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Khador

- Kommander Sorcha
- Juggernaut
- Destroyer

VS

Menoth

- Feora, Priestess of the Flame
- Avatar of Menoth
- Devout
- Devout

Depends, really.

IMHO, I'd put my money on Sorscha, that feat is incredible, and if she's positioned right she can assassinate from 17" (Wind Rush 6 + Charge +9 Reach + 2)

However, if the Menite player keeps Feora protected, it might become moot.

If the Khador player knows what he's doing, he should come out on top. While Sorscha does outthreat Feora, the big part of this matchup is that only 1 jack on the menoth side of the house can threat either of the Khador jacks, so unless Feora wants to turn on engine of destruction and try to handle things herself, the Aatar is going to be doing all of the legwork. With boudless charge, the Juggernaught and Avatar have similar threat ranged and whoever rolls into that fight first wins. On top of that, the Destroyer's gun easily out threats everything in the Menoth list.

It's not a garaunteed win, but the Khador list only has 1 real threat to worry about. If Feora wants to turn on the engine of destruction, she'll likely be openeing herself up to a fatal couterattack by Sorscha. If Khador Plays conservatively and uses their edge in heavy armor and range, they should be able to take it.

Drop those two devouts for a reckoner and now we have a game. But honestly Sorcha is a nightmare in small point games because her feat is so good against a small model count.
It's not really a matchup I would want to play against very often.

+1 for pSorscha. a real terror in small games like this.

I believe its completely 1-sided in menoths favour.

Feora can hide behind her 2 Devouts blocking LoS so Sorscha can't freeze her.

The avatar can survive the charge of the juggernaut and aslong as he keeps his sword arm. you just lost that juggernaut. P+S 21 with ignite.

Sorscha can't really hurt feora if she overboosts for 6 and can only really hit her if she is frozen.

Feora's feat will eat her face as Fire is just amazing.

Run the avatar, Gaze Sorscha. If you dont kill the avatar
Shes dead next turn. or may be dead anyway depends on wording.

Atm the points are completely unbalanced and Sorcsha should have Beast-09 instead of a normal juggernaut to make equal points to both sides.

Yeah, my first thought was "Why is the Khador player shorted on points?

One of the things I love the most about Warmachine/Hordes, is that while it's important what you bring, how you play it is more important.

As a Khador Player, I'm pretty sure I could give a good showing for myself in this fight. Soften up the Avatar with Bombard shots, forcing it to get closer, then have either (or both) of my Heavies charge in to wreck it...then it's just a downhill fight (though Feora should never be underestimated).

I would say the Devvy should be tasked with handling the Avatard to try to knock off the sword arm with crit amputation after shooting as above. The Juggy would not have to do much work on him. After that if she's turtling, maneuver for a slam, feat, game over man. Otherwise, feat to pin/wreck the devouts and have at her like epic Stryker should have.

Menoth for sure.

Even with boundless charge, the Avatar has a 0.5" threat range advantage. Add two Devouts who have nothing to do but push the Avatar up an inch and the Avatar is not being charged for sure.

The Avatar is likely to survive the retaliation from the remaining Khador Jack. This is especially true if both Devouts aren't needed to push and can just be ran into the remaining Jack or to protect the Avatar. Next turn the Avatar finishes off the second Khador heavy and the game is called.

If the Avatar losses its sword, Feora can finish off the remaining Jack and hopefully the Devouts can move into position to save her.

Revvy wrote:Menoth for sure.

Even with boundless charge, the Avatar has a 0.5" threat range advantage. Add two Devouts who have nothing to do but push the Avatar up an inch and the Avatar is not being charged for sure.

The Avatar is likely to survive the retaliation from the remaining Khador Jack. This is especially true if both Devouts aren't needed to push and can just be ran into the remaining Jack or to protect the Avatar. Next turn the Avatar finishes off the second Khador heavy and the game is called.

If the Avatar losses its sword, Feora can finish off the remaining Jack and hopefully the Devouts can move into position to save her.

