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CT GAMER wrote:So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?

I guess it all depends if you live in NYC or not and if you're a good enough modeler/painter to pull it off.

I can just see that IG rambo character (name?) as a suicide bomber...pretty much because he usually runs out, blows up something big and then dies.

Grey Templar wrote:and there isn't anything to get offended about by the Stars and Bars. the Civil War was over a states rights issue. something that is still talked about today.

This.

I find it interesting that the civil war has been retconned to be all about slavery.

Frazzled wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?

I think that boy would be high on the idiot scale or TFG. Either way - pointing and laughing is an effective cleansing agent in this circumstance.

Agreed, but based upon what has been said here in this thread no one should complain or give me grief for said models.

After all The army I cited does not display any particular flag or slogan historically tied to racism or hate crimes or any real-world faction/group, unlike the confederate army cited in the original post...

Using such a symbol out of context is in poor judgement imho...

It was about slavery. Not JUST about slavery, not even primarily about slavery, but it WAS an issue for a great deal of people during the time.

Regardless, it's still a rather trashy symbol here in the South.

CT GAMER wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?

I think that boy would be high on the idiot scale or TFG. Either way - pointing and laughing is an effective cleansing agent in this circumstance.

Agreed, but based upon what has been said here in this thread no one should complain or give me grief for said models.

After all The army I cited does not display any particular flag or slogan historically tied to racism or hate crimes or any real-world faction/group, unlike the confederate army cited in the original post...

Using such a symbol out of context is in poor judgement imho...

I would if you did that (the burning towers thing - I wouldn't care about the other stuff). Thats tacky, boorish, and daft. A tallarn army without the flags or burning towers, I couldn't care less, but otherwise you're intentionally attempting to get arise out of people and I'd be your huckleberry for just that purpose. In fact, we'd have to go get a laser pointer so we could point and laugh from across the room...

CT GAMER wrote:
Agreed, but based upon what has been said here in this thread no one should complain or give me grief for said models.

After all The army I cited does not display any particular flag or slogan historically tied to racism or hate crimes or any real-world faction/group, unlike the confederate army cited in the original post...

Using such a symbol out of context is in poor judgement imho...

Then by your reasoning the US flag (and any other country for that matter) should never be used because someone, somewhere might have disliked what was done while someone, somewhere, somewhen carried that flag.

Examples: No Japanese flags because of Pearl Harbor. No American flags because of Chogun Ri. No British flags because of the Boston Massacre. on and on and on.

Yes, flags are a symbol but they are a symbol of so much more than any negativity that you care to attribute to them.

It is only through the struggle of humanity to understand our common toils that we, as a species, can grow beyond the need for conflict. Stubborn ignorance and the inability to understand what has come before only guarantees that we will continue to repeat the mistakes of our forefathers. "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it. (Edmund Burke)"

Frazzled wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:So what about a renegade IG army complete with turbans,explosive vests for demo charges, lasguns swapped out for AK-47s and a tournament display board complete with two burning towers made from GW plastic terrain kits?

I think that boy would be high on the idiot scale or TFG. Either way - pointing and laughing is an effective cleansing agent in this circumstance.

Agreed, but based upon what has been said here in this thread no one should complain or give me grief for said models.

After all The army I cited does not display any particular flag or slogan historically tied to racism or hate crimes or any real-world faction/group, unlike the confederate army cited in the original post...

Using such a symbol out of context is in poor judgement imho...

I would if you did that (the burning towers thing - I wouldn't care about the other stuff). Thats tacky, boorish, and daft.

Again, yes I agree, just as tacky boorish and daft as putting a confederate flag on space men from the 41st Millennium...

I'm glad we agree.


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agnosto wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
Agreed, but based upon what has been said here in this thread no one should complain or give me grief for said models.

After all The army I cited does not display any particular flag or slogan historically tied to racism or hate crimes or any real-world faction/group, unlike the confederate army cited in the original post...

Using such a symbol out of context is in poor judgement imho...

Then by your reasoning the US flag (and any other country for that matter) should never be used because someone, somewhere might have disliked what was done while someone, somewhere, somewhen carried that flag.

