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So I was planning out what I would spend my money on for my first 40k army, the Codex SM.

I have a few assault marines (5), and I was looking into the Vanguard Veteran Squad. Now, I look at the math, and it seem that that are just MORE expensive Assault Marines that can have a few special weapons. Which is cool. In fact, most of my feelings towards them are the thought that I could make a whole squad of thunder hammer wielding jump packs.

So, as I have never played them, whats is your opinion on these guys vs their Assault Marine counter parts?

They guard this. They can't possibly be any good.

Check this thread http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327098.page

Which to take? Right now almost eveyrone would tell you Assault marines - far cheaper and you'd get more of them if you balance the points out. I personally take Vanguard for that extra amount of attacks, but only ever 5. 10 is overpriced and you can easily achieve that with Assault Marines.
Do not be fooled by the special weapons - 15pts each makes them almost not worth having.

Assault marines are solid, but tactical squads in rhinos are equally good, if not better, and the tactical squads are scoring units. If your not playing a super competitive game, so ahead and take either, the vanguard are a big points sink.

On that note, how do you feel about bike squads? I have 3 hours before I loose an eBay auction for a bunch and I'm not sure I want to win.

Bike squads are good but the models are expensive. Go for it.

Would you say worth $100 for 12 as opposed to an Assault Squad?

Or are we talking points expensive here?

Unless you're going BA, neither are very good.

$8/bike is a pretty good deal... if you plan on running a biker list, or converting some up for a bike command squad, I'd go for it.

legomojo wrote:So I was planning out what I would spend my money on for my first 40k army, the Codex SM.

I have a few assault marines (5), and I was looking into the Vanguard Veteran Squad. Now, I look at the math, and it seem that that are just MORE expensive Assault Marines that can have a few special weapons. Which is cool. In fact, most of my feelings towards them are the thought that I could make a whole squad of thunder hammer wielding jump packs.

So, as I have never played them, whats is your opinion on these guys vs their Assault Marine counter parts?

well if those are the only two options.... I dont know. I suppose the van guard because, even though they're over costed, they can be pretty stompy if you give them good war gear. the problem with them is not their battlefield effectiveness. the normal assault marines will bounce off alot of targets. your best assault unit in the codex is assault terminators. thats really where, imo, you should be looking in order to inflict assaulty death on your enemies.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

legomojo wrote:So I was planning out what I would spend my money on for my first 40k army, the Codex SM.

I have a few assault marines (5), and I was looking into the Vanguard Veteran Squad. Now, I look at the math, and it seem that that are just MORE expensive Assault Marines that can have a few special weapons. Which is cool. In fact, most of my feelings towards them are the thought that I could make a whole squad of thunder hammer wielding jump packs.

So, as I have never played them, whats is your opinion on these guys vs their Assault Marine counter parts?

well if those are the only two options.... I dont know. I suppose the van guard because, even though they're over costed, they can be pretty stompy if you give them good war gear. the problem with them is not their battlefield effectiveness. the normal assault marines will bounce off alot of targets. your best assault unit in the codex is assault terminators. thats really where, imo, you should be looking in order to inflict assaulty death on your enemies.

And i suppose they, naturally coming with Thunder Hammers, will go great with my Vulkan look a like.

I originally planned a Vanguard squad for my Salamanders with 5 guys with thunder hammers to ride around with Vulkan in a Land Raider. I scratched the idea when I saw the points cost.

legomojo wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

legomojo wrote:So I was planning out what I would spend my money on for my first 40k army, the Codex SM.

I have a few assault marines (5), and I was looking into the Vanguard Veteran Squad. Now, I look at the math, and it seem that that are just MORE expensive Assault Marines that can have a few special weapons. Which is cool. In fact, most of my feelings towards them are the thought that I could make a whole squad of thunder hammer wielding jump packs.