Maybe I play too much Ret here, but I've got to say you're looking at this wrong. Khador has a gun, Menoth doesn't. If the Avatar can't force the Khador jacks to stick around by Gazing, they'll just kite him around the table hitting him in the face with bombard shots. If he does get close enough to gaze and make them fight, they're close enough to charge. The Avatar isn't going to have a good day if its already eaten 2 boosted shots from the bombard and gets that followed up by a Juggernaught beating it senseless with four POW 19s. If the Jugger gets a crit, the Avatar is also down a focus to shake the effect not even counting possible weapon losses. Even if it survives, unless it doesn't get critted byt the Jugger, doesn't lose the sword AND rolls high for focus, it's not coming out on top.

I think menoth has a slight edge despite the the lights being weak. the gaze of menoth and a slam can hold up both khadoran jacks and the avatar has a greater threat range. plus the bombard cannot hit feora with a devout nearby. the avatar makes its own focus so feora will be camping at least 3 every turn she isnt on the offensive making sorscha's assassination more a gamble.

Stationary models can't shield guard. Arcing fire ignores models so they can drop the shell over their heads.



Basically, there's no clear cut winner. It really comes down to skill of play, and tactics.

My money is on Menoth because Khador is getting screwed on points. Two Devouts running should be able to tie up the Khador jacks long enough for Avatar to crush either the Jugger or Scorsha, and Gaze will be a humongous advantage. There's a little bit of risk that Feora gets assassinated by Scorsha due to threat ranges, but on average Scorsha should fail and her 'jacks will be completely starved for focus.

Fightier warcaster + More points + Reach + more models is the kicker, in my opinion. If Khador had pButcher or Karchev and Beast-09 instead of the Jugger it'd be much more even.

Mastershake wrote:

Revvy wrote:Menoth for sure.

Even with boundless charge, the Avatar has a 0.5" threat range advantage. Add two Devouts who have nothing to do but push the Avatar up an inch and the Avatar is not being charged for sure.

The Avatar is likely to survive the retaliation from the remaining Khador Jack. This is especially true if both Devouts aren't needed to push and can just be ran into the remaining Jack or to protect the Avatar. Next turn the Avatar finishes off the second Khador heavy and the game is called.

If the Avatar losses its sword, Feora can finish off the remaining Jack and hopefully the Devouts can move into position to save her.

Maybe I play too much Ret here, but I've got to say you're looking at this wrong. Khador has a gun, Menoth doesn't. If the Avatar can't force the Khador jacks to stick around by Gazing, they'll just kite him around the table hitting him in the face with bombard shots. If he does get close enough to gaze and make them fight, they're close enough to charge. The Avatar isn't going to have a good day if its already eaten 2 boosted shots from the bombard and gets that followed up by a Juggernaught beating it senseless with four POW 19s. If the Jugger gets a crit, the Avatar is also down a focus to shake the effect not even counting possible weapon losses. Even if it survives, unless it doesn't get critted byt the Jugger, doesn't lose the sword AND rolls high for focus, it's not coming out on top.

Two Devouts vs one ROF 1 gun. Who cares if they get torn up for two or three turns? Sorcha is getting one shot in at the Avatar on feat turn, but that's it. She won't be able to get him with the feat and charge due to the Avatar's longer threat ranges. Khador doesn't have much advantages here.

If one side has a gun or guns and the other doesn't have a gun or guns (or a way to mitigate guns like stealth), melee threat ranges don't matter. Should the avatar walk up and say "ha I'm within 10" and not within 9.5" what are you going to do?" the Khador player in that scenario should say "I'm going to walk backwards 4" and keep shooting you. Would you like to do this again, because I think I'll come out on top here?" The avatar doesn't have the luxury of playing threat range shuffle, he has to get witihin gaze range or Khador will just keep walking backwards firing bombard shots. Yeah, you got shield guards, that's cute, but it isn't stopping you from taking damage, just changing whats taking damage.

