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So, what the hell am I talking about?

I've noticed, lately, that a number of miniature companies springing up. Some of tese companies are producing excellent work, I mean really top notch stuff. While its true, that some of these companies seem to only want to provide miniatures that can be used as proxys for WHFB or WH40K (rarely) others really seem to have a genuine desire to produce miniatures that can be used with their own game (e.g. Infinity and MERCS).

What worries me though, is that when-ever these companies come out into the harsh light of day, and show their wares on here, all that seems to happen is that people straight away discuss how the miniatures could be used for WH40K etc, even going as far as running the miniatures down if they DON'T readily fit into GW games!!!

I find this attitude sad, and in some ways insulting. The worry for me, especially on an independant website like this, is that it seems that GW really has pwned the Wargaming industry, they have become the defacto benchmark for wargaming, even when its clear that their standard of sculpture, marketing, and the quality of their games leave a hell of a lot to be desired.

Why can't we judge an upcoming miniature company of gaming company on its own merits and not even bring GW into the equation?

Over to you!

This is a predominately GW board. And 40K is the most popular wargame in the world. So, don't get too offended ;-)

Well it is the benchmark!

No other company in miniature wargames has their level of recognition, they are global and space marines probably count for 99% of all miniatures bought ever (i jest)

For any game to be played you need players (dumb i know but true) if only one or two people have the minitures and rules for a game they'll get bored, if they know they can go to their local FLGS/GW/Tournament and use the mini's there, then more fun ensues!

If you do not compare every new kind of miniature to a Space Marine; GW bully-boys come over and beat you sensless with a sock-full of quarters.

when you're comparing a new product with a product leader, it's to be expected.

A new MMO comes out.. it gets compared to WOW

A new platform comes out.. it gets compared to God of War

A new miniature line comes out.. it gets compared to GW

they are the standard bearers and until someone can come over and show they have better skillz..well then everything will be compared to them like as not.

I dont know why you're bashing people or companies for comparing their stuff to GW products or explaining how they can be integrated

Without 40k or WFB those companies would probably not exist and would sell 0 miniatures. Why else would anyone buy models that are the same scale as 40k who look like stand in models with similar equipment?

Thats like getting mad at microsoft when a company writes a program that can be used on windows.. Without windows that program wouldnt even have existed

Sure some people buy miniatures just for the sake of showing to the world how geeky they are.. But most do not and need a purpose for their miniatures to exist, IE a game

If you grew up in the 90s and played any games at a gamestore (Card games or miniatures) youd realize how much it sucks to buy into a game and have it vanish a month later. The 90s was when EVERYONE had a miniature game or card game.. virtually none survived and wasted a lot of peoples time and money. Ill stick with the game that wont go away any time soon

I havent met a company to this date that can match GW's sculpt quality (when they try to make good models anyhow) especially when you factor in the customization of the boxsets. Sure some companies make decent models, but none (that i know of) throw in like 100+ random pieces you can mix and match. Also, there are a metric ton more fantasy model producers over Sci-fi. For the most part the companies that Ive seen who do sci-fi stuff exist only to serve the 40k playerbase, I doubt theyd consider it insulting theyre being compared to 40k!

GW has a pretty damn awesome marketing strategy fyi.. They spend 0$ on advertising budgets and collect profits just from word of mouth and licensing

Warmachine models are lousy as none of them fit with my Tyranid army.

Personal preference is what it is.

disel24 wrote:when you're comparing a new product with a product leader, it's to be expected.

When I go to a nice restaurant, my first thought is rarely, "Well, this would never work at McDonald's!"

they are the standard bearers and until someone can come over and show they have better skillz..well then everything will be compared to them like as not.

Actually, in my opinion there are loads of companies out there that produce better minis than Games Workshop- Studio McVey and Red Box Games two companies who produce consistently superior models. GW is not the market leader because they have the "skillz", they are the market leader because they have the volume. And this constant need to compare other companies' models to GW's creates a vicious cycle where good miniatures get criticized for not being able to fit in with GW's weaknesses.

Scale is a perfect example. From what I've heard, GW's models are out of proportion for chiefly two reasons: making models with giant hands and heads is easier, and because it sets their models apart from their competitors and makes it harder to fit in rival brand products into their games. So when a rival company rolls out a model with realistic proportions, they get stick for not being enough like GW. Even though what makes them different from GW is arguably what makes them better than GW.

