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I've recently gotten around to painting some space marine bikes that I acquired some time ago. I have enough bikes to form 3 bike squadrons complete w/ attack bikes. I was thinking of kitting 2 of the squads out w/ Pwr Fist, 2xMelta and Attack Bike w/ MM. The third squad I was going to kit out w/ Pwr Sword (Meltabombs), 2x Flamer and Heavy Bolter Attack bike for a primarily anti Infantry role. The anti-infantry squad would likely only be used in higher point games. I also have a bike captain that I am planning to outfit w/ relic blade and storm shield.

My main question is what other options should I field w/ these bikes.

I have the following at my disposal.

Lots of Pwr Armor
5x TH/SS Termies
5x LC Termies
Enough regualr termies to form a full 10 man squad (Asscan, 2x Cyclone, 1x Chainfist)
3x Landspeeder Typhoon w/ HB
1x Predator w/ Las Cannon Turret (no sponsons)
1x Land Raider w/ MM
1x Land Raider Crusader w/ MM
1x Dread w/ Asscan/Hvy Flamer
1x Dread w/ Plasma Cannon/Hvy Flamer
4 Rhino Chassis (3x TL Las Cannon Razorback Turrets, 2x Whirlwind Turrets)
2x Vindicator
1x Drop Pod
2x MM Attack Bikes (Plus 2 More MM bikes and an HB Bike mentioned in the top of the post)

I have other models not listed here but this represents most of what I have to work with. I would aim to play around the 1500 points level. Your ideas and thoughts would be appreciated.

i am in the process of building a bike army that looks like this:

captain-power weapon
2x full bike squad, pf, 2x melta, multi melta attack bike
2x2 typhoon w/ heavy bolter
3x dakka pred

left over filled in with another small bike squad. at 1500 points, it is small but should shoot fairly well.

I run a bike army at 2000 points and am doing really well running nothing but bikes. Its two captains, two decked out command squads and three regular squads of bikers. The dual command squads really make the list work because they can absorb ungodly amounts of firepower with storm shields + feel no pain and I can take a lot of wounds on the captains who have 2+ saves along with feel no pain. The reason why I dump so many points into two death stars is so I can spread them out as far as i can and reach max coherency and give the the rest of my army a 4+ save since they are pretty flimsy in comparison especially since I combat squad everyone.

On the regular squads the only upgrades I give out are two meltas and a mulit-melta on the attack bike and maybe a melta bomb on the sergeant if I need to fill points. I don't use flamers because army wide twinlinked bolters is I find anti-infantry enough and I don't use plasma because the command squad ignores armor in CC anyway so i break things like terminators in CC and make them rely on taking a bunch of invul saves plus melta instant kills most things in exchange for getting one less shot and has no chance to kill you so its a fair trade off. They don't need powerfists or anything crazy like that because the command squads can bust normal squads out of combat fast and act as a awesome counter assault unit. If I can't bust them out than I want to loose combat so I can purposely fail my leadership and run back 3d6 and auto rally on my turn which means I can move back two where I was rapid fire and get the assault bonus again. I keep them combat squaded so I have 6 scoring units that can take out 6 different tanks a turn with melta fire. When squads start to have one or two guys in them its good to start turbo bosting away and hiding to make late game objective grabs or to not give up kill points.

On the command squads I take three meltas, three lightning claws, four storm shields and a thunder hammer. The command squad is one of the only units in the dex that can take a storm shield without replacing anything. You can't upgrade the apothecary so if you take 6 wounds in a round that ignore armor he is dead but feel no pain is awesome while it lasts. On the captain I take artificer armor and a relic blade. The armor makes him a super fast terminator and the str 6 plus initiative 5 plus 4 attacks on the charge is a lethal combination. Two units like this will take silly amounts of fire to put down which is very important to keep your low number of troops alive. Use multi assault as much as possible to break your opponent as fast as you can this means that some times its not a good idea to fire your weapons because you need to be perfectly positioned for maximum effect and you don't want your opponent taking away models that will leave you stranded with no one to assault or wasting an assault on just one unit. Late game these guys are awesome for contesting enemy points that you cant dislodge and it pays to be very aggressive with them since they can't score anyway and only give up four kill points their is no reason to ever hold back unlike with your troops. When trying to make fill out the last few points the upgrades i find useful are a company standard, melta bombs, hellfire rounds for the captain or digital weapons for the captain. I don't upgrade to company champion because RAW he can't be upgraded and I dont like the war gear he comes with even though WS 5 is nice.

