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An interesting situation came up over at Warseer... someone asked about the Turboboost cover save for bikes that are joined by an IC without that USR in the same turn they 'boosted. It's clear they lose the USR - but what happens to the cover save and the restrictions on "voluntary actions"? Do the bikes keep the effects even if they lose the USR, and if so does it extend to the joined IC? Do the bikes suddenly count as not turboboosting so they can shoot and assult? Do the bikes teleport back to max 12" moved in order to not make the game implode?

edit: or would an IC joining require that the unit be able to take voluntary action? Joining doesn't seem to require anything from the unit, only that the IC get within 2".

Spetulhu wrote:An interesting situation came up over at Warseer... someone asked about the Turboboost cover save for bikes that are joined by an IC without that USR in the same turn they 'boosted. It's clear they lose the USR - but what happens to the cover save and the restrictions on "voluntary actions"? Do the bikes keep the effects even if they lose the USR, and if so does it extend to the joined IC? Do the bikes suddenly count as not turboboosting so they can shoot and assult? Do the bikes teleport back to max 12" moved in order to not make the game implode?

edit: or would an IC joining require that the unit be able to take voluntary action? Joining doesn't seem to require anything from the unit, only that the IC get within 2".

Huh. This IS interesting.

I would have to say that the game breaks, as the RaW indicates they lose Turbo Boosters, which means they can't have gotten to where they are (because they Turbo Boosted).

However, lets say that we allow them to be where they are since they had TB at the time they moved, they would certainly lose the cover save, since they no longer have the TB rule to tell you that you got a cover save from moving so fast.

All in all, I would suggest NOT doing this, as it causes too many headaches.

I just realized there's a parallel. Shrike joins a unit. The unit runs in the shooting phase and then assaults. Shrike dies during the assault move and the unit loses Fleet. Does the assault suddenly become invalid?



For the Turbo-boost cover save, I'm of the opinion that the unit get's disqualified because it has no longer moved more than 18" from it's starting position--one part of it only moved 6". But that's just going with "This is the rule you were using at the time, so those constraints apply".

I do not believe you lose Chapter Tactics (probably saying that wrong) when the particular character dies. If Shrike dies in the game the army does not lose Fleet. Been awhile since I played standard marines though so I could be wrong.

Haha...ok, how 'bout this?

Unit of bikes turbo boosts. An IC without the turbo boost ability joins the unit.

If, as Gwar! says, the unit then loses the turbo boost rule, could they then launch an assault in the upcoming assault phase? It would stand to reason that if they unit loses the cover save they would lose other restrictions...

Bikeninja wrote:I do not believe you lose Chapter Tactics (probably saying that wrong) when the particular character dies. If Shrike dies in the game the army does not lose Fleet. Been awhile since I played standard marines though so I could be wrong.

You don't. I've sniped that bastard so many times thinking it did... Then came the frigging SS TH termies...

Well by Gwar reasoning (it scares me to say that I am trying to think like him in anyway ) then I would say yes; they could indeed assault.

For me I would say this. If a unit turbo boosts and at the end of the turbo boost move they were within the 2 inches of an IC you would have to take the turbo boost +4 cover save but could not take anything that came from the IC that turn.

To me that would be the fair way to do it. And then next turn act accordingly.

That is a really good question though. I have never come against that one. I could see where it could be abused big time.

I would disagree on them losing the cover save, actually.

Per the wording of the Turbo-Boosters rule, the cover save is awarded in the next enemy shooting phase if the bike (not the unit) utilised the Turbo Boosters rule. So the fact that the unit no longer has the rule by then is irrelevant... Each bike that Boosts gains a cover save in the following enemy shooting phase.

For the other restrictions, the rules tell us that a unit loses certain USRs if joined by an IC without the same USR. It doesn't say this is retroactive to the start of the turn, so there is no problem with how far the unit has moved already. I would also think that the restrictions that follow Boosting would still apply, since they are a direct consequence of using the Turbo Boosters rule, not of having it. Whether or not the bikes still have the USR when the shooting phase rolls around, hey made use of Turbo Boosters, and so can not shoot in the same turn. Likewise with assaulting.

? It's a non-issue, the bikes made use of a rule and that rule has a collection of effects. The effects have a duration and are in no way dependant on retaining the Turbo-boosters USR. Loss of rule =\= loss of effects with specific duration.