JOHIRA wrote:When I go to a nice restaurant, my first thought is rarely, "Well, this would never work at McDonald's!"

Possibly because that is like comparing those buckets of army men you get for a couple of pounds to an actual proper model kit. They are not even in the same league and it is debatable whether it would even be the same sport

GW is not the market leader because they have the "skillz", they are the market leader because they have the volume. And this constant need to compare other companies' models to GW's creates a vicious cycle where good miniatures get criticized for not being able to fit in with GW's weaknesses.

Microsoft is not the market leader because they write good programs, they are the market leader because they managed to be the market for a long time. Pretty much everyone who has ever used a computer will have used Microsoft programs. Linux has programs which blow the socks off Microsoft stuff, but they are much smaller and less well supported by the global market. This means that whenever someone comes out with a new program, it is compared with whatever Microsoft has out, rather than the "best" program - simply because everyone knows Microsoft and is aware of the benchmark that they set.

Scale is a perfect example. From what I've heard, GW's models are out of proportion for chiefly two reasons: making models with giant hands and heads is easier, and because it sets their models apart from their competitors and makes it harder to fit in rival brand products into their games. So when a rival company rolls out a model with realistic proportions, they get stick for not being enough like GW. Even though what makes them different from GW is arguably what makes them better than GW.

Here I would agree; I would love to have models which are in better scale, but since I've invested a lot of time and money in GW, and GW is heavily supported through the world (so if I go somewhere with my models I can pretty much be sure I can get a game in) I'm going to continue to buy GW. Same as if I write something up in Word and save it to disc - if I want to print it out at home, work, on holiday, etc, it is pretty much certain that I can fire up Word wherever I am and open up my file. I've used better word processors than Word but because of the lack of support, I stick to using the benchmark program.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Warmachine models are lousy as none of them fit with my Tyranid army.

However Hordes make excellent proxies for your tyranids in the Legion of Everblight range...


/flutters fan, looks smug...

ITT: People who don't like GW pretend it is a sculptor, not a company

some wit is in here, too.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Warmachine models are lousy as none of them fit with my Tyranid army.

However Hordes make excellent proxies for your tyranids in the Legion of Everblight range...


/flutters fan, looks smug...

yeah, but they don't look like nids........................i'll get my coat.

SilverMK2 wrote:Possibly because that is like comparing those buckets of army men you get for a couple of pounds to an actual proper model kit. They are not even in the same league and it is debatable whether it would even be the same sport

I agree with everything that you said except for this- McDonald's is the perfect analogue to GW. McD's owes its success not to having the best product, but to having a world-wide system of franchises where everything on the menu is pretty much the same. You can go to a McDonald's in China and know you're getting the exact same hamburger-like-substance that you can get from a McDonald's in the USA. They also benefit from generally being fairly clean and family friendly. While GW has a few stellar releases (Dark Eldar for example) the bulk of their releases are a middling selection designed not to give us the best possible miniatures, but to create a consistent product line that can be played anywhere in the world.

A fair point, Johira. I may have let my dislike of McDonald's get the better of me

I disagree that GW are the standard bearers or that their existence is necessary for other companies to exist.

This is based on the fact that there are really good quality metal and plastic figures from a number of companies in various scales and genres, including SF and Fantasy.

Also, there was a wargames hobby before GW. It’s larger now, though much of that is clearly due to the impact of RPGs and growing prosperity and disposable income.

All that being said, the reasons why people tend to compare models to GW is because (A) This is primarily a GW site and (B) lots of users are mainly familiar with GW.

It is not surprising that many younger users’ introduction to tabletop wargaming is through GW, and people usually encounter alternatives after dipping their toes in the water.

The McDonalds metaphor is inappropriate IMO. Wargaming is a niche market. Hamburgers are not. Consequently you have room for two dominant market leaders in the hamburger market, McDonalds and Burger King because there are enough people in the world who will eat any old crap.

Delephont wrote:Why can't we judge an upcoming miniature company of gaming company on its own merits and not even bring GW into the equation?

Because most gaming companies have no plastics, no vehicles, no support for Necromunda-style campaigns and no player base within two thousand miles of here. Bringing GW into the equation is the only reason I don't write them off entirely.

Well, theres a lot of mixed opinion here. I must say, i'm surprised that a MOD would declare that this forum is "primarily a GW site".....I have always considered DakkaDakka to be a wargames hobby site with no fixed affiliations....I guess I was wrong there.

