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Now I have finished an army of confederates which is based on the film Gettysburg and a few other random things which you can see in my gallery. I have had both positive and some negative feedback about the army and I just wanted to know if and why you find the confederate flag offensive.

In my opinion I understand why people find it offensive and I shared the opinion at one point but I have changed due to men like Lee and Pickett. They both dislike slavery and fought for their homes and family against a massive army with better equipment. The story sounds heroic in a way and as I live in the UK I have had like a 3rd party view where there is little bias on each side. To me the flags meaning depends on how it is displayed. If Robert DuVall displayed the flag I would think nothing of it as he is related to Robert E Lee however if I saw a white supremacists nut case with the flag I would feel it is an immoral use and even though it is not aimed at offending me I would feel shamed as the minority are ruining it for the majority who want the flag to honour their family.

I myself am a liberal. I feel there is no point in purposely offending people but I understand the argument of those who are supportive of the flag for it to represent their southern ancestors and through learning of it I found it to be not as bad as some people say. I do have to say I don't fully agree with some of the political reasons of war or with certain generals like NB Forest or the president Jefferson Davis as they are both racist extremists to keep oppression. I only agree to the flag by the fact that many young men fought this war for the defence of their nation. Most of the young soldiers came from poor backgrounds and didn't have slaves and many again were conscripted by the tyrannical president.

I also have to say the north was in no position of a moral argument. I recall General John Chivington who was a man of religion massacred a whole village of native americans (with white and us flags to show they were mutal in the war) with 110 women and children gunned down. Also general grant was supportive of anti-Semitism which is again evil and he owned slave till the end of the war when he was Forced to free them.

they are your models
you shouldn"t really care what some dude on the internet thinks about them

I don't see ant problem with it, it's still the Alabama state flag,

If you feel you might offend somebody switch the colors around, a blue background with red cross.

For perspective it is not that different than trying to argue to certain groups that the swastika in not just a symbol of the Nazi government and the bad things that happened during the war but had further meaning prior to its use in WW2.

Being that you are in the UK. Do what you want and enjoy your army. But understand that such a paint scheme would more than likely cause people to talk in the US.

The Flag, right or wrong is linked to organizations that show not tolerance for certain people and in the US very often carries a second meaning.

Do whatever you want, but the confederate flag is considered pretty trashy nowadays, used mostly by rednecks, white trash, and hillbillies... and even they oftentimes find it trashy.

FM Ninja 048 wrote:I don't see ant problem with it, it's still the Alabama state flag,

Alabama offends me.

Melissia wrote:Alabama offends me.

Yes, but otherwise I don't see much of a reason.

Other than it's a little tacky to have the south rising again in the 41st millenium. Do you really think ideas of the confederacy would have survived that long?

Why is this in 40K Gen discussion?

and there isn't anything to get offended about by the Stars and Bars. the Civil War was over a states rights issue. something that is still talked about today.


besides, the south lost. displaying it is a reminder of that defeat.

A tad offensive, but it's a table top game so I think people will understand.

Yea I dont think the confederacy would have lasted till M41, STARCRAFT on the other hand......

i did have a mother who came in during a FoW game and almost had a meltdown when she saw the Swastika painted on some German tanks.

"gee lady, it's a WW2 game. of course there will be Swastikas on the German tanks. it's what they did"

FM Ninja 048 wrote:I don't see ant problem with it, it's still the Alabama state flag,

If you feel you might offend somebody switch the colors around, a blue background with red cross.

This works. There's nothing wrong with a Confederate/Union based army with those colors, just shy away from the actual battleflag.

Mr Nobody wrote:A tad offensive, but it's a table top game so I think people will understand.

Care to explain why its a tad offensive?

I just cant understand how anyone could be offended about a paintjob on minatures.

Believe me, their will be that one person who will think it's a personal statement.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm not that one person.

If you're doing a Civil War army, it's at least somewhat historically accurate.*

* I say somewhat as I don't know what the historical heraldry for ACW forces was... Was it mostly state banners, the rebel flag, both, etc? I'm guessing it varied by unit size, too.

Still, it's your life, and I can't and shouldn't try to make you do things my way.

@MrNobody: I wasnt saying it was you. If you thought i was directing towards you.

I guess in this cookie cutter society we live in everyone gets offended by everything.

Im offended someone was offended by your confederate army.

Just sounds stupid doesnt it........

Frazzled wrote:

FM Ninja 048 wrote:I don't see ant problem with it, it's still the Alabama state flag,

If you feel you might offend somebody switch the colors around, a blue background with red cross.

This works. There's nothing wrong with a Confederate/Union based army with those colors, just shy away from the actual battleflag.

I think this is a great idea

I thought (via wikipedia) that the Alabama state flag was white with a red X? Sure, it shares a broad design motif with the traditional confederate flag, but not much else...