Vehicles mixed with bikes I find make the bikes weaker since they are so expensive to begin with you wont be able to fit much else into your list which means the enemies anti-tank will have nothing else but your hand full of vehicles to shoot at and you will loose them pretty fast. The all bike army wastes a lot of anti tank fire because on turn one you can move 24 inches and get an army wide 3+ cover save. This means you have your regular SM save against anything but a flamer which you normally get your save against anyway so all those lascannon and plasma shots are about as effective as bolters. For people who build their list for anti-mech this really throws people for a loop.

I also don't use Khan because you loose combat tactics. Combat tactics is CRUCIAL for a bike army because the regular bike squads suck at combat and need to be able to run away. Your high toughness means you will rarely take casualties in combat against regular troops but your low attacks mean you wont do much damage either. You have so few models on the board that you need to spend every turn you can to the fullest and cant afford to be stuck in combat for multiple turns. Out flanking is also kind of useless for bikes since they can move 24 inches so if you come in on your board edge you can be pretty much anywhere on the board you want to be in two turns anyway. And decked out with a relic blade and artificer armor a regular captain is just as scary as Khan anyway.

As far as actually playing Ill say bike armies must maximize the damage they can do FAST because they will loose any war of attrition due to low model count. Use your whole army to focus fire on 500 point sections of the opponents army. Refuse flank by starting out the game spread out and then on your turn moving all of your models to one side of the board denying your opponent shooting with half of his army if you position correctly. The 24 inch turbo boost will help you get into perfect position to take out all the biggest threats ASAP and help you absorb tons of fire because of your high toughness combined with a 3+ cover. You need to get rid of things that wound you on 2's or ignore your armor as soon as possible since every model lost on your side hurts bad. If you can get rid of the big threats on turn 2 and 3 the game will be a easy after that. If you get overwhelmed use your mobility and combat tactics to get you out of trouble. Purposely fail leadership test to prevent your self from being assaulted or to escape assault. My favorite tactic when im loosing to even the odds is to run my whole army away. Your opponent will be very tempted to chase after you. If he takes the bait he will often over extend him self trying to send units after you. Your next turn come back and hammer his weakest point hard with your whole army and you may find your no longer loosing. Also when placing objectives put them 18 inches apart in the open so you can have two scoring units turbo boost between them in later rounds always getting a 3+ cover and if your opponent tries to take the point they will be forced to do it in the open. If you are winning kill points early one and you have neutralized their long range shooting just run away for the rest of the game. When turbo boosting you don't have to get to get too close you have a 12 inch move and a 18 inch assault range so there is no reason to put your self in rapid fire/assault range of most of your enemies troops when playing bikes ALWAYS remember to use your huge movement to its maximum advantage.

I have only been playing bike marines for about a month now so this is all the advice I have. They are really fun but one turn of poor saves or a couple bad moves will get you tabled, but it is easier to make a late game comeback with bikes than any other army ive seen because of high toughness, good saves and awesome mobility the game isn't over till you loose all of your models. Playing with bikes will put your tactical thinking into over drive and I think will ultimately make you better at playing any army since it requires so much thought. No move forward WAAAAGH smash for you I hope you find the bike army to be as fun as I do.

I'd never do a bike army.

At 25 dollars a model (I think?) I could never afford that.

grayspark wrote:I'd never do a bike army.

At 25 dollars a model (I think?) I could never afford that.

The raven wing battle force will net you 7 bikes one that you can make an attack bike and a land speeder plus 3 giant sprues that are FILLED with bits to make all of your space marines look really cool even if you don't play dark angles. I filled off alot of the dark angels crap and still used the bits. You get this for 90 bucks and a lot of places sell it for 20% off like the war store. Ebay usually has alot of bikes for sale for cheap and you can use simple green to take off the paint. Also when I started building my army a lot of people at my FLGS were willing to sell me bikes. I found that SM bikes are something alot of SM players buy but then never actually use. Shop around because with such a low model count it can end up being a relatively cheap army.

I suggest Assault Terminators (5TH/SS+3LC) in an LRC. I think a few Drop Pods with Tactical squads or dreads can really compliment the speed of a bike army.