So, as I have never played them, whats is your opinion on these guys vs their Assault Marine counter parts?

well if those are the only two options.... I dont know. I suppose the van guard because, even though they're over costed, they can be pretty stompy if you give them good war gear. the problem with them is not their battlefield effectiveness. the normal assault marines will bounce off alot of targets. your best assault unit in the codex is assault terminators. thats really where, imo, you should be looking in order to inflict assaulty death on your enemies.

And i suppose they, naturally coming with Thunder Hammers, will go great with my Vulkan look a like.

they will indeed. I advocate a few lightning claws in with the mix but I admit I'm in the minority here. alot of players just go all thunder hammers.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

legomojo wrote:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:

legomojo wrote:So I was planning out what I would spend my money on for my first 40k army, the Codex SM.

I have a few assault marines (5), and I was looking into the Vanguard Veteran Squad. Now, I look at the math, and it seem that that are just MORE expensive Assault Marines that can have a few special weapons. Which is cool. In fact, most of my feelings towards them are the thought that I could make a whole squad of thunder hammer wielding jump packs.

So, as I have never played them, whats is your opinion on these guys vs their Assault Marine counter parts?

well if those are the only two options.... I dont know. I suppose the van guard because, even though they're over costed, they can be pretty stompy if you give them good war gear. the problem with them is not their battlefield effectiveness. the normal assault marines will bounce off alot of targets. your best assault unit in the codex is assault terminators. thats really where, imo, you should be looking in order to inflict assaulty death on your enemies.

And i suppose they, naturally coming with Thunder Hammers, will go great with my Vulkan look a like.

they will indeed. I advocate a few lightning claws in with the mix but I admit I'm in the minority here. alot of players just go all thunder hammers.

Why Lightning Claws? More attacks, but less likely to hit.... more likely to wound?

because of the higher initiative. striking at initiative 4 improves the survivability of the squad by eliminating initiative 3 2 and 1 models before they can even swing. also it gauruntees that you get to swing against initiative 4 models, whether they hurt you back or not. even though if you just do the odds the thunder hammer looks stronger vs meqs, because the math of hit-wound-save doesnt factor in the initiative differences between the two weapons, it doesnt tell the whole story.

vs. toughness 3 models the lightning claws are actually stronger, since wounding on 3s with rerolls is better than wounding on 2s and the lightning claws have more attacks.

there are some situations where the above 2 reasons come together in a way that doesnt help the guy with all thunder hammers at all. vs a guard squad or an ork mob for instance. you dont need or even want thunder hammers in those situations - you want to take advantage of the marine's higher initiative with the lightning claw's extra attacks. the thunder hammers are actually a liability in that fight.

the last reason is for wound allocation. if you get hit with 4 plasma shots and 16 bolter shots and you're running 5 terminators all thunder hammers, you are likely to take more casualties than if you are running 4 with thunder hammers and 1 with lightning claws. in the 1st case you can take up to 4 casualties from the plasma guns alone. in the 2nd you can put them all on the guy with the lightning claw and it's impossible for you to take more than 1 casualty from the plasma shots. so having that 1 guy in there who is unique can be useful when it comes to somebody taking the fall for the whole squad.

so in short the reasons are improved survivability and improved flexibility for the squad as a whole.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:because of the higher initiative. striking at initiative 4 improves the survivability of the squad by eliminating initiative 3 2 and 1 models before they can even swing. also it gauruntees that you get to swing against initiative 4 models, whether they hurt you back or not. even though if you just do the odds the thunder hammer looks stronger vs meqs, because the math of hit-wound-save doesnt factor in the initiative differences between the two weapons, it doesnt tell the whole story.

vs. toughness 3 models the lightning claws are actually stronger, since wounding on 3s with rerolls is better than wounding on 2s and the lightning claws have more attacks.

there are some situations where the above 2 reasons come together in a way that doesnt help the guy with all thunder hammers at all. vs a guard squad or an ork mob for instance. you dont need or even want thunder hammers in those situations - you want to take advantage of the marine's higher initiative with the lightning claw's extra attacks. the thunder hammers are actually a liability in that fight.

the last reason is for wound allocation. if you get hit with 4 plasma shots and 16 bolter shots and you're running 5 terminators all thunder hammers, you are likely to take more casualties than if you are running 4 with thunder hammers and 1 with lightning claws. in the 1st case you can take up to 4 casualties from the plasma guns alone. in the 2nd you can put them all on the guy with the lightning claw and it's impossible for you to take more than 1 casualty from the plasma shots. so having that 1 guy in there who is unique can be useful when it comes to somebody taking the fall for the whole squad.

so in short the reasons are improved survivability and improved flexibility for the squad as a whole.

