The confederate Flag

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**revackey**

Theres nothing wrong with the rebel flag in my opinion. I mean, this is the 21st century, what happened is past. The Confederacy was not like the Nazi's massacring innocents. They stuck up for what they thought was right at the time. If someone tells you how, "Stupid" or "Trashy" that is ignore them. Ultimately it is your army do what you want.

Also, Mellisa, I have to say you seem quite stuck up. I live in the suburbs of CT, and there are a few local who have the rebel flag somewhere or another. And they are not at all rednecks or white trash.

Haters gonna hate.

**Maledictus**

Ok did no one read my post? im going all caps now so you can hear me...

THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN POSTED THREE TIMES BY THE SAME GUY, HE ABANDONS THE THREAD AFTER HE CREATES IT EACH TIME.

HE'S TROLLING YOU.

EDIT: LOOK AT HIS POSTING HISTORY.

EDIT #2: ALSO IT MIGHT HELP TO MOVE THIS TO THE OFF TOPIC BOARD.

**CT GAMER**

ArbitorIan wrote:you really shouldn't worry about the people who say it 'offends them'.

And yet he keeps posting essentially the same thread over and over again asking if people are offended.

It isn't like we busted his door down and started berating him about this. He initiated this conversation.

Morale of the story: If you don't want people's opinions then don't solicit them for one...

**Valhallan42nd**

niceguyteddy wrote:You guys are right. Any country where slavery was ever legal should change their flag. Oh and don't use them or any similar ones in or on your models. We should really destroy any photos of said offensive symbols and flags so extremists don't use them as something to rally around. All references to such things should be banned and within a few generations all will be forgotten. Or repeated, one or the other.

The Slippery Slope is a fallacy in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any argument for the inevitability of the event in question. In most cases, there are a series of steps or gradations between one event and the one in question and no reason is given as to why the intervening steps or gradations will simply be bypassed. This "argument" has the following form:

A Confederate force in an ACW game with a confederate flag=okay.

A Confederate Imperial Guard Army with Daisy Duke and the General Lee=Pushing it.

Sans Daisy Duke=Not cool, bro.

**Sazzlefrats**

Why are you putting it on GW models... there's no historical reason to do it? So that makes it odd and out of place. I don't think anyone will mind all the same, gotta remember this was on the General Lee even in that recent reincarnation of the Dukes of Hazard.

**grizgrin**

Odd and out of place? A few years back an army went to a Grand Tourney that was all done up like the last stand at the Alamo. Got a lot of accolades, a spread in White Dwarf. Had models running around in sombreros and stuff. And HOW does that have more "historical reason" than any other themed army? Why does it have to have historical reason or relevance? Maybe taking the grimdark a bit too seriously, eh? Mind you, if that;'s how you want to build your stuff that's well cool and fine, go for it an more power to you. But expecting everyone else to adhere to that mindset is a bit close-minded.

**Melissia**

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:First of all the Civil War was not about slavery

Well here's someone that didn't actually read the post he quoted. Good job not responding to my post and instead responding to a strawman.

Melissia wrote:It was about slavery. Not JUST about slavery, not even primarily about slavery, but it WAS an issue for a great deal of people during the time.

Because you know, wars can never be about more than one thing. I mean goddamn we humans are such simple creatures with simple, easy to understand, non-conflicting ideals!

**sabote**

End of the day you are in the UK. So why does it really matter? Just do what you want, its not like you are going to find a whole lot of people to argue about it in the UK.

or

You just like to see people discussing this topic over and over again.

**Ratius**

THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN POSTED THREE TIMES BY THE SAME GUY, HE ABANDONS THE THREAD AFTER HE CREATES IT EACH TIME.

HE'S TROLLING YOU.

EDIT: LOOK AT HIS POSTING HISTORY.

EDIT #2: ALSO IT MIGHT HELP TO MOVE THIS TO THE OFF TOPIC BOARD.

Bizarre.

**Frazzled**

ArbitorIan wrote:The absolute thing to remember is that people choose to be offended. Being offended by something is a choice you take, not a reaction you have no part in. And, since people can choose to dislike your army for any number of reasons, you really shouldn't worry about the people who say it 'offends them'.

Unless they stand there and point and laugh at you of course, or you get thrown out of the store/tournament.

**warboss**

Melissia wrote:Because you know, wars can never be about more than one thing. I mean goddamn we humans are such simple creatures with simple, easy to understand, non-conflicting ideals!

that's why i play 2 imperial armies in 40k... because the wars are only about one thing.

heretic = burn. xenos = purge. simple enough. blessed is the mind too simple for doubt.