The best chance Menoth has in this scenario is to gaze and run avatar and put devouts to block the charge, but in this scenario, Khador also has an edge. Sorscha feats and should easily be able to catch all 3 then, the jugger and Destroyer each eat a devout. Now the Avatar has to try and bring down a Khdaor heavy with 1 less focus due to shaking effect. If he rolls average, this isn't happening and depending on columns could easily leave it with key systems left. Feora can't join in the fray because between her and the Avatar even with engine, they still aren't bringing down both jacks and she'll easily be within Sorscha's threat range. All Sorscha has to do is land one crit stationary with her melee and Feora's done. If she's at full camp that means there's a fully operational jack left and if she's not, then it doesn't matter because Sorscha cna just beat her down personally. If Foera didn't joing the fray, the Avatar is likley getting crit stationary by Sorscha and stomped by the remaining jack and whatever weapon systems are left of the other which the avatar won't survive in any condition to fight (especially since yet again it's still burning one focus to shake)

I ran through this scenario a few times on vassal, Menoth gets lucky maybe 1 in 6 times, but the rest, the Avatar doesn't have the damage to get enough systems which forces Feora to join the fray or risk being alone, then she gets beat down.

Gotta disagree with you. The Bombard on a Spd 4 Rat 4 model is simply not enough to mitigate the points advantage of the Menoth player. Destroyers don't have Bushwhack either, so it's always going to be a maximum of 16" between the models for the first shot, and probably closer because Scorsha's 12" ctrl radius won't allow for exact pre-measuring. Dev shoots 16", Devouts and Avatar run 10". Dev backs off 4 and shoots 10, Devouts run 10"+2" reach and it's likely that both the Juggernaut and Dev are engaged.

You get exactly two shots before melee combat. Unless you roll insanely and wipe out the movement columns on one of the Devouts with your first shot, the bombard is going to do very little to damage or slow the Menoth player.

Then it comes down to melee combat, and this is not an area where Scorsha or the Destroyer are very suited to being. The Khador jacks will have to boost to hit the Devouts reliably and intelligent positioning + Gaze can prevent the Khador models from advancing until the Devouts are dead.

Menoth will grind down Khador in an attrition battle which only makes sense since they have a points advantage. It all comes down to Scorsha having to succeed in the assassination run, and if Feora only spends 2 focus a turn running the Devouts that's going to be VERY hard for her to do, even if she does successfully circumvent Gaze and feat for automatic hits, because she still needs to hack through a bunch of boxes with a low P&S against a moderately high ARM.

I don't know how you can possibly say you ran through this successfully on Vassal 5/6 times for Khador unless you're heavily biased against Menoth. 11 point lists just don't beat 16 (think Menoth is 11 + 5 + 5 - 5 warjack points) point lists that definitively.

Gotta disagree with you. The Bombard on a Spd 4 Rat 4 model is simply not enough to mitigate the points advantage of the Menoth player. Destroyers don't have Bushwhack either, so it's always going to be a maximum of 16" between the models for the first shot, and probably closer because Scorsha's 12" ctrl radius won't allow for exact pre-measuring. Dev shoots 16", Devouts and Avatar run 10". Dev backs off 4 and shoots 10, Devouts run 10"+2" reach and it's likely that both the Juggernaut and Dev are engaged.

In your exmaple you're running into their melee threat range. Like I was saying, It's impossible to both get into a position where the jacks can't walk away and get into a position where they can't get to you, so the Khador heavies will always be taking the first swings in melee and with a POW 17, the Destroyer really doesn't mind that.

Then it comes down to melee combat, and this is not an area where Scorsha or the Destroyer are very suited to being. The Khador jacks will have to boost to hit the Devouts reliably and intelligent positioning + Gaze can prevent the Khador models from advancing until the Devouts are dead.

Menoth will grind down Khador in an attrition battle which only makes sense since they have a points advantage. It all comes down to Scorsha having to succeed in the assassination run, and if Feora only spends 2 focus a turn running the Devouts that's going to be VERY hard for her to do, even if she does successfully circumvent Gaze and feat for automatic hits, because she still needs to hack through a bunch of boxes with a low P&S against a moderately high ARM.