@ Kirasu

To be honest, its just that kind of blinkered opinion which lead to me posting this. I know theres no way I can convince you that there is life beyond the realm of WH40K, you're so entrenched in their "way of marketing" that I doubt you would even recognise a better game if it came along...for you, this (GW) is it.

I mean no offence by that, not really, because in many ways you are the lucky one! You will always have a place to play, people to play against and models to enjoy....however, the downside is, you will always be tied to a company that has proven in the past that its customers certainly don't come first, a company that does not even consider competition, and therefore makes progress at its own pace....read: slowly.

For everyone else, be careful. This is how creativity dies! A guy wakes up in the morning, has a great idea for a new game, reads these forums to get some "market feedback" and comes away thinking....to crap with it, whats the point? if it doesn't have pointy elf like creatures and Marines who scream, no one is going to buy it.....before long, you've got a fully dominated hobby, controlled by bean counters.....good luck with that.

Delephont wrote:Well, theres a lot of mixed opinion here. I must say, i'm surprised that a MOD would declare that this forum is "primarily a GW site".....I have always considered DakkaDakka to be a wargames hobby site with no fixed affiliations....I guess I was wrong there.

Dakka has no affiliation with GW that I'm aware of, but whether a site has an official affiliation with a particular company has no bearing on what the site primarily discusses. Seriously, take a look at the forum lists where there are seven forums for 40k, six for fantasy, and eight for other games, and GW games fit in most of those categories. Glance into some of those forums to see whether the individual GW forums or the 'lots of games' forums get more and more recent posts. This site is primarily about GW because that's what people talk about mostly, not because of an official affiliation.

To be honest, its just that kind of blinkered opinion which lead to me posting this. I know theres no way I can convince you that there is life beyond the realm of WH40K, you're so entrenched in their "way of marketing" that I doubt you would even recognise a better game if it came along...for you, this (GW) is it.

Ahh yes, the old 'if you like this thing I don't like, you're clearly blinkered and too foolish to understand the breadth of my experience'. Get over yourself buddy, I'm sure you're convinced that you're a great and masterful appreciator of True Art, but that kind of condescension is just obnoxious. And never changes people's minds, generally it makes people less receptive to your message.

For everyone else, be careful. This is how creativity dies! A guy wakes up in the morning, has a great idea for a new game, reads these forums to get some "market feedback" and comes away thinking....to crap with it, whats the point? if it doesn't have pointy elf like creatures and Marines who scream, no one is going to buy it.....before long, you've got a fully dominated hobby, controlled by bean counters.....good luck with that.

If a guy is dumb enough to go to a site that is mostly about GW games for market feedback on something different than a GW game, and is surprised that his feedback is 'I don't like it, it's not a GW game', I don't think he was ever smart enough to run a successful business in the first place. People who enjoy a certain hobby don't have some kind of obligation to support everyone who wants to make things for a similar but different hobby.

Of course it's primarily a GW site.

40K and WHFB are the most popular games on the site, that's obvious to the most cursory inspection.

It doesn't mean we don't cover other games.

To be honest, until after a year and a bit after me first getting into wargaming i didn't have much of an idea that any other wargames exsisted. GW are definetly the most dominant wargaming company.

The reason why, i think, we discuss these minatures how they could be used for a GW game system is that the models are often cheaper, or if we don't like the current GW models.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:Dakka has no affiliation with GW that I'm aware of, but whether a site has an official affiliation with a particular company has no bearing on what the site primarily discusses. Seriously, take a look at the forum lists where there are seven forums for 40k, six for fantasy, and eight for other games, and GW games fit in most of those categories. Glance into some of those forums to see whether the individual GW forums or the 'lots of games' forums get more and more recent posts. This site is primarily about GW because that's what people talk about mostly, not because of an official affiliation.

Fair point. I guess I should have posed my statement better. It wasn't that I was not aware of the amount of sub forums dedicated to GW products, it was more that I always considered that Dakka was simply giving people what they want. However, providing people with a canvas to discuss their interest is a bit different from stating that this is the primary function of the website. I guess you live and learn.

BearersOfSalvation wrote: Ahh yes, the old 'if you like this thing I don't like, you're clearly blinkered and too foolish to understand the breadth of my experience'. Get over yourself buddy, I'm sure you're convinced that you're a great and masterful appreciator of True Art, but that kind of condescension is just obnoxious. And never changes people's minds, generally it makes people less receptive to your message.