OverwatchCNC wrote:I suggest Assault Terminators (5TH/SS+3LC) in an LRC. I think a few Drop Pods with Tactical squads or dreads can really compliment the speed of a bike army.

Foot slogging dudes comming out of a pod are some of the slowest units in the game. You will have to baby sit them with your bikes which negates your mobility and lowers the amount of bikes you can take. 5 termies in a land raider will make up 1/4th of your army at 2000 points and I think the captain + command squad is a more than acceptable replacement especially since you have to take a captain anyway to make bikes scoring and are much faster than a land raider.

My dream biker list:

Vulkan
Captain: Bike, Power Sword

Sternguard x10: 10 Combi-Meltas, Drop Pod

Bike Squad x6: 2 Flamers, Attack Bike w/Heavy Bolter, Power Fist
Bike Squad x6: 2 Flamers, Power Fist
Bike Squad x6: 2 Flamers, Power Fist
Bike Squad x7: 2 Meltaguns, Attack Bike w/Multi-Melta, Power Fist

Attack Bikes x3: 3 Multi-Meltas
Attack Bikes x3: 3 Multi-Meltas
Attack Bikes x3: 3 Multi-Meltas

2000/2000

Vulkan drops down with the Sternies, who combat squad and annihilate two vehicles right of the bat. They'll also be able to hold their own in assault.

The rest of the army is flamey melta death. Turbo-boost turn one to get in melta range. Melta open stuff, and then flame and assault the insides.

grayspark wrote:I'd never do a bike army.

At 25 dollars a model (I think?) I could never afford that.

Yeah, I got most of my bikes used. It is way cheaper that way. I think I payed about $100 for most of the bikes and got a few land speeders and attack bikes as well. But you are right about it being a pain to buy the army new. Also painting assembled models is freaking hard.

AspireToGlory wrote:My dream biker list:

Vulkan
Captain: Bike, Power Sword

Sternguard x10: 10 Combi-Meltas, Drop Pod

Bike Squad x6: 2 Flamers, Attack Bike w/Heavy Bolter, Power Fist
Bike Squad x6: 2 Flamers, Power Fist
Bike Squad x6: 2 Flamers, Power Fist
Bike Squad x7: 2 Meltaguns, Attack Bike w/Multi-Melta, Power Fist

Attack Bikes x3: 3 Multi-Meltas
Attack Bikes x3: 3 Multi-Meltas
Attack Bikes x3: 3 Multi-Meltas

2000/2000

Vulkan drops down with the Sternies, who combat squad and annihilate two vehicles right of the bat. They'll also be able to hold their own in assault.

The rest of the army is flamey melta death. Turbo-boost turn one to get in melta range. Melta open stuff, and then flame and assault the insides.

My list so far has achieved a one turn vehicle destruction record of eight imperial guard tanks killed in one turn by meltaing a vendetta, 3 chimeras and a hydra and then in CC snagging the other two hydras in that squadron and on of their open topped artillery thingys. On average against mech armies I usually smoke 4 tanks turn two. Vulcan is a crutch and flamers are overkill on infantry when you have twin linked bolters. My list you can take multiple meltas or a multi melta in eight different units don't be afraid to go all out with bikes.

Other options?
I suggest at least 3 squadrons of Trooper Bikers, max or min is up to you.

The Fast Attack section should be filled out before you turn towards the Heavy Support IMO.

Attack Bikes and Land Speeders are both good and up to you which one and what type you use.

Command Squads are nifty right after.
They compete with the Hamminators in a raider.
A Libby is a decent secondary HQ.

IMO, bikers are more about how/when you deliver/apply the special weapons and abusing the mission, rather than brute force.

For extra fun consider a couple of rifleman dreads are a nice compliment to a bike list. It gives your opponent an annoying terget for his s8 weaponry, plus it lets you open transports so your bikes can rain bolts onto the survivors.

I play a 2000 pt bike army and everything cromwest has said is solid advice. I collected it using nothing but ravenwing battleforces so I have a lot of speeders I sometimes use in my list since I don't have enough models for a second command squad. They do well enough but being the only tanks makes them a target so you have to be careful. Bikes will die in CC so only assault when you have an unfair advantage because they won't survive a real fight. Twin-linked relentless bolters are gravy and people often over look how much damage they can really do. They're already covered for anti-infantry with their bolters so focus on anti-tanks wit their special weapons.

cromwest wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote:I suggest Assault Terminators (5TH/SS+3LC) in an LRC. I think a few Drop Pods with Tactical squads or dreads can really compliment the speed of a bike army.

