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I just went to a local 40K tournament using a format of 1850 points this past weekend. I played against a Space Wolf player who had a typed up army list with point value on the side of each unit. He did not break any of the point down and I assumed it was correct. I lost the first game against him. I was paired down and won my 2nd game.

During the break between game 2 and game 3 I saw his list and added up the points. He didn't have a final tally of his points and when I added them up his list was at 1892 pts. I mentioned this to the TO. The TO added up his points, just from his sheet, and confirmed that it was definitely 1892 points.

When the player came back the TO pulled him aside and they worked out the points. After the first 3 or 4 units they quit tallying up since the points he wrote on the side of each unit were mostly incorrect and undervalued. I've never encountered a situation like this and the TO asked me what my opinion should be.

What do you guys think?

I told the TO that player should take losses on his first 2 game and can continue to play game 3. Is that fair to the players he beat? I may be biased since I was one of those players.

In the end the TO gave him losses on his first 2 games and the player declined to play game 3 and left.

The outcome you describe is satisfactory.

The right thing happened.

The guy either needs to learn to count or stop cheating.

I really couldn't think of a better outcome.

Allowing him to keep playing was actually a pretty fair move, considering that he had an rather unfair advantage in his first two games.

Sounds fair to me. Though I woudn't have let him play the third game.

This is a far more satisfactory solution that what I generally see happen in these situations.

That sounds like the best resolution possible.

I think that's a fair outcome. As long as Mr. extra points is out of contention, all good. Any plans to keep this from happening again. Perhaps a standard format for lists?

The TO commented to me later that he will probably require everyone to have their lists created via Army Builder. He will allow players to use his Army Builder before the tournament to print out their list.

I know Army Builder is not 100% accurate but it is the best alternative at this time. Otherwise he will have to manually verify each player's list.

To be honest, that was way to light. I would have DQ'd the player right there. I would have adjusted games to award wins to his previous two opponents.

Clearly the player was TRYING to cheat, as he left once caught.

Everyone can make mistakes...had he made a mistake that overcosted something...thats one thing...I have know people to forget to every deploy whole units. But to undercost stuff, and by 40+ points, no way.

The player would have the opportunity to play in the next tournament, but his list and play would be scrutinized more heavily.

My $0.02 as a TO.

I know TOs that have begun requiring lists in advance of the tourney because there's so much list shenanigans that goes on.

I kind of think its a good idea.

I think it was a great outcome. The flip side, it could have really benefited you- as for your second game you (presumably) would have gone up against a 1-loss opponent, when in fact you would later be credited with a win for the first round.

But there's nothing you can really do about that without a time machine . Great resolution, and imho this is what should happen every time.

Also a nice gesture to let him continue to play the third round (although with losses for the first two) imho.

I'd say, was a satisfactory solution.

Only thing I see if it would of been more harsh, was if the player was known for this stuff. The yeah, DQ him, and maybe ban him for a couple of tourneys at that store.

But if not a known cheat, or just an unknown player, solution was the best result, giving him the benifit of the doubt of just an honest mistake.

Good solution, but the guy was clearly cheating.

1 point over by a miscalculation is one thing, over 40 is another!

Atleast he wasnt drunk and didnt try to take off his pants during the tournament

If it was an honest mistake so be it.

Cheating on purpose is sad.

liam0404 wrote:Good solution, but the guy was clearly cheating.

1 point over by a miscalculation is one thing, over 40 is another!

Not necessarily. Depends on whats involved. Are you adjusting a 1750 or 2000pt list to 1850 and meant to reduce your 3x2 landspeeder squadrons to 1x2 and 2x1 squadrons but accidentally only reduced one squadron? Forget to swap a Rhino for a Razorback?

42pts is like one Pfist terminator off in a SW list, it's not hard to see where such a mistake may have been made when individual models can cost so much.

That gap isn't unreasonable for an error.


Likewise, leaving afterward, while potentially suspicious, may or may not be indicative of mal-intent. He may have been very embarassed, or feeling mad at himself for doing something stupid, and wouldn't have enjoyed the rest of the day as a result.



That said, he could just be a cheating git that got butthurt when caught. But the solution the TO offered was amicable, no big harm was caused, and there's a wealth of reasons for why what happened could have happened.

captkurt wrote:

Clearly the player was TRYING to cheat, as he left once caught.

Or he might have been embarrassed. Our felt really bad. etc., etc.

Your statement is nothing but assumption.

However I think it sounds like it was fairly handled.

Vaktathi wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Good solution, but the guy was clearly cheating.

