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Been theorycrafting with the new dark eldar codex, and I could use some clarification on the rules for deep striking raiders and ravagers;

-Does a fast skimmer count as moving 6 in, 12 in, or >12 in when it deep strikes?
-If it counts as 6 in, can it still fire all of its weapons, including its occupants if it is open topped? If it counts as moving 12 in, can it still fire one weapon, and if so can a ravager fire all of its weapons because of its special rule? (It can fire all weapons at cruising speed)
-Can a unit embarked on a raider disembark the turn that the raider has been deployed via deep strike? Can they assault? (Instinctively I'd say no but I am curious because if you give a raider retro fire jets it specifically says that units cannot disembark, but if you have Duke Sliscus it says that raiders can deep strike and it doesn't make a clarification about disembarking troops)

Thanks!
-Jeff

michelj wrote:Been theorycrafting with the new dark eldar codex, and I could use some clarification on the rules for deep striking raiders and ravagers;

-Does a fast skimmer count as moving 6 in, 12 in, or >12 in when it deep strikes?

Cruising speed. Regardless of what kind of vehicle it is, it moves at cruising speed.

michelj wrote:-If it counts as 6 in, can it still fire all of its weapons, including its occupants if it is open topped? If it counts as moving 12 in, can it still fire one weapon, and if so can a ravager fire all of its weapons because of its special rule? (It can fire all weapons at cruising speed)

Whatever it (or its passengers) would be able to fire at Cruising Speed. In short, 1 weapon and all defensive weapons, with no passengers firing. And, I would imagine that the Ravager would be able to fire all of its lances/disintegrators.

michelj wrote:-Can a unit embarked on a raider disembark the turn that the raider has been deployed via deep strike? Can they assault?

No and no.

Ravagers can fire all their weapons after deepstriking.

And yes, cruising speed = 1 regular + all defensive - yet the Ravager and other heavy choices have special rules in the codex.

puma713 wrote:

michelj wrote:-Can a unit embarked on a raider disembark the turn that the raider has been deployed via deep strike? Can they assault?

No and no.

Yes and No.

"these units may not move any further other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle" P95

"however these units may not launch an assault." P95

Scott-S6 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

michelj wrote:-Can a unit embarked on a raider disembark the turn that the raider has been deployed via deep strike? Can they assault?

No and no.

Yes and No.

"these units may not move any further other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle" P95

"however these units may not launch an assault." P95

Pg. 95 of which book?

puma713 wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

michelj wrote:-Can a unit embarked on a raider disembark the turn that the raider has been deployed via deep strike? Can they assault?

No and no.

Yes and No.

"these units may not move any further other than to disembark from a deep striking transport vehicle" P95

"however these units may not launch an assault." P95

Pg. 95 of which book?

Probably the BRB. Not all the rules are in everyones codex's after all.

Little AoBR book or the fullsize book.

The page numbers for rules are the same in both.

The old Raiders didn't let you disembark after Deepstrike, do the new one allow it?

As I said before. . .

No and no.

Raiders cannot deep strike and disembark troops. pg. 63, Dark Eldar Codex.

However, if you take Duke Sliscus, all your raiders get the Deep Strike ability and then yes, you'd be able to.

So if I took Duke Sliscus and deployed a raider via deep strike, the squad inside can disembark that turn. Can they shoot? But they still can't charge even though the raider is open topped? Thanks,
-Jeff

If you give them Retrofire Jets, yes they can deep strike, but you can't disembark, per Retrofire Jets rules, pg. 63 Dark Eldar Codex. I'm assuming the Retrofire Jets special rule supercedes the Deepstrike rule in BRB that says you can disembark but not move anymore then that.

Edit: I think thats right, ya.

I'm not aware of any rules that prohibit general firing on the turn you disembark from a vehicle. You are considered to have moved, however, and that will affect heavy and rapid fire weapons.

**Edit** And the rule that lets you assault out of an open-topped vehicle doesn't exempt you from the rule that prohibits assaults when you deep strike. So no assaulting out of a deep striking raider.

Ignore, I can't read.

puma713 wrote:As I said before. . .