Examples: No Japanese flags because of Pearl Harbor. No American flags because of Chogun Ri. No British flags because of the Boston Massacre. on and on and on.

Yes, flags are a symbol but they are a symbol of so much more than any negativity that you care to attribute to them.

It is only through the struggle of humanity to understand our common toils that we, as a species, can grow beyond the need for conflict. Stubborn ignorance and the inability to understand what has come before only guarantees that we will continue to repeat the mistakes of our forefathers. "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it. (Edmund Burke)"

Yes I wouldn't put real world flags on space men from the 41st Millenium, especially ones with a documented historical association with slavery, hate crimes, war crimes or similar, and especially if said flag is still in use today as a symbol by hate groups and racists...

If you are making a representation of a historical force (for a museum/display/school project/etc. or for a historical game like FOW, etc.), then it has a context and a purpose, otherwise it comes off as a forced attempt at attention or a passive aggressive attempt to offend...

agnosto wrote:
Examples: No Japanese flags because of Pearl Harbor. No American flags because of Chogun Ri. No British flags because of the Boston Massacre. on and on and on.

Actually, you've stumbled on the CORRECT answer. No real world flags or symbols for a fantasy game. Anything else and your just making a (bad) point.

(exception: imperial German cross -whatever the correct term for the WWI symbol was- just because its cool )


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CT GAMER wrote:
Yes I wouldn't put real world flags on space men from the 41st Millenium, especially ones with a documented historical association with slavery, hate crimes, war crimes or similar, and especially if said flag is still in use today as a symbol by hate groups and racists...

If you are making a representation of a historical force (for a museum/display/school project/etc. or for a historical game like FOW, etc.), then it has a context and a purpose, otherwise it comes off as a forced attempt at attention or a passive aggressive attempt to offend...

CT Gamer has the way of it.

Frazzled wrote:
Actually, you've stumbled on the CORRECT answer. No real world flags or symbols for a fantasy game. Anything else and your just making a (bad) point.

(exception: imperial German cross -whatever the correct term for the WWI symbol was- just because its cool )

You're not allowed any exceptions regardless of coolness!

The point I was trying to make is that there is no reason to be upset about symbols because a symbold can't kill you or hurt you or make you cry. You can make yourself upset over something purely related to the symbol but that's just you attaching an emotional response to an object, kind of like religion.

The last person that was physically present during the civil war died in the 1950s so I doubt the confederate flag will upset anyone who was actually affected by the war. The other example, proposed by CT GAMER, is ludicrous in that it was a recent event that nearly everyone on the planet has a current recollection of.

Don't worry, the little plastic army men aren't going to declare themselves a separate nation from the US and hurt your feelings.

agnosto wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Actually, you've stumbled on the CORRECT answer. No real world flags or symbols for a fantasy game. Anything else and your just making a (bad) point.

(exception: imperial German cross -whatever the correct term for the WWI symbol was- just because its cool )

You're not allowed any exceptions regardless of coolness!

The point I was trying to make is that there is no reason to be upset about symbols because a symbold can't kill you or hurt you or make you cry. You can make yourself upset over something purely related to the symbol but that's just you attaching an emotional response to an object, kind of like religion.

The last person that was physically present during the civil war died in the 1950s so I doubt the confederate flag will upset anyone who was actually affected by the war. The other example, proposed by CT GAMER, is ludicrous in that it was a recent event that nearly everyone on the planet has a current recollection of.

Don't worry, the little plastic army men aren't going to declare themselves a separate nation from the US and hurt your feelings.

Test that theory. Get yourself a confederate flag. Have a friend drop you off in Compton. But first sign this paper saying I can have all your miniatures.

I suppose I'll have to disagree. I'll never create such a force for several reasons (primarily because I'm not a good painter or modeler) but I wouldn't become upset if someone else had one.

In my mind, it's similar to saying the Ultra Marines are Crips and the Blood Angels are Bloods and we shouldn't paint them those colors because of all the terrible things those gangs have done.


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Frazzled wrote:
Test that theory. Get yourself a confederate flag. Have a friend drop you off in Compton. But first sign this paper saying I can have all your miniatures.