Foot slogging dudes comming out of a pod are some of the slowest units in the game. You will have to baby sit them with your bikes which negates your mobility and lowers the amount of bikes you can take. 5 termies in a land raider will make up 1/4th of your army at 2000 points and I think the captain + command squad is a more than acceptable replacement especially since you have to take a captain anyway to make bikes scoring and are much faster than a land raider.

Why would your bikes have to babysit the Tactical Squads? The point of dropping the marines into the enemies deployment zone is to contest/capture an objective, get a KP or two, and provide distractions while the bikes go to work. If your opponent focus' on the Tacs then that is great for your bikes, if he ignores them to focus on the bikes then that means he is leaving full squads of Marines sitting in his deployment zone which is also a win for you. Command squads on bikes are complete glass hammers imo. I have played against/with them on many occasions and they simple die too easily. When it comes down to it they still only have a 3+ armor save and even with FNP will draw enough fire that they aren't going to do much. They are also way over priced for their potential output on the table top. The terminators in an LRC will do the job better and will only be slightly behind the bikes who will have already popped the necessary vehicles and gotten the "chaff" out of the way so the terminators can roll in and take on the "deathstar" units that Marine Bikers can't handle. YMMV on any/all of this but from my experience bike lists are well complimented by Drop Pods and Terminators in LRCs because it forces your opponent to make tough target priority based decisions.

10 man tac squads out side of a transport scare no one and will either be rapid fired or assaulted to death. This is a two turn distraction at most. Why is the bike command squad a glass hammer when the land raider with terminators is not? They both get the 3+ invul from strom shields. The bikes trade the 2+ regular save for T5 and feel no pain which is a valid trade and they exchange the land raider for bikes which cant be one shotted by suicide melta and can never be "de-meched" without being wiped out. The captain with artificer armor basically is a TH/SS terminator with an extra attack, initiative 5 and two less strength.

In a more mech oriented list that wants to have terminators in it I always recommend taking 2 land raiders with combat squaded TH/SS terminators since any balanced list can deal with one easily but will have to make some tough choices if two show up. They complement a mech list nicely. In a bike list i find the biker command squads to be much more appropriate and advise taking 2 for exactly the same reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
What death star units can TH/SS terminators handle that a decked out bike command squad cant? The TH/SS terminators cant shoot before they assault where as the biker command squad can dump melta shots into a MC before assaulting and hit with lightning claws and thunder hammers as well plus a relic blade. If they loose they can auto fail leadership fall back 3d6, auto rally rinse and repeat.

Im not going to knock TH/SS terminators because I think they are awesome and one of the best units in the entire codex but I think they fit better with more traditional SM lists and don't synergize as well as the dual command squads do with your bikes.

I played a Bike Army for the last 'Ard Boyz tournament, and came in 5th place out of 20 or so people. In hind sight, I could've fielded it differently, and next year I plan to bring a revised and better version.

Now, after play testing a few different lists, this is the one I've come down with for 2500 points.

HQ:
Captain - Bike, Power Sword 150 Points
Vulken He'stan 190 Points
Command Squad - Bikes, Plasmaguns x 4 265 Points

Troops:
Bike Squad - Attack Bike w/ MM, 2 Meltaguns, Sgt. w/ Combi-Melta 195 Points
Bike Squad - Attack Bike w/ MM, 2 Meltaguns, Sgt. w/ Combi-Melta 195 Points
Bike Squad - Attack Bike w/ MM, 2 Flamers, Sgt. w/ Combi-Flamer 185 Points
Bike Squad - Attack Bike w/ MM, 2 Flamers, Sgt. w/ Combi-Flamer 185 Points

Fast:
Land Speeder - MM x 2 80 Points
Land Speeder - MM x 2 80 Points
Land Speeder - MM x 2 80 Points

Elites:
Terminator Assault Squad - TH/SS x 5
- Dedicated Transport: Land Raider Redeemer - MM, Extra Armor 465 Points
Techmarine - Servo Harness, Combi- Melta 85 Points

Heavy Support:
Vindicator 115 Points
Vindicator 115 Points
Vindicator 115 Points

The list is meant to be highly "shooty", with the Assault Terminators, Vulkan, and the Techmarine to get into CC when needed. At first, I toyed around with the Command Squad, and thought I might be able to squeeze in another Bike Squad for a Troop choice, but then seeing as how the Apothecary adds a small cushion for their weapons "Getting Hot", it worked out better that way. (I actually had to use the FNP rule a few times, and it did save me 4/5 times).