I saw another thread where people went a little nuts on you, but There is nothing inherently racist about the confederate flag. But, in america some racists do use that flag for stupid reasons (they're racists so don't expect their intelligence to be overwhelming) on everything, and don't have any idea what the civil war was really about. As long as you don't have anything racist in your army (black servitors or something equally stupid) you're fine. Just be prepared to have to explain to someone why they're mistaken when they do have a problem with you, or be prepared for them to just think you're a racist. I will say the land speeder makes your army look a little more like a modern racist who throws the flag on everything, and it comes off as tacky. (even though it is kinda cool/funny as I know you're most likely not) I'm from Ohio and we were union, but a lot of the rednecks here are in love with the flag for good and bad reasons. I'm sure peoples opinions on the matter are different in the UK but I thought I'd let you know how Some of us here feel.

I guess the question would be how offended would you be if I painted an "insurgency" force with tallarns, waving about an Iraqi flag? After all, there were laudable members of Iraqi military, even under Saddam.

I consider the confederate flag dangerous because of simple minded people who use it as a catalyst to justify racism.

Honestly I dont consider it offensive, but I do agree with Melissa (????) that it basically just represents the hillbillies, hicks and the more trashy elements right now

For the OP tho, I think its a bit inane for a british person to paint their army with an american symbol with such emotional and historical power.. and not really even understand why it could be offensive

The nazi analogy applies pretty good.. Even if the south weren't nazis.. Its still a former symbol of oppression (the stars and stripes is more stylish also)

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:I guess the question would be how offended would you be if I painted an "insurgency" force with tallarns, waving about an Iraqi flag? After all, there were laudable members of Iraqi military, even under Saddam.

Well considering you can buy the actually figs on the internet....I don't see a problem with it.

http://www.blackscorpionminiatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=26&products_id=62


As for the symbolism; I guess whether or not the concept of the confederate flag could be offensive to those who have no knowledge of history and the causes of the civil war and just base their opinion on the nuts that are waving it around in this century. The OP is correct that many people in the confederacy found the idea of slavery repugnant but still fought on the side of the south during the war. The reason for this was that the war, itself, was fought over state's rights. It was the ultimate expression of a political struggle between the Democratic southern states and the whig/republican controlled northern states.

Shock of shocks there were actual states that allowed slavery that were a part of the Union...why? you might ask...because the issue was less about slavery and more about big brother telling the member states what to do. All of this is actually quite timely considering all the sabre rattling that the right-wing tea partiers are doing these days and the rallies in Texas with talk of seccession...(not that it will ever happen).

CurrentlyUnknown wrote:I guess the question would be how offended would you be if I painted an "insurgency" force with tallarns, waving about an Iraqi flag? After all, there were laudable members of Iraqi military, even under Saddam.

Enough to think you're an idiot...

You guys are right. Any country where slavery was ever legal should change their flag. Oh and don't use them or any similar ones in or on your models. We should really destroy any photos of said offensive symbols and flags so extremists don't use them as something to rally around. All references to such things should be banned and within a few generations all will be forgotten. Or repeated, one or the other.

These flags are full of awesomeness without the baggage, although from a slightly earlier era (Revolutionary period). I thought the Confederacy used similar ones but couldn't find it atm.





"Don't tread on me". Best flag slogan ever

Reference links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Navy_Jack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culpeper_Minutemen

I checked out Mordian's posts and it looks like he does have a "Confederate Army' using IG rules/models.

<edit>
You know, I've got a bunch more stuff worth doing than arguing on the internet. Have fun, though.
</edit>

Of course, this is all my opinion.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, wouldn't the Confederate force be pretty diametrically opposed to the Imperium? Sure, they're not chaos-worshippers, but I don't see a "state's rights" platform getting any attention other than the Inquisition in 40k...

I wouldn't feel bad about offending anyone with a confederate flag, I met this one douchebag who brought his Swatstika waving Nazi IG army to the comic store on the one day that a couple of actual Jewish people came for the first time. Needless to say, I haven't seen either of them since.

Edit: nevermind, Balance answered my question..

niceguyteddy wrote:You guys are right. Any country where slavery was ever legal should change their flag. Oh and don't use them or any similar ones in or on your models. We should really destroy any photos of said offensive symbols and flags so extremists don't use them as something to rally around. All references to such things should be banned and within a few generations all will be forgotten. Or repeated, one or the other.

sarcasm - FAIL



Automatically Appended Next Post:

RiTides wrote:These flags are full of awesomeness without the baggage, although from a slightly earlier era (Revolutionary period). I thought the Confederacy used similar ones but couldn't find it atm.





"Don't tread on me". Best flag slogan ever

Reference links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Navy_Jack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culpeper_Minutemen

Here's two more

So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?

CT GAMER wrote:So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?

I think that boy would be high on the idiot scale or TFG. Either way - pointing and laughing is an effective cleansing agent in this circumstance.