Btw Bikey turbo is 3+C

Spetulhu wrote:An interesting situation came up over at Warseer... someone asked about the Turboboost cover save for bikes that are joined by an IC without that USR in the same turn they 'boosted. It's clear they lose the USR - but what happens to the cover save and the restrictions on "voluntary actions"? Do the bikes keep the effects even if they lose the USR, and if so does it extend to the joined IC? Do the bikes suddenly count as not turboboosting so they can shoot and assult? Do the bikes teleport back to max 12" moved in order to not make the game implode?

edit: or would an IC joining require that the unit be able to take voluntary action? Joining doesn't seem to require anything from the unit, only that the IC get within 2".

You move the bikes by the turbo-boost USR. They move up to 24" and cannot make any other voluntary action that turn. If all models in the unit move >18" then they get a cover save.

Now, you've joined an IC character to that squad by moving the IC into coherency and the IC joins that unit - the bikes. No rules broken here, you just now have a Bike Unit with an attached IC.

Since all models in the unit did not moved > 18", you do not get the cover save. The bike unit cannot assault due to the USR that they used. The IC cannot assault due to now being part of the bike unit.

Whether or not the bikes can turbo-boost next turn depends on if the USR has an asterisk next to it or not. I'm not sure on the order that the unit moves. If you can move bikes or IC first to split them off, or if they have to move at the same time in different directions to split.

ryan3740 wrote:
Since all models in the unit did not moved > 18", you do not get the cover save.

This is not correct. The Turbo-Boosters USR provides a 3+ cover save to each individual bike that moved via turbo-bosters. It does not grant a save to the unit.

Units don't always have the same saves.

It says "A unit using turbo boosters must end its movement more than 18 inches away from its starting point." The question becomes how do you measure that when an IC joins. 18 inches away from where the bikes started, the ic started, or both.

Ok I'm asking to be flamed but ... Raw is the unit no longer has the USR so they loose there cover save however they may now assault ^_^

As i play it ... They cannot be joined by a model that cannot use "turbo boosters" as they would loose the rule and not be able to use "turbo boosters".

That's a false premise~!

As a result of using the 'TURBO-BOOSTERS' USR, there is a host of effect that happen to the bike, these effects are in no way dependent on, IC's joining or having the Turbo rule. It's somthing you've already made use of, and as such must suffer a condition of "may not execute any other voluntary action in the same turn.".

@Tri
I think I understand where your houserule is coming from thou tri, Do you perhaps mean that if a unit has utilised Turbo boosters then IC's are unable to join for the rest of the player turn? Becuase as you say it it sounds like never.

Additional read brings one thing of note up, the wording has the individual bikers being immune to pinning not the unit, which takes the test.

ChrisCP wrote:That's a false premise~!

As a result of using the 'TURBO-BOOSTERS' USR, there is a host of effect that happen to the bike, these effects are in no way dependent on, IC's joining or having the Turbo rule. It's somthing you've already made use of, and as such must suffer a condition of "may not execute any other voluntary action in the same turn.".

@Tri
I think I understand where your houserule is coming from thou tri, Do you perhaps mean that if a unit has utilised Turbo boosters then IC's are unable to join for the rest of the player turn? Becuase as you say it it sounds like never.

Additional read brings one thing of note up, the wording has the individual bikers being immune to pinning not the unit, which takes the test.

^_^ no till the next turn ... unless they use turbo boosters again ^_^

As for the rule they no longer have it so it can no longer effect them ... put it another way a unit with "hit and run" and IC without, the IC dies can they use HnR? In the first case Turboo boosters nolonger applies as they no longer have the rule in the second the rule does apply as the IC has left the unit.

Ah-hah! =D The doesn't have any effect on the unit. The TB rule allows one to perform an action, and if one does one suffers a group of effects. Lack of the TB rule does not remove the ill effects. The ill effects are a result of using a rule, not from being in possesion of such a rule.

On the H&R one, iirc 'Removing Casualties' happens before the end of the assault phase and, although IC 'may not leave' during the phase, I feel that the removal of such a model is an involuntary action and results in the unit becoming that unit again (otherwise I'll just use that dead guys LD for this check k-thx) and you might indeed be locked in combat with the squad with H&R and be able to use it. Unless I've missed an FAQ or something

Melchiour wrote:It says "A unit using turbo boosters must end its movement more than 18 inches away from its starting point." The question becomes how do you measure that when an IC joins. 18 inches away from where the bikes started, the ic started, or both.

You don't need to measure it when the IC joins... the unit has already used the Turbo Boosters.