As pointed out in my example, Sorscha feats both to stationary the devouts and force the Avatar to shake next turn then the Khador jacks easily murder the devouts. Then it just comes down to if the Avatar can do enough damage to take the Juggernaught out of the fight in a turn when its down a focus for shaking stationary and 5/6 times this doesn't happen.

I don't know how you can possibly say you ran through this successfully on Vassal 5/6 times for Khador unless you're heavily biased against Menoth. 11 point lists just don't beat 16 (think Menoth is 11 + 5 + 5 - 5 warjack points) point lists that definitively.

You're forgetting that 10 of the Menoth points are doing little in this fight other than trying to get into the way because they can't do meaningful damage to the Khador heavies. Being up in points doesn't mean much when your points can't meaningfully contribute.

Mastershake wrote:[As pointed out in my example, Sorscha feats both to stationary the devouts and force the Avatar to shake next turn then the Khador jacks easily murder the devouts. Then it just comes down to if the Avatar can do enough damage to take the Juggernaught out of the fight in a turn when its down a focus for shaking stationary and 5/6 times this doesn't happen.

Only way for Scorsha to feat the Avatar is for her to also be within its threat radius (5" mvmt +3" charge +2" push). That's a rather minor point, though, because Feora is going to walk up and hit her with two flamers and also set her on fire. Unless Scorsha puts it out next turn, she's dead. (And that's assuming you've done something clever to block LoS to Scorsha afterwards with the Juggernaut or Destroyer; Engine of Destruction pFeora can be pushed 1" and out-threat Scorsha's feat.

You're forgetting that 10 of the Menoth points are doing little in this fight other than trying to get into the way because they can't do meaningful damage to the Khador heavies. Being up in points doesn't mean much when your points can't meaningfully contribute.

Blocking models + Gaze means your Juggernaut and Destroyer have to kill 40 boxes worth of moderately high Def/ARM warjacks before they can meaningfully contribute in melee while Avatar gets to pick his targets.

Your only counter is Scorsha's feat, and if she's doing that, Feora kills her with fire sprays.

Now we're just playing Theorymachine.



Hmm, i need to go find a Protectorate player...

Devilsquid wrote:Now we're just playing Theorymachine.



Hmm, i need to go find a Protectorate player...

Isn't that all we do on the internet?

^
Wins the interent.

No doubt there's a whole lot of theorymachine going on here, but I'm confident in the ability of a melee caster with a 16 point list to beat a support/harassment caster with an 11 point list. Yeah, Khador has some tools and Scorsha can provide some utility, but two Devouts are more than capable of screening Avatar from the Juggernaut. As long as that's happening, the Khador player is going to have to expose Scorsha to remove the screen or throw away the juggernaut, and neither of those things are going to give a win very reliably.

If Khador also had Drakhun or a unit of Man o Wars to even up the forces, then I'd say that the advantage probably would shift to Khador due to mobility.

What I don't get is why people are still talking about a match that is 11 vs 16?

Strimen wrote:What I don't get is why people are still talking about a match that is 11 vs 16?

Because it's on here and there isn't anything better to do?

Sometimes you work with what you have.


As a Pressganger, if someone said "These are all the models I have.", I'd play them with a box set, or maybe a few points cheaper than them, just so they could get a game in.

Hmm, for 5pts, I could put Fenris in. Very sassy. *vroom*vroom*

Well, I think with smart playing the Khador player could take the menoth player but only by an assassination run, going toe to toe with the avatar plus the feat of the Menoth warcaster can make a drawn out game tough for Khador.

Devilsquid wrote:Sometimes you work with what you have.


As a Pressganger, if someone said "These are all the models I have.", I'd play them with a box set, or maybe a few points cheaper than them, just so they could get a game in.

Hmm, for 5pts, I could put Fenris in. Very sassy. *vroom*vroom*

you have met a newbie that list build and buy individual models and Buy Avatar as one of their first purchase?
and play at an odd point?