Your point would carry some weight, if I was trying to push a product. I'm not, I'm simply suggesting that i) consider other options, aimed primarily at the poster who seemed to point blank refuse there was life outside of GW! and ii) You can love GW and its products all you want, but if someone posts info about a new game or product made for another game, why not judge it on its own merits?

I really have no issue with people liking GW, but why must it be to the exclusion of everything else out there?

BearersOfSalvation wrote: If a guy is dumb enough to go to a site that is mostly about GW games for market feedback on something different than a GW game, and is surprised that his feedback is 'I don't like it, it's not a GW game', I don't think he was ever smart enough to run a successful business in the first place. People who enjoy a certain hobby don't have some kind of obligation to support everyone who wants to make things for a similar but different hobby.

Well, again, let me direct you to my first response to your post. However, armed with that information, I guess you again have a point.

However, even though your point may be valid, its still sad that, at least from the average Dakkites point of view, this galaxy is clearly not big enough for anything other than The Grim Dark!

Delephont wrote:Well, theres a lot of mixed opinion here. I must say, i'm surprised that a MOD would declare that this forum is "primarily a GW site".....I have always considered DakkaDakka to be a wargames hobby site with no fixed affiliations....I guess I was wrong there.

You can't be serious.

I think the WoW comparison is most appropriate. Both are fine games and have their share of critics but nevertheless they are one of the most popular sections of their genre. A lot of games have also existed before the 2 systems but they have gotten the wider audience (in relations to their respected market)

What I find funny is that I agree 40k and Fantasy are not the best game systems or games, but the ones I feel are are still GW.

40k and Fantasy are so big that even the best systems like Epic are overshadowed.

Like its been said before, its all about availability. You can play 40k anywhere. Also, the stability. I still have Chain Mail models.

Delephont wrote:Fair point. I guess I should have posed my statement better. It wasn't that I was not aware of the amount of sub forums dedicated to GW products, it was more that I always considered that Dakka was simply giving people what they want. However, providing people with a canvas to discuss their interest is a bit different from stating that this is the primary function of the website. I guess you live and learn.

Stating that a site where people mostly talk about X is a site mainly about X does not require pulitzer prize winning reporting, it's just pointing out a basic fact that someone can determine with a casual perusal of the site. Taking a simple statement of fact about what mostly is discussed on a site and trying to turn it into "affiliation" or trying to say that somehow the site is not giving people what they want (or whatever your complaint above is) doesn't really make a lot of sense.

However, even though your point may be valid, its still sad that, at least from the average Dakkites point of view, this galaxy is clearly not big enough for anything other than The Grim Dark!

No, it's sad that you're so narrow-minded and desperate to feel superior to those terrible GW players that have to post drek like this. You're not some sort of cool super-genius just for not liking the popular thing.

I agree with the OP's intent that we shouldn't judge model lines from non-GW related companies on how well or how badly their models integrate with 40K and Fantasy, but I also think it is naive to not see GW as the leader here, and that comparisons are going to be made.

I mean, given that this site does tend to cater towards lots of different hobbies (despite being predominantly a 40K board), how many 3rd party model makers and bitz sites are out there for non GW games? And I'm not talking about all the sites that make a bajillion different types of resin bases, but actual sites making kits. A lot of them are pseudo-40K models. If GW wasn't the 'standard bearer' for this type of hobby, they wouldn't be around. Demand drives the market, and the fact that these places exist shows that the demand is high for models designed to work with GW products (40K specifically).

So yeah, saying that you like or dislike an Infinity or Ex-Illis model because of how well or how badly it will fit into your 40K army is a type of false criticism - you cannot criticise something for not fulfilling a function it was never intended to fulfil (do you deride your toaster because it can't vacuum your house?) – but it is equally as false to deny that GW isn’t at the forefront of the war gaming business. However bad or good their accounts may look, they’re still the ones who have retail stores. You don’t get retail stores by being small.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:However Hordes make excellent proxies for your tyranids in the Legion of Everblight range...

Legion models are lousy because they don't fit with my Necrons.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:However Hordes make excellent proxies for your tyranids in the Legion of Everblight range...

Legion models are lousy because they don't fit with my Necrons.

Iirc there is that Green and Dark army made out of robot zombie pirates lead by a dragon

You mean Cryx?

They're lousy because they don't go with my Imperial Guard.