**UsdiThunder**

The history you learn in school has been diluted into what they can teach you in a certain amount of time. It is never fully correct. If you study the the true causes you'll find out it was a bunch of policies that included the economic downturn for the South if they lost the slaves.

The Confederate Battle Flag has a place in history. If you are playing a miniatures game set in the civil war era there should be no problem with it's use.

But we are talking the 41st century. There should not be any reference to any pre 31st century history since the earth had gone though an apocalypse which allowed the Emporah of Mankind to come to power. In the end the fluff don't support it.

**Balance**

As has been pointed out, it appears we've been trolled. Might be best for the mods to close the thread...

**SoloFalcon1138**

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:
Melissia wrote:It was about slavery. Not JUST about slavery, not even primarily about slavery, but it WAS an issue for a great deal of people during the time.

Regardless, it's still a rather trashy symbol here in the South.

First of all the Civil War was not about slavery, but about the rights of the Southern States, many of the southern states were oppossed slavery and wanted to end it. What we people were taught about "The Civil War" is through TV, and that the wrong way in telling or teaching history, but you can have your facts or primary sources incorrect. Most people would relate the south by movies like "Gone with the Wind" which was the antebellum south was only represented the Rich planation owners, 1 percent, wrong view about true south. Now if you want me to offend you i can, Slavery was nothing more than a form of Cheap Labor, Rich eiltest get richer and poor stay poor. A real simple concept that exist to this day.....China anyone. The Conferedate flag is not a trashy symbol, it a symbol of the southern history.

Couldn't have said it better!

**Frazzled**

Modquisition on. If you want to debate the US Civil War, do it somewhere else besides Dakka Discussions. Its not appropriate. Thank you.

**Monster Rain**

I really don't see the Confederate Flag as a big deal.

The Civil War was fought for a few other reasons than slavery, regardless of what PC Historical Revisionism they teach at schools. Slavery was part of it, and slavery was bad, but it wasn't the only reason that the war happened. That's all I'm going to say about it, Mods.

**evilsponge**

just as long as you aren't making nazi marines then I don't mind, especially since the entire army is civil war themed

**Agamemnon2**

Grey Templar wrote:i did have a mother who came in during a FoW game and almost had a meltdown when she saw the Swastika painted on some German tanks.

"gee lady, it's a WW2 game. of course there will be Swastikas on the German tanks. it's what they did"

German tanks did not have svastikas painted on them. They used the balkenkreuzas their national emblem. Planes did, however, often painted on both sides of the tail fin.

**Grey Templar**

Agamemnon2 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:i did have a mother who came in during a FoW game and almost had a meltdown when she saw the Swastika painted on some German tanks.

"gee lady, it's a WW2 game. of course there will be Swastikas on the German tanks. it's what they did"

German tanks did not have svastikas painted on them. They used the balkenkreuzas their national emblem. Planes did, however, often painted on both sides of the tail fin.

well, it was flags that were sculpted on to the tanks that had the swastika(i may not be spelling it right

) that caused the issue.

still it shows a little overreaction.

**skrulnik**

Grey Templar wrote:
Agamemnon2 wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:i did have a mother who came in during a FoW game and almost had a meltdown when she saw the Swastika painted on some German tanks.

"gee lady, it's a WW2 game. of course there will be Swastikas on the German tanks. it's what they did"

German tanks did not have svastikas painted on them. They used the balkenkreuzas their national emblem. Planes did, however, often painted on both sides of the tail fin.

well, it was flags that were sculpted on to the tanks that had the swastika(i may not be spelling it right ) that caused the issue.

still it shows a little overreaction.

I have seen most of the FOW models, and the captured British trucks had the flags across the hood.
I do not remember seeing any tanks that were like that.
But I know the German Army used many captured tanks, mostly Czech tanks IIRC.
It would make sense to identify captured vehicles with a flag on them, since the profile would remain unchanged.

**daedalus**

Oh god this thread again.

20th Century Man says: "You know, maybe it's not a bad thing that some people are offended. I wasn't going out of my way to offend, but simply perusing a theme that I felt was interesting and/or characterful, especially amidst multiple other stereotypical armies that I'm sure would offend someone somewhere. The world is varied and it is impossible to not offend someone somewhere, if by no other reason than my mere existence."