Sounds like the least assumptions are made by removing the rule but the bikes that met the requirements keep their save for the following shooting phase. The IC loses the ability to make any other actions as he joined a unit with that restriction.

Homer

Tri wrote:Ok I'm asking to be flamed but ... Raw is the unit no longer has the USR so they loose there cover save however they may now assault ^_^

As i play it ... They cannot be joined by a model that cannot use "turbo boosters" as they would loose the rule and not be able to use "turbo boosters".

So tomb spyders can never make scarab swarms by your logic?

Kevin949 wrote:

Tri wrote:Ok I'm asking to be flamed but ... Raw is the unit no longer has the USR so they loose there cover save however they may now assault ^_^

As i play it ... They cannot be joined by a model that cannot use "turbo boosters" as they would loose the rule and not be able to use "turbo boosters".

So tomb spyders can never make scarab swarms by your logic?

Yeah, I fail to understand the logic as well.

Kevin949 wrote:

Tri wrote:Ok I'm asking to be flamed but ... Raw is the unit no longer has the USR so they loose there cover save however they may now assault ^_^

As i play it ... They cannot be joined by a model that cannot use "turbo boosters" as they would loose the rule and not be able to use "turbo boosters".

So tomb spyders can never make scarab swarms by your logic?

? Guess I wasn't clear enough that they can't be join when they use turbo boosters ... was covered in the next post and we are talking about a unit joining a unit that just used turbo boosters.

There is already some precident for some models in a unit getting a cover save and others not. Vehicle squadrons do cover saves on a per model basis.

Why is it so hard for the initial bikes to have their cover save but the joining model does not?

cervidal wrote:There is already some precident for some models in a unit getting a cover save and others not. Vehicle squadrons do cover saves on a per model basis.

Errm... No they don't?

They follow the exact same rules for units when it comes to cover saves. It's just a lot harder for them because 50% of the vehicle has to be physically obscured for it to claim a cover save.

So if you had 3 Tanks, 1 which was 90% blocked, one that was 50.5% blocked and one what was 0% blocked, the whole unit would get a cover save, but if 1 was 99.9999999% blocked and the other two were 49.9% blocked, then no-one gets a cover save.

cervidal wrote:There is already some precident for some models in a unit getting a cover save and others not. Vehicle squadrons do cover saves on a per model basis.

Why is it so hard for the initial bikes to have their cover save but the joining model does not?

read the rules for cover saves again ... the unit ether has a cover save or doesn't have a cover save. By joining an IC that character now gets a 3+ cover save (unless its two IC joing one model) as cover saves are worked out for the majority or highest.

Cover saves are determined at the time of shooting unless an alternate factor overrides. The example you list is how cover saves are conferred based on the firing unit. For the turbo-boosting bikes, however, there is an earlier, overriding factor that is giving them their cover saves.

I really don't see a rules conflict here. Unit A did something to confer cover save B. Unit C joins up later without taking the steps to get ability B. Unit D shoots at the mob in a way where their line of sight would not grant cover save E. Nullifying E does not take away B.

Hang on... we're all assuming an IC can join a unit in any phase of a turn. Is this correct or not? I was under the assumption that an IC can join/break off a unit only in the Movement Phase. If this is indeed true then this scenario shouldn't of happened at all.

Juvieus Kaine wrote:Hang on... we're all assuming an IC can join a unit in any phase of a turn. Is this correct or not? I was under the assumption that an IC can join/break off a unit only in the Movement Phase. If this is indeed true then this scenario shouldn't of happened at all.

Why not?

Well why? Using that logic I can get a non JP commander from behind a bush to move him over with some assault marines from behind a tree in the other direction and land. Then I can fire with the commander and assault marines, then tag together for the assault... surely that's making it slightly complicated?

To take a step back for a moment, what is making you think that an IC can't join a unit on the turn it Turbo Boosts?

Are you perhaps thinking that Turbo Boosting happens in the shooting phase? (It doesn't) I can't see anything else that would potentially stop it.

... Dammit I got myself confused again.
I suppose the other thing is that the bikes finish their movement phase and benefit from the rules. However if a character were to join them AFTER they've moved then I'd think he wouldn't get the benefits but the Bikes would. Then again the IC would cancel out the rules because not everybody has them...

daym this one is a mess :S I suppose a possible solution would be to treat the bikes as having turbo-boosted and getting their benefits but the IC cannot get those benefits. When being shot at he can be targetted seperately (different rules after all) and he cannot assault.