At any rate, the list is meant to be competitive, but I'm sure there're holes in it still. Feel free to use it as a starting point.

Good luck!

That is a pretty scary Ard Boyz list. Vulkan is definitely a good compliment to Bike lists and at the high point level of Ard Boyz it's more feasible to run him as well as the captain on bike. I hope you do better than 5th this year, I would love to see a bike based list on the top.

I would like to as well, but it's a list that gets most affected by the terrain used.
Less is more with bikers.
More gets REALLY annoying.

Now I'm not saying it's a terraible thing, but you can feel cramped at times esp. at the 2500 level.

Right, but to be fair, huge, 2500 point timed tournaments is a format that ruins most armies. I don't think I'd make a list for a regular game of 40k based solely on what did well at a tournament, much less some of the higher-point ones.

Yea, generally bikers are about force concentration and little if anything else.
You'll get lots of win big and lose big games with them at the start.

I know what you're saying... I ran into that problem last year, largely because I maxed out all of my bike squads. Hence, the smaller 5 man squads for better mobility in the revised list now.

Thanks, Overwatch, I hope to do better than 5th next year too. Won't know until I play it though.

At 2500 points I think the 4 min bike squads can get shot up dangerously fast making it so that you have to table your enemy to win objective games. I already feel like my 3X combat squaded units are a little light at 2000. At 2500 points I think a smart player would allow your land raider and vindicators to get close to you uncontested if it meant they could take away all of your scoring units and from the looks of it all 3 land speeders too. Vindicators don't scare MSU mech and MC's because the first can loose a tank or to and be fine the latter only takes one wound from your pie plate. Did ard' boys have alot of hoards show up? Whats with all the flamers and demolisher cannon shots?

There was a lot of IG players, followed closely by Orks. The point behind the Flamers and Demolisher Cannons though, would be to target MC's or MSU's, but at intervals where they can work off each other.

Demolisher Cannons can make short work of most Dedicated Transports, as can Land Speeders with TL MM's. If the MM's do the job first, my Demolisher Cannon can now shoot at the passengers.

Against armies with MC's (ie - Tyranids), my Land Speeders would be on dedicated duty to take them out, while the Demolisher Cannon focuses on swarm-like units.

4 Bike Squads at their minimum capacity is light, but in objective games, I only need to be on the objective by Turn 5 at the earliest. In the meantime, if I'm facing heavy Anti-Infantry, I can take cover behind my other vehicles until said opposing Anti-Infantry units are incapacitated, or until I find the opportune time to Turbo Boost, and close in on my opponent.

And while it is 'Ard Boyz, the list needs to have some form of balance to it, and thus is why I have the Flamers. Because without them, I'd be much harder pressed against horde/swarm-like armies. Ideally, if everyone knew who or what they'd be up against in a tournament, I probably wouldn't have to bring Flamers, but such is the case here, I believe.

Also, in objective games, if my opponent were to target my Troop choices and focus on them, the strategy would be true for me as well. If he's using his more powerful units to target my Troops, that only means he's not targeting elsewhere at my more powerful units. In the end, it could just come down to who tables who, but then again without having a real game to play out this hypothetical situation, there really isn't much else that can be said about it.

I would always be inclined to add more bikes rather than other stuff, if you can do. Attack bikes rather than speeders, for example, mean that opponents have nothing to shoot their high-strength, poor AP weapons (notably autocannons and Hive Guard) at that doesn't get a decent armour save against it. If you bring say 3-6 speeders in a mostly bike list, all the enemy's autocannons are going to be aiming at your speeders.

Ian Sturrock wrote:I would always be inclined to add more bikes rather than other stuff, if you can do. Attack bikes rather than speeders, for example, mean that opponents have nothing to shoot their high-strength, poor AP weapons (notably autocannons and Hive Guard) at that doesn't get a decent armour save against it. If you bring say 3-6 speeders in a mostly bike list, all the enemy's autocannons are going to be aiming at your speeders.

