, because you need to actually have skilled dwarven smiths, who are in short supply? There is an obvious reason these weapons are restricted.
On the other hand, here you have a weapon which can be used in two ways, each of which is absolutely superior to it's equivalents in hand weapons and great weapons, while giving no reason why everyone in the Old World wouldn't look at the weapon, say 'that thing is sweet' and start making them themselves. You need to make the performance of this weapon one-handed have some disadvantage compared to hand weapons, probably by dropping the parry, and in some way inferior to greater weapons when wielded to handed (maybe by being only +1 strength).
Or you need to invent some reason why unmounted knights in Bretonnia have the best weapons in the Old World.
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/14 04:48:28
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Major
Middle Earth
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It may not be the weapon as much as how they use it. Maybe bretonnian knights have developed a unique way to use otherwise mundane hand and a half swords.
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We're watching you... scum. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/14 05:27:18
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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EmilCrane wrote:It may not be the weapon as much as how they use it. Maybe bretonnian knights have developed a unique way to use otherwise mundane hand and a half swords.
Do they have some special abilities that allows them to do this and no-one else? Why are these guys skilled enough to be counted among the elite troops of the Old World, at 16 points a piece, that no-one else could replicate?
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“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2010/12/14 13:41:08
Subject: Bretonnian Foot Knights
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Major
Middle Earth
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sebster wrote:EmilCrane wrote:It may not be the weapon as much as how they use it. Maybe bretonnian knights have developed a unique way to use otherwise mundane hand and a half swords.
Do they have some special abilities that allows them to do this and no-one else? Why are these guys skilled enough to be counted among the elite troops of the Old World, at 16 points a piece, that no-one else could replicate?
Because its a game.
Why can only Imperial Guard officers issue orders?
Why does the Empire only get detachments?
Why do only the Blood Angels use the Storm Raven?
Why can't empire knights form the Lance?
Factions get special bonuses in games, even if logically other factions should be able to use unit x or ability a. It adds variety and balance.
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