Hmm. I keep reading that last sentence... and I'm not following. Everything up until there makes sense, but that last part is confusing. How are you more likely to dye from plasma shots if you have a hammer and shield vs two lightning claws?

Not saying you are wrong... I'm just not following.

the rules for wound allocation state that each member of a squad has to be assigned an armor or invulnerable save before any member of a squad can be assigned a 2nd. they also state that models with identical characteristics roll their saves as a group.

so.... consider 2 different terminator squads with 5 men in each. the 1st has all thunder hammers. the 2nd has 4 thunder hammers and 1 lightning claw. both squads have to take 20 saves, 4 of which are invulnerable saves and 16 of which are armor saves.

for the 1st squad each guy is assigned 4 wounds. how you assign them doesnt matter because you're going to roll them all as a group. however many times you fail, thats how many casualties you take. so lets say you fail 2 invulnerables and 2 armor save rolls, right? thats 4 casualties for the 1st squad.

for the 2nd squad its more complex, and you can use that complexity to minimize the casualties you take. because models with identical stats and wargear roll as seperate groups, you can isolate the 4 invulnerable saves by putting them on the one guy with lightning claws. so 4 invulnerables to him and 4 armor saves to the each of other terminators. when you roll those saves, if your dice rolls are exactly identical, you'll take 3 casualties. you failed 2 armor saves so you lose 2 thunder hammer guys. the lightning claw guy failed 2 invulnerable saves so he dies too, but because he only has one wound the extra failed result is wasted.

so, taking exactly the same fire and rolling exactly the same results, the 2nd squad took fewer casualties thanks to clever use of the wound allocation rules.

by improved flexibility I mean that you'll have the right tool for fighting orks or guard or things like that. you dont need thunder hammers to kill that stuff, and they actually hurt you because your initiative 1 means they'll hit you first. you'll take more casualties and you'll deal fewer casualties too, since every guy they kill at initiative 3 or 4 is a guy who doesnt get to attack at initiative 1.

I hope thats a little clearer

Not a fan of assault marine or vanguards in the Vanilla Marines Codex. The fact that assault marines can't score makes them not worth their points. And buying a pack for each vanguard is horridly expensive. About the only use I can find for them is to stick them in a LR w/ Khan and give them all powerweapons S5 I5 powerweapons will destroy almost any unit you throw it at. It will be stupidly expensive. But if you are spending that many points you may as well fork out for Pedro+Khan+HonorGuard w/ Relic blades. I ran that unit in an apocalypse game. It preformed well vs nids 3 S6 power weapon attacks per model on def is awesome, but 4 S7 I5 per model on offence will kill anything you throw them at.

In a regular game, neither unit can really cut it. If you want cc go w/ hammernators in a LR. Bikes are decent as well due to toughness bonuses.

In order to make the assault marines worth their price they need to be scoring. As for the vanguards, I really can't justify paying more than 25pts per model WITH jump packs. And that would still likely be to expensive since assault termies are only 40pts a piece.

Vanilla Assault Marines' best use isn't actually assault; it's carrying around two flamers and roasting stuff. They're a bully unit. They can beat up on stuff that's weaker than they are, but not much else. Vanguard are simply too ridiculously overpriced to be worthwhile in the vanilla book.

Both of those factors are reversed in the Blood Angels codex, where Assault Marines become decent due to both being scoring and the typical inclusion of a Sanguinary Priest, while Vanguard are cheaper, and with DoA, very, very useful for Heroic Intervention awesomeness.