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So in this list I kept it as close to my other 2500 list as possible since that list was pretty solid overall, I felt it would help back up the not-so-great nature of the Manticore. I will make another list with a dragon later since I feel the fantastic model would work just as well with that set of rules without anyone fussing.

Supreme Sorceress - Shadow, Lv.4, Pegasus, Pendant of Khaeleth - 345
Master - Manticore, Deathpiercer, The Other Trickster's Shard, Heavy Armor, Sea Dragon Cloak - 328
Death Hag - Cauldron of Blood, BSB - 225

5x Harpies - 55
25x Spearmen - Full Command, Shields - 190
20x Crossbowmen - Standard, Musician, Shields - 235
20x Crossbowmen - Standard, Musician, Shields - 235

6x Shades - 96
6x Shades - 96
Cold One Chariot - 100
21x Witches - Banner of Murder - 245

War Hydra - 175
War Hydra - 175

Total: 2500

I feel like I tried to get every bit of the army I could in there for the points! I even had to drop the shield from the Master's mundane armor because I was 2 points over.

I figure I can use the Manticore as a character hunter and flank charger. Many people seem to rely on their Ward Saves to keep characters save from Killing Blow (and death in general). With The Other Trickster's Shard it may help take them down that much easier. I've also considered swapping to the Black Dragon Egg for a turn of high toughness infantry killing.

My Skaven friend loves putting his Plague Priest on Furnace at the front of his army, a nasty T5/6 Master on Manticore showing up in his face would make a quick remedy to that and the breath weapon would give another 2d6 against everyone in the unit. Alternatively, I could fly it into his Grey Seer on Bell unit and take out that guy. Either way, that would put me 9 points (+5 for Egg, +4 for Lance) over if I wanted to hang onto The Other Trickster's Shard, though. Another alternative was to simply swap the Deathpiercer for the Whip of Agony. +1 strength, +1 attack, and armor piercing? Woo!

I think that model would work perfect as a dragon as well... just a really, relaly scary manticore . But I love the list as-is! Not too up on dark elf equipment but the unit selections look spot-on scary

Your aren't scared by the lack of a ward on the master? Every army has some form of high S to throw at him, whether it's magic or shooting. What if you ran him with pendant + ToTS? This of course would mean the sorceress needs the talisman of preservation, so over all it's a net gain of about 20 points. I'm just a little shy of sending out that many points without a ward save.

I like the black dragon egg idea, and I've been thinking of trying it on my supreme sorceress, she's usually bunkered in with the RXBs, I could just move her forward on a turn, lay the template on a unit that's in front of my RXBs, and make them stay there for the next turn to take another round of shooting.

RiTides wrote:I think that model would work perfect as a dragon as well... just a really, really scary manticore. But I love the list as-is! Not too up on dark elf equipment but the unit selections look spot-on scary.

Pendant of Khaeleth: Reverse Ward Save based on strength you're hitting me with.
Deathpiercer: Lance with Killing Blow
Whip of Agony: S5, +1 attack, Armor Piercing, One-handed
Black Dragon Egg: One use only, lasts one turn. Makes user T6 and grants them a S4 breath weapon. If a unit takes a wound from this breath attack it must pass a leadership test at -3 to charge next turn.
The Other Trickster's Shard: Models in base contact must re-roll successful ward saves (BRB item).

greenbay924 wrote:Your aren't scared by the lack of a ward on the master? Every army has some form of high S to throw at him, whether it's magic or shooting. What if you ran him with pendant + ToTS? This of course would mean the sorceress needs the talisman of preservation, so over all it's a net gain of about 20 points. I'm just a little shy of sending out that many points without a ward save.

Yeah, I agree sending him out without a Ward Save is rather risky. Pendant + ToTS and Lance would certainly be viable and it's not like a permanent 4+ ward on the Sorceress would be a bad thing. I just don't know where I can steal the points from without weakening or removing a unit.

greenbay924 wrote:I like the black dragon egg idea, and I've been thinking of trying it on my supreme sorceress, she's usually bunkered in with the RXBs, I could just move her forward on a turn, lay the template on a unit that's in front of my RXBs, and make them stay there for the next turn to take another round of shooting.