No and no.

Raiders cannot deep strike and disembark troops. pg. 63, Dark Eldar Codex.

However, if you take Duke Sliscus, all your raiders get the Deep Strike ability and then yes, you'd be able to.

How does Duke Sliscus stop you from entering your deepstrike at cruising speed, which disallows all crew from firing/disembarking?

Magnalon wrote:
How does Duke Sliscus stop you from entering your deepstrike at cruising speed, which disallows all crew from firing/disembarking?

Because you can disembark from a vehicle moving at cruising speed?

The reason that you can't disembark from raiders normally is because the Retrofire jets specifically mention that you cannot disembark after deep striking. Duke Sliscus merely gives them the ability to deep strike, but makes no mention of disembarking or retrofire jets. Hence, you can disembark after you deep strike.

he doesn't, however cruising speed doesn't stop you from getting out of transports. They dont need retrofire jets if you have the Duke

It doesnt, however the Dukes ability does not restrict you from disembarking in the sme way the Raider upgrade does.

Oh ok. Since it's not an assault vehicle, they can't assault, but a squad of Trueborn could get out and fire assault weapons? Sounds fun.

Nothing to do with not being an assault vehicle, you are instead prohibited from assaulting from a deepstriking vehicle regardless of the type of vehicle. They add an EXTRA restriction for the normal upgrade where you cant even disembark, which is something you CAN do normally.

[in fact without the DS prohibition they could assault, as the vehicles are open topped]

Yes, truborn could get out and fire with assault or rapid fire weapons, just as any other unit could, but ONLY when using the Dukes special upgrade which ignores the Retrojets restrictions.

I agree, the Duke would allow you to Deep Strike and immediately disembark the passengers so they can shoot.

With that said, I think that army would be absolutely horrible. You get very little benefit for Deep Striking this way over rolling on normally from Reserves and you stand a very real chance of losing one or more Raiders to Deep Strike mishap considering their sizable model footprint. And if you're trying to Deep Strike close enough to get out and rapid fire then you're definitely close enough to start losing units to mishaps...especially if you're trying to saturate an area with a few Deep Striking Raiders.

Does it let Venoms DS? They could feasibly drop in, disembark, blaster / etc a vehicle from behind, termicide style.

One day i didnt bring my precious^H^H^H^H^H^H DE codex in with me...gah

nosferatu1001 wrote:Does it let Venoms DS? They could feasibly drop in, disembark, blaster / etc a vehicle from behind, termicide style.

One day i didnt bring my precious^H^H^H^H^H^H DE codex in with me...gah

Yep, Raiders, Ravagers and Venoms.

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you not risk the mishap table because raiders are vehicles and everything just gets out of their way? Or is that a special rule for drop pods?

It seems silly to me that if an open topped vehicle moves at cruising speed and the passengers stay on board, they cannot shoot, but if an open topped vehicle moves at cruising speed and the passengers disembark, they can shoot... and assault. So apparently, shooting from a vehicle moving at cruising speed is too difficult for the denizens of the 41st millennium, but if they decide to jump off and assault as well, it somehow makes shooting possible. I guess it makes sense, since once they are off the vehicle its easier for them to aim, but it still always seemed weird to me...
-Jeff

Special rule for drop pods and spore pods only - and you get out of THEIR way, not the other way around.

It's a balance thing, mainly.

michelj wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you not risk the mishap table because raiders are vehicles and everything just gets out of their way? Or is that a special rule for drop pods?

Well, actually, the pod stops short if it scatters onto enemy models instead of units moving out of it's way........................... And yes, it's a special rule for drop pods.

michelj wrote:It seems silly to me that if an open topped vehicle moves at cruising speed and the passengers stay on board, they cannot shoot, but if an open topped vehicle moves at cruising speed and the passengers disembark, they can shoot... and assault. So apparently, shooting from a vehicle moving at cruising speed is too difficult for the denizens of the 41st millennium, but if they decide to jump off and assault as well, it somehow makes shooting possible. I guess it makes sense, since once they are off the vehicle its easier for them to aim, but it still always seemed weird to me...
-Jeff

It is, as with all things in 40K Rules, an abstraction.