1 point over by a miscalculation is one thing, over 40 is another!

Not necessarily. Depends on whats involved. Are you adjusting a 1750 or 2000pt list to 1850 and meant to reduce your 3x2 landspeeder squadrons to 1x2 and 2x1 squadrons but accidentally only reduced one squadron? Forget to swap a Rhino for a Razorback?

42pts is like one Pfist terminator off in a SW list, it's not hard to see where such a mistake may have been made when individual models can cost so much.

That gap isn't unreasonable for an error.

Normally, I'd agree, but for this:

inquisitor_bob wrote:
When the player came back the TO pulled him aside and they worked out the points. After the first 3 or 4 units they quit tallying up since the points he wrote on the side of each unit were mostly incorrect and undervalued.

Makes me believe it was most likely intentional(or done entirely by attempted memory, which is another can of worms). 1 or 2 units off a couple points that add up to 42 pts or so is one thing. Every single unit? Someone's probably trying to pull one over(or legitimately can't do math).

Agreed... and for a tournament, you just can't be over. Especially by 40 points!

Pull a Tor from IVC and throw him threw a window

if you know the rules well enough to beat people in tournament play, then you can add up a correct army list.

40 points is an advantage, but it's not a huge advantage and in many cases shouldn't be a deal-breaker. handing him two losses is fine and probably a little more lenient than i would have been.

I have seen it happen, and the resolution above seems the best.

However, it does skew the final results, based on mismached pairings after Game 1 and 2.

What a putz. Get a calculator. I hate dweebs that do that.

5 pts fine. 10 points....getting ridonkculous.

40+ points.....Granny Git your Gun!!!

Monster Rain wrote:I really couldn't think of a better outcome.

Allowing him to keep playing was actually a pretty fair move, considering that he had an rather unfair advantage in his first two games.

Fair enough I'd say too. if one could prove that he's done it intentionally, then its bounced out of the tournment. I know I have in the past misadded crap and brought it to league attention and just suggested and taken the loss.

I think it was a good solution.

It's always hard to read intent, but that many errors to that great an extent shows a general problem regardless of intent.

Sometimes you make mistakes. I had one local tourney where I accidentally bought 2 wolf guards (I missed the section that said you had to have a minimum of 3) It was my first time playing wolves in a tourney. But it wasn't too big a mistake, someone had pointed the mistake out to me after the first round (which I had lost to some well played demons). The TO let me drop some grey hunters to make room for a 3rd wolf guard (who had no squad to lead, so I had a very weak lone wolf w/o the special killpoint rule). I went on to get 4th or 5th overall (out of 12 people). I still got the Comp prize despite the early snafu, (probably because I was playing SW and not using thunderwolf cavalry or long fangs).

It does get a little hairy when you involve prizes and people's money. The atmosphere at the tourney might have been different if I had actually managed to beat the chaos demons player in the first round of that tournament. You just gotta try and keep a positive outlook and remember it is just a game.

captkurt wrote:To be honest, that was way to light. I would have DQ'd the player right there. I would have adjusted games to award wins to his previous two opponents.

Clearly the player was TRYING to cheat, as he left once caught.

Everyone can make mistakes...had he made a mistake that overcosted something...thats one thing...I have know people to forget to every deploy whole units. But to undercost stuff, and by 40+ points, no way.

The player would have the opportunity to play in the next tournament, but his list and play would be scrutinized more heavily.

My $0.02 as a TO.

I agree. I mean if I'd made a mistake I'd accept my 2 losses (my fault) but probably play the last game as I want to play games (why else go to a tournament?) The fact that he left would make me more suspicious (circumstantial I admit) and also his opponents should be awarded victories.

Honestly it would depend on the number of players, if there was going to be a bye round because we DQ'ed him then I'd just let him play his third game on the last ranked table.

If there was already a odd number of players then I would automatically assign him the bye that round and problem solved.

This is probably the only solution.

The onus for the problem though should have been on the TO, who should have at least added up the units, or at least gone over the points totals before play began...particularly with no points total tallied for the army on the sheet to begin with.


I, for one, dislike Army Builder. It can be just as blatantly wrong as anything else. I always type my lists up in Excel, with points totals per unit/selection/upgrade next to each and a running total to the side.

I think the outcome you described was more than fair for the cheating player. I do however think the two players whom he played against in the first two rounds should have been given at least draws if not wins for those games.

Another problem I see here is that the TO did not check the lists. If it isn't possible to do so before the tournament, the TO should check all the players lists during the first round.