That could definitely be a fun tactic for an infantry unit that looks like it's getting ready to charge your crossbowmen! I wouldn't suggest you use it against cavalry, though, since you'll want to be out of their standard movement range to get your Stand and Shoot reaction if they pass the test.

What's the war machine saturation like in your area? Maybe dropping a unit of shades, adding XHW and 2 more shades to the other unit could free up enough points?

I WANT THAT MANTICORE MODEL!

Kirbinator wrote:

greenbay924 wrote:Your aren't scared by the lack of a ward on the master? Every army has some form of high S to throw at him, whether it's magic or shooting. What if you ran him with pendant + ToTS? This of course would mean the sorceress needs the talisman of preservation, so over all it's a net gain of about 20 points. I'm just a little shy of sending out that many points without a ward save.

Yeah, I agree sending him out without a Ward Save is rather risky. Pendant + ToTS and Lance would certainly be viable and it's not like a permanent 4+ ward on the Sorceress would be a bad thing. I just don't know where I can steal the points from without weakening or removing a unit.

I have to agree, all it takes is one good shot from a cannon... Dropping a crossbowman from each unit should free you up the points for this change, and tbh, 2 shots from each unit when you've got another 38 (presuming you're fielding them 2x10) isn't much of a drastic change.

Overall though your list is very good

I personally would get rid of the Harpies as they have done next to nothing for me this edition. That gives you 55 points to play around with (or 35 after you mess with the characters gear). Overall, very solid list.

I like the idea of giving your master a ward save and the black dragon egg would be a trick to have up your sleeve. I would probably just drop a shade from each unit to get the points and if you have enough points give them an extra hand weapon. I understand the logic of dropping the harpies too, but I just like the thought of harpies so I wouldn't drop them.

boogeyman wrote:I like the idea of giving your master a ward save and the black dragon egg would be a trick to have up your sleeve.

Well he can't take both, only 50pts worth of magic and the Egg is 30.

I need to dig out my books. That is a shame. I think I would rather have the ward save. Granted everyone will probable have that tricky shard, but I would still want my chance at the ward save. Maybe there is another item that can give you a boost to attacks for RnF? Then again 80 xbows should thin down the ranks anyway.

Oddly, or not oddly, I see very few people taking The Other Trickster's Shard except for specific character hunters. It's a pretty particular item that doesn't help in most cases unless you know for certain you'll be facing something with a reliable ward save. I will play with the list a bit more and see what comes up.

I say your best bet is pendant + enchanted shield. This will give him a respectable 1+ AS (after mundane add ons + mount) and a reverse ward for those army ganking attacks. The manticore should be able to put out plenty of offense itself, a couple extra attacks from the master won't make too much of a difference. Giving him a beastmaster's scourge, or a lance should work fine.

So something like

Master - manticore, pendnat of khaeleth, enchanted shield, beastmaster's scourge, sea dragon cloak, heavy armor - 346 pts.

I forget the manticore load out, but I'm going to assume it's 5 S5 attacks? Add on 4 S4 attacks with AP from the master plus thunderstomp, and it's a pretty mobile killer.

Though for comparison's sake, consider this - for almost the same points cost (4 points higher) you can have 2 hydras, whose killing power is obviously much greater :( (yes I know, you already have two in the list). Though, being able to fly can mean some pretty far charges, something the hydra suffers from (due to no swiftstride).

Hydras don't have swift stride?

Kilgore19d wrote:Hydras don't have swift stride?

AFAIK there is no monster with swiftstride that doesn't also fly. And there are certainly ones faster than the hydra (shaggoth = M7, vermin lord = M8, kipper = M10) ...