Your Vehicle moving a Cruising Speed is not just rocketing forward at full throttle then slamming on the brakes(while your unit is embarked anyways); but it would be too difficult to keep track of how fast each vehicle had moved in the previous turn, and then checking to see what movement speeds are available in this turn(Stationary last means stationary or Combat this, Combat last means Stationary, Combat or Cruising this, Cruising Last means Combat, Cruising, or Flat out this, etc) So instead the rules somewhat assume that when you are moving at cruising and your unit remains embarked the vehicle is still moving at cuising and the unit cannot fire. If you vehicle moved at cruising and your unit diembarks, the vehicle slowed down enough at the end of the move for the unit to get out, that slowing down lets the unit fire as they disembark(and if the vehicle is open-topped they are firing as they Leap over the sides and are charging at the enemy).

As for the whole Firing while moving fast; look at the difference between riding in a van(closed top) and riding in the bed of a pick-up truck(open topped) When traveling slow you can stand up in either and move around without much problem, you get above about 15 MPH and all of a sudden you cannot stand nor move so well in the van, and you just might(or rather probably) fall out of the pick-up.

Hi Jeff,

I don't play Dark Eldar, but a lot of the questions you have are actually answered in the BRB.

michelj wrote:
-Does a fast skimmer count as moving 6 in, 12 in, or >12 in when it deep strikes?

All vehicles arriving from Deep Strike count as moving at Cruising Speed.

michelj wrote:-If it counts as 6 in, can it still fire all of its weapons, including its occupants if it is open topped? If it counts as moving 12 in, can it still fire one weapon, and if so can a ravager fire all of its weapons because of its special rule? (It can fire all weapons at cruising speed)

Since it counts as having moved at Cruising Speed, like all Fast Vehicles, they can fire one weapon normally. If the Dark Eldar codex allows them to fire more, then the codex rule takes precedence over the rule in the BRB.

michelj wrote:-Can a unit embarked on a raider disembark the turn that the raider has been deployed via deep strike? Can they assault? (Instinctively I'd say no but I am curious because if you give a raider retro fire jets it specifically says that units cannot disembark, but if you have Duke Sliscus it says that raiders can deep strike and it doesn't make a clarification about disembarking troops)

Any unit can disembark from any vehicle, provided that the vehicle did not move faster than Cruising Speed. However, if the vehicle had arrived via Deep Strike, regardless if the vehicle is Open-topped, an Assault Vehicle or neither, disembarked models can not assault, unless there is a Codex rule that supersedes this restriction. That being said, your initial instincts were correct. I don't know what Retro Jets or Duke Sliscus confers to your list, but if it doesn't say anything specific regarding a situation where rules in a Codex contradict the rules in the BRB, I would presume that unless it specifically says something is allowed (by a rule in a codex), then assume that the original BRB rule takes effect.

Hope that helps. Good luck!

Deepstriking a Raider doesn't seem that great an option, at least not compared to a Landraider. *cough* You have fast vehicles with long range weapons, no real need other than if you're playing defensively.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It's a balance thing, mainly.

This.

michelj wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you not risk the mishap table because raiders are vehicles and everything just gets out of their way? Or is that a special rule for drop pods?

It seems silly to me that if an open topped vehicle moves at cruising speed and the passengers stay on board, they cannot shoot, but if an open topped vehicle moves at cruising speed and the passengers disembark, they can shoot... and assault. So apparently, shooting from a vehicle moving at cruising speed is too difficult for the denizens of the 41st millennium, but if they decide to jump off and assault as well, it somehow makes shooting possible. I guess it makes sense, since once they are off the vehicle its easier for them to aim, but it still always seemed weird to me...
-Jeff

IIRC, you can fire one main weapon and all defensive weapons when moving at cruising speed. So, as long as the embarked passengers weapons are S 4 or less, they can shoot. And, open-topped vehicles dont have fire points, so everybody can shoot. So, a Deep Striking Raider can shoot its Dark Lance, and all passengers with Splinter Rifles/Cannons can shoot as well.

I think.