We're talking about little army men, not actually becoming one of those malcontents that espouses the ideology behind the symbolism (which would be the only reason that I can think of for actually carrying a flag around with you). On that note, why don't you take an American flag and walk around baghdad.

I think some people read too much into what their little plastic men represent.

I suppose you're going to tell me that Muslims should have no problem with Black Templars and the symbolism that is carried on their little plastic bodies.

agnosto wrote:
.

The last person that was physically present during the civil war died in the 1950s so I doubt the confederate flag will upset anyone who was actually affected by the war. The other example, proposed by CT GAMER, is ludicrous in that it was a recent event that nearly everyone on the planet has a current recollection of.

Don't worry, the little plastic army men aren't going to declare themselves a separate nation from the US and hurt your feelings.

I know people like to fixate on the civl war when this is discussed, but I think the problem is that present day some people use and revere that flag as a symbol to justify hate crimes, prejudice and discrimination.

So while I don't care about the civil war, I do care that racists are curb stomping people while flying it off the back of their pickups or wearing a t-shirt with it on it.
The flag as a symbol has been co-opted by present day racists in the sme way that Hitler co-opted a symbol and twisted it to have a new meaning.

We all studied the civil war in history class, that isn't the issue.

The present day association with racists is a fact, regardless of it's historical origin or context. This if someone knopws that this is the present day association and still chooses to casually display it out of context, I question their motives and level of common sense, sensitivity and maturity...

CT GAMER wrote:

agnosto wrote:
.

The last person that was physically present during the civil war died in the 1950s so I doubt the confederate flag will upset anyone who was actually affected by the war. The other example, proposed by CT GAMER, is ludicrous in that it was a recent event that nearly everyone on the planet has a current recollection of.

Don't worry, the little plastic army men aren't going to declare themselves a separate nation from the US and hurt your feelings.

I know people like to fixate on the civl war when this is discussed, but I think the problem is that present day some people use and revere that flag as a symbol to justify hate crimes, prejudice and discrimination.

So while I don't care about the civil war, I do care that racists are curb stomping people while flying it off the back of their pickups or wearing a t-shirt with it on it.
The flag as a symbol has been co-opted by present day racists in the sme way that Hitler co-opted a symbol and twisted it to have a new meaning.

We all studied the civil war in history class, that isn't the issue.

The present day association with racists is a fact, regardless of it's historical origin or context. This if someone knopws that this is the present day association and still chooses to casually display it out of context, I question their motives and level of common sense, sensitivity and maturity...

Exactly.
The easy solution is the solution fo doing nothing. Don't try to tick people off. Just paint your minis and play the damn game.

FM Ninja 048 wrote:I don't see ant problem with it, it's still the Alabama state flag,

If you feel you might offend somebody switch the colors around, a blue background with red cross.

Actually it's not, are similar and there is no Blue any more, but that is like saying the UK's flag is similar due to it being Red white and blue.

Alabama's current flag:
http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/alabama/flag.htm

and Florida's is in the same vein:
http://www.50states.com/flag/flflag.htm

Mississippi Still has the "Stars and Bars" on it
http://www.50states.com/flag/msflag.htm

CT GAMER wrote:
The present day association with racists is a fact, regardless of it's historical origin or context. This if someone knopws that this is the present day association and still chooses to casually display it out of context, I question their motives and level of common sense, sensitivity and maturity...

The same could be said for the American flag; it's all perspective, audience and venue. I'm not telling anyone to run outside with the confederate flag and shout racist slogans at the top of their lungs.

For the most part, wargammers are fairly educated (at least the group that I've been around have been) and the beauty of a modern, liberal education is that you learn to think for yourself and the sure sign of a mature person is the ability to look beyond the surface of a situation.

My thinking is this and of course you are more than welcome to disagree with my opinion. If someone walked into the FLGS that I frequent and had a well painted, awesomely converted IG army that was modeled and painted (hats and all) like civil war era troops, or even used historical civil-war era models as counts-as, I would have no problem with it. I might even say to this person, "Hey, I've got my Ultramarines, how about I be the Union?". Suddenly, it's no longer uncouth but a futuristic version of a historical wargame. Ever watch Serenity?