OT: Yea for manticores! I agree with your initial feeling, that the list is so uber it can support the expensive toy that is the manticore. Seeing double hydras on the table still makes me vomit a little in my mouth, so the manti provides a little bit of refreshment.

- Salvage

greenbay924 wrote:I say your best bet is pendant + enchanted shield. This will give him a respectable 1+ AS (after mundane add ons + mount) and a reverse ward for those army ganking attacks. The manticore should be able to put out plenty of offense itself, a couple extra attacks from the master won't make too much of a difference. Giving him a beastmaster's scourge, or a lance should work fine.

That's certainly a valid option, but I feel the 2+ armor in combat, 1+ vs. ranged from plain ol' mundane armor is enough since we can't get better than a 1+ save. Anything that will wreck 2+ armor tends to be shut down by the Pendant.

Kilgore19d wrote:Hydras don't have swift stride?

I'm not seeing anywhere in the rulebook that monsters get it by default. Was it in the errata?

Boss Salvage wrote:Seeing double hydras on the table still makes me vomit a little in my mouth, so the manti provides a little bit of refreshment.

Do you really feel double Hydras are that bad in 8th edition and at 2500 points? I mean, one of the big dread spells can clear it from the table in one go as can one or two cannons, particularly of the flaming variety. I really think all this Hydra hate is a carryover from 7th when the only good way to get rid of one was via a flaming cannon and they could tie up entire units on their own. Now any army has access to ways to either kill them with a bit of effort or at least pin them down or make them lose combat resolution.

I don't know what unit is beating them on combat res, unless it's very heavily armored cav. Hydras kick out 13 attacks (including handlers) and thunderstomp. That's ignoring the breath weapon too...

I've only come close to beating a hydra with infantry on combat res once, and it has to fluff pretty hard.

Yeah, I hardly lose combat with a hydra, unless I make a mistake and send him in against elite/strong infantry, in which case they usually just kill it before it's time to calculate combat res. I agree with Kirb, dual hydra isn't the power house it once was, partly because there's a 10 point banner that cuts their survivability in half. There's hardly a game where my hydras live to the end, usually one or both die to something. Like my last game, one was evaporated by a unit of 6 minos with a doombull.

Red_Zeke wrote:I don't know what unit is beating them on combat res, unless it's very heavily armored cav. Hydras kick out 13 attacks (including handlers) and thunderstomp. That's ignoring the breath weapon too...

I've only come close to beating a hydra with infantry on combat res once, and it has to fluff pretty hard.

I lost a hydra to a single spirit host in my last game...worst luck ever.

I agree about taking 2 hydras not being what it was in 7th... I feel the same way about treemen for my woodies. Taking 2 is almost a must now, and somtimes I'll take 3 (one as an ancient)! Although most of the time, at least 1 or 2 don't make it to the enemy even then... what with magical flaming cannonballs, flaming spells, and initiative based spells whizzing around everywhere.

Another thing I learned from this thread... shaggoths don't get swiftstride (sadface). That's OK, they're still big and scary

So this thread isn't quite a week dead, ok to bring back right?

What do you think of this slightly altered list? Gave the 4+ ward to Sorceress, Pendant to the Manticore rider, and kept the Harpies for a little screening or harassment depending on the opponent.

Supreme Sorceress - Shadow, Lv.4, Pegasus, Talisman of Preservation - 355
Master - Manticore, Pendant of Khaeleth, The Other Trickster's Shard, Lance, Full Mundane - 344
Death Hag - Cauldron of Blood, BSB - 225

5x Harpies - 55
25x Spearmen - Musician, Standard, Shields - 184
20x Crossbowmen - Musician, Shields - 225
20x Crossbowmen - Musician, Shields - 225

6x Shades - 96
6x Shades - 96
Cold One Chariot - 100
21x Witches - Banner of Murder - 245

War Hydra - 175
War Hydra - 175

Total: 2500

I really like it... I have harpie envy

Well, you could come out of those woods and join the true elves.