21st Century Man says: "ZOMG SO OFFENDED!!!11one. THIS IS EBIL AND YOU ARE INSENSITIVE TOWARD MY SENSITIVE SENSITIVITY! TAKE ZE OFFENDER AWAY TO TOLERANCE CAMP!"

**Neconilis**

Polonius wrote:Which states were against slavery? If they were, why didn't they end it?

I'd like to second that request.

**Frazzled**

daedalus wrote:Oh god this thread again.

20th Century Man says: "You know, maybe it's not a bad thing that some people are offended. I wasn't going out of my way to offend, but simply perusing a theme that I felt was interesting and/or characterful, especially amidst multiple other stereotypical armies that I'm sure would offend someone somewhere. The world is varied and it is impossible to not offend someone somewhere, if by no other reason than my mere existence."

21st Century Man says: "ZOMG SO OFFENDED!!!11one. THIS IS EBIL AND YOU ARE INSENSITIVE TOWARD MY SENSITIVE SENSITIVITY! TAKE ZE OFFENDER AWAY TO TOLERANCE CAMP!"

Frazzled says: If you have to model your wittle toy soldiers after nazis, confederates, and rednecks and stuff to get your jollies you have lots of issues way beyond just toy soldiers...

**Balance**

daedalus wrote:Oh god this thread again.

20th Century Man says: "You know, maybe it's not a bad thing that some people are offended. I wasn't going out of my way to offend, but simply perusing a theme that I felt was interesting and/or characterful, especially amidst multiple other stereotypical armies that I'm sure would offend someone somewhere. The world is varied and it is impossible to not offend someone somewhere, if by no other reason than my mere existence."

21st Century Man says: "ZOMG SO OFFENDED!!!11one. THIS IS EBIL AND YOU ARE INSENSITIVE TOWARD MY SENSITIVE SENSITIVITY! TAKE ZE OFFENDER AWAY TO TOLERANCE CAMP!"

For a big chunk of the 20th century, doing stuff like this would have been completely against societal taboos. We've progressed in that it can be done, even if it's considered bad taste, and we can discuss it.

**Jeep**

I don't understand what the big deal is, I was actually thinking this would be a fun theme myself some time. I've lived in the Northern US most of my life, and now have spent 3 years in northern Virginia, visiting the south pretty regularly. The flag is a pretty common sight, though most of the time it IS used by racist rednecks.

Anyway, in the WH40K universe, slavery would hardly be the worst thing an army could represent. Presumably, people don't have problems with other armies who destroy whole planets (and that's just the "good" guys!) I'm more familiar with fantasy, where DE economy relies on slavery, or Beastmen who rape their way through villages, etc... You see what I'm getting at? Though pretty bad in our setting, in the WH setting, the Confederates would be one of the more "honorable" nations.

**Melissia**

Frazzled wrote:Frazzled says: If you have to model your wittle toy soldiers after nazis, confederates, and rednecks and stuff to get your jollies you have lots of issues way beyond just toy soldiers...

Agreed.

Besides, the Imperium is an equal opportunity oppressor.

**daedalus**

Balance wrote:
For a big chunk of the 20th century, doing stuff like this would have been completely against societal taboos. We've progressed in that it can be done, even if it's considered bad taste, and we can discuss it.

I don't know, political correctness and the everpresent fear of causing offense feels to me as though it's become much more prevalent in the last 10-15 years or so.

**Maledictus**

Ok I realize this is a polarizing topic for everyone, but really, has no one noticed that the OP hasn't posted anything since starting the thread? or that hes cloned this thread three separate times?

I love history to, its fascinating. And I also have strong opinions regarding the civil war and its causes, But I'm not posting them. why? because this is the epitome of an off topic thread. and you guys are just taking the OPs bait by posting in it Please just let the thread die.

EDIT: If someone wants they can create a thread on the OT board called "Civil War Opinions" link to it and continue the Discussion there.

**grizgrin**

Its as if millions of trolled cried out, and then were suddenly silenced...

**JOHIRA**

Maledictus wrote:Ok I realize this is a polarizing topic for everyone, but really, has no one noticed that the OP hasn't posted anything since starting the thread? or that hes cloned this thread three separate times?

I think we all noticed. Personally, I don't care if he's cackling with glee at what a clever little troll he is. If we get an enjoyable conversation out of this, then it doesn't matter. And I'm thoroughly happy with how the modquisition is trying to keep people cool so we can get an enjoyable conversation out of this.