On the other hand, if I were to see someone with such an army and they sometimes made racist remarks, I would be less tolerant.

Not to belabor the point but as I mentioned previously, no one seems to have a problem with the usage of the symbolism of the crusades in this game setting. Arguably, the crusades resulted in millions of deaths and that radicals are using to this day as an excuse for their atrocities.

Ghengis Khan killed 40million people but no one seems to have a problem with a themed army related to him...or stalinist russia...or as Frazzled mentioned, WWI (15million).

I don't see anyone picketing GW over the usage of "slaves" in the Skaven armies..isn't slavery terrible? Shouldn't we get all worked up over the concept of someone saying, "It's ok that your army wiped out that 60-man block, they were just slaves."?

It's all about context, take it out of context and it's abhorrant; in context you're a history buff.

agnosto wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:
The present day association with racists is a fact, regardless of it's historical origin or context. This if someone knopws that this is the present day association and still chooses to casually display it out of context, I question their motives and level of common sense, sensitivity and maturity...

The same could be said for the American flag; it's all perspective, audience and venue. I'm not telling anyone to run outside with the confederate flag and shout racist slogans at the top of their lungs.
****Exactly. So why go out of your way to cause a scene. Leave the flags at home.

For the most part, wargammers are fairly educated (at least the group that I've been around have been) and the beauty of a modern, liberal education is that you learn to think for yourself and the sure sign of a mature person is the ability to look beyond the surface of a situation.
***They are? The majority of gamers I've seen haven't graduated high school yet. Many are socially inept.

My thinking is this and of course you are more than welcome to disagree with my opinion. If someone walked into the FLGS that I frequent and had a well painted, awesomely converted IG army that was modeled and painted (hats and all) like civil war era troops, or even used historical civil-war era models as counts-as, I would have no problem with it.
***Thats fine until you show up with little stars and bars. Then its gauche.

I might even say to this person, "Hey, I've got my Ultramarines, how about I be the Union?". Suddenly, it's no longer uncouth but a futuristic version of a historical wargame. Ever watch Serenity?
***They didn't wear blue and grey in Serenity.

Frazzled wrote:
****Exactly. So why go out of your way to cause a scene. Leave the flags at home.

***They are? The majority of gamers I've seen haven't graduated high school yet. Many are socially inept.

***Thats fine until you show up with little stars and bars. Then its gauche.

***They didn't wear blue and grey in Serenity.

Dude, you're a mod, learn how to quote. Lazy...

I'll leave mine at home if you do the same. Considering I don't own any, that's an easy one.

You're hanging out in the wrong places then.

Personal opinion, I don't share yours and you don't share mine; we can agree to disagree.

No but the symbolism was the same "brown coats" and the "alliance" (union), little colonies being told what to do and wanting to do things their own way until big bad brother alliance come knocking with greater numbers.

Anywho, I think we've pretty much run this one into the ground and it's time for me to go hit the gym. Have a good evening all.

agnosto wrote:Anywho, I think we've pretty much run this one into the ground and it's time for me to go hit the gym. Have a good evening all.

Party on gym rat.

the problem I have with using the battle flag in situations like this isn't that I'm offended (my ancestors came here after the Civil War), but that it's historically lazy.

Lee and Picket didn't fight and die for the confederacy. They fought for Virginia. Put the historically appropriate Virginia flag on your army, and you'll be rocking and rolling.

Instead you're inheriting a ton of baggage of what that flag has come to symbolize in the 150 years since the end of the war.

No one should have a problem with it. You are personalizing your army for personal/thematic reasons. Are you making a political statement about slavery (a minor issue)? Or are you simply using a cool scheme?

By minor issue, do you mean now, or during the Civil War?

Not to let this thread digress too much, slavery was to the Civil War much like not wearing a hat and coat in the rain causes one to catch flu, it's not the sole cause, but it doesn't help.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Not to let this thread digress too much, slavery was to the Civil War much like not wearing a hat and coat in the rain causes one to catch flu, it's not the sole cause, but it doesn't help.