Assuming my opponent brings Autocannons, this is true. But again, there's no real way to plan for every little contingency in a tournament. If I notice he's got these kinds of weapons, I would obviously stay clear of them or within cover, until I can get a decent shot, or if I know with good certainty that sacrificing one of them would yield a better return for me.

When I play my mech marines I bring a crap load of autocannons and so do all the guard players I know. I think running into lots of auto cannons, missile launchers and lascannons is a pretty safe bet for tournament play.

Rurouni Benshin wrote:
HQ:
Captain - Bike, Power Sword 150 Points
Vulken He'stan 190 Points
Command Squad - Bikes, Plasmaguns x 4 265 Points

Troops:
Bike Squad - Attack Bike w/ MM, 2 Meltaguns, Sgt. w/ Combi-Melta 195 Points
Bike Squad - Attack Bike w/ MM, 2 Meltaguns, Sgt. w/ Combi-Melta 195 Points
Bike Squad - Attack Bike w/ MM, 2 Flamers, Sgt. w/ Combi-Flamer 185 Points
Bike Squad - Attack Bike w/ MM, 2 Flamers, Sgt. w/ Combi-Flamer 185 Points

Fast:
Land Speeder - MM x 2 80 Points
Land Speeder - MM x 2 80 Points
Land Speeder - MM x 2 80 Points

Elites:
Terminator Assault Squad - TH/SS x 5
- Dedicated Transport: Land Raider Redeemer - MM, Extra Armor 465 Points
Techmarine - Servo Harness, Combi- Melta 85 Points

Heavy Support:
Vindicator 115 Points
Vindicator 115 Points
Vindicator 115 Points

Wicked, I love it.

@ Cromwest: True enough. That being said, I'll be sure to make good use of my 240 points of Land Speeders before every Autocannon, Missile Launcher, and Lascannon begin pounding away at my 240 points worth of Land Speeders...

@ Augustus: Thank you. Still a work in progress, but it's getting there.

Rurouni, don't get me wrong, I was thinking mostly of the original poster's question, rather than your list. You already have a wide variety of targets there. Admittedly the speeders are the only ones with a significant vulnerability to autocannons, but still -- you don't *just* have a bike list. (I'm assuming that paired multimeltas on the speeders mean you expect each speeder to be deepstriking, wiping out a more expensive tank, and getting smoked next turn, anyway.)

Ian,

I understand the list doesn't scream out "Bikes Only", and if I were to play a more flavorful or fluffy list, it would not look anything like what I posted here. Maybe this wasn't the right thread for it afterall, but the OP had asked a general question about making Bike List Armies, and I thought my list was at least somewhat related to the topic.

In regards to Land Speeders, I don't particularly like Deep Striking them actually. While it is a sound tactic, my usual strategy is starting them on the field, and picking out the easier armor targets first (ie - Rhinos, Chimeras, other AV of 12 or lower). Furthermore, if I were to Deep Strike them, and ultimately sacrifice them next turn, I wouldn't bother putting a second MM on them either. Why waste 20 points per LS when I know it's getting destroyed in a turn, right?

I usually don't aim at Land Raiders (or any AV higher than 12) unless I have "Melta" range. So in the case of Land Raiders, I usually wait for them to approach me somewhat before my Melta weapons engage. That way I don't have to move across half the board to get off a single shot. And if he's not moving his Land Raider forward, well then I figure that's 500+ points worth of his army that he's keeping back and avoiding combat with. Either way, both situations can work in my favor, so long as I target the right units first.

Against Vindicators, I follow a similar strategy with them as I do against Land Raiders. Having a 24" range forces them to come out towards me somewhat, and if I have to go Cruising Speed the next turn just for a single MM shot, I would take it. Against Predators that just sit back and shoot from far, those would be a bit more problematic for Land Speeders. I suppose my best strategy at approaching them would be to Turbo Boost with one of my Melta Bike Squads, and get to it the following turn before it can do too much damage to me.

At any rate, I know my list doesn't have the solution to facing every list, and nor is it by any means a fluffly bike list either. It's just a list that incorporates Bikes to, IMHO, a moderate degree.

To each their own.