The Vice President of the Confederacy disagrees with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone_speech

If you read his explanation of his comments, he states:

"(Slavery was without doubt the occasion of secession; out of it rose the breach of compact, for instance, on the part of several Northern States in refusing to comply with Constitutional obligations as to rendition of fugitives from service, a course betraying total disregard for all constitutional barriers and guarantees.) "

(Emphasis mine).

The absolute thing to remember is that people choose to be offended. Being offended by something is a choice you take, not a reaction you have no part in. And, since people can choose to dislike your army for any number of reasons, you really shouldn't worry about the people who say it 'offends them'.

Before this goes any further let me ask the OP something. Why have you posted this topic on three separate occasions on different forums on dakka?

At first i thought it was innocent enough, maybe you were apprehensive and thought that someone would get offended by your army's rather "unique" historical inspiration. That said, the responses that you got here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/312104.page in your first thread should have told you that no one gave a flying feth how you painted your models, some people, myself included actually thought the idea was pretty cool. that would have been fine except that you posted again here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/325369.page
and now a third time with this thread....

So are you trying to troll us or what? if so its a pretty lame attempt, since, as you've seen most of us aren't the least bit offended by it.

If you're not trolling, then why ask the same questions three times and then not respond when you get answers?

They way I see it, all will be forgiven provided:

a) You explain if asked that the concept is for theme only, and that the attitudes and opinions of your toy soldiers are not those of the person who fights with them, and you are not supportive of the political ideology associated with the emblems and flags displayed (in the same way that a praetorian guard player probably doesn't want to go to Africa and kill a bunch of natives).

b) All your chimeras have been converted into the general lee

I am of the Northern states, and from my perspective it is seen as a symbol of slavery. However, it should be duly noted that slavery was not the only cause of the civil war, nor were all on the side of the confederacy for slavery. Lee was an upstanding gentleman who only wished to fight honorably for his home state.

P.S. Davy Crockett died at the Alamo. The people at the Alamo were illegal immigrants who were using slaves in a slavery free country. Davy Crockett died defending slavery.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.P.S. A main reason that it is seen as offensive is that some supremacist groups in the USA have, at some time or another, used it as the flag of their cause.

Melissia wrote:It was about slavery. Not JUST about slavery, not even primarily about slavery, but it WAS an issue for a great deal of people during the time.

Regardless, it's still a rather trashy symbol here in the South.

First of all the Civil War was not about slavery, but about the rights of the Southern States, many of the southern states were oppossed slavery and wanted to end it. What we people were taught about "The Civil War" is through TV, and that the wrong way in telling or teaching history, but you can have your facts or primary sources incorrect. Most people would relate the south by movies like "Gone with the Wind" which was the antebellum south was only represented the Rich planation owners, 1 percent, wrong view about true south. Now if you want me to offend you i can, Slavery was nothing more than a form of Cheap Labor, Rich eiltest get richer and poor stay poor. A real simple concept that exist to this day.....China anyone. The Conferedate flag is not a trashy symbol, it a symbol of the southern history.

I think Frazzled said it best: it's gauche. It wouldn't offend me, but I'd probably roll my eyes and think the owner was either desperate for attention or trying to make a crass political statement through their toy soldiers.

I think it's fine to reference history in 40k. To evoke it. But to straight out copy it just comes across as silly to me.

Which states were against slavery? If they were, why didn't they end it?

Its was a complex issue, but slaves were a huge part of the economy of the south. Saying that the interest in keeping property wasn't a motivating factor is tremendously naive.

"States rights" is a saying. People don't go to war over sayings. They go to war over money. Either to take somebody else's, or to prevent theirs from being taken.

The civil war was about the balance of power in the country shifting from the agrarian south to the rapidly industrializing north. As political power shifted (look how many presidents were from the south pre-civil war), there was fear that economic power would shift even more rapidly.

There was rising international and domestic opposition to chattel slavery, which meant that if political power shifted too much away from the south, a lot of people would be left with a pretty empty bag.

So, no. The war was not fought over slavery. But slavery was a huge reason for the war. In a war essentially about economic models (capitalism vs. estate system), the key to the southern model is unfree labor of one form or another.