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Vampire lord 400
Red Fury
Infinite Hatred
Avatar of death
Sword of Bloodshed
The Flayed Hauberk
+2 ward vs fire

50 Grave guard with great weapons 695
+1 To hit banner

Bsb w/ regen 225

Wow 1000 pt deathstar.....

Perfect target for them nuclear bomb spells....

poof.....don't say I didn't warn you....

I don't get it.
Why not play the haunted mansion, for less points.

Vamp Lord, folding fortress, level 4 wizard, loremaster.
2x Vampires, level 1 wizards, loremasters, lords of the dead.

60 skeletons, banner of hellfire.

That gives you a level 4, and two level 1's, with invocation, and all of the spells. Personally, I'd spam wind of undeath, until something got near the tower, and then spam curse of years.

With 60 skeletons (who re-roll to wound with their magical flaming attacks), you'll never get the out of the building.

The level 1's need an 11 to get wind of undeath off (50/50 on 3 dice), and the vamp lord needs an 8 (I'd try on 2 dice) Entirely doable every magic phase.

About a 150 points cheaper than deathstar the OP suggested. Plus it can hit the whole table, multiple units, and take out just about anything.

If you wanted to compare equal points, I'd add 3 necro's with invocation into the tower as well. 6 tries to channel...


-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:I don't get it.
Why not play the haunted mansion, for less points.

Vamp Lord, folding fortress, level 4 wizard, loremaster.
2x Vampires, level 1 wizards, loremasters, lords of the dead.

60 skeletons, banner of hellfire.

That gives you a level 4, and two level 1's, with invocation, and all of the spells. Personally, I'd spam wind of undeath, until something got near the tower, and then spam curse of years.

With 60 skeletons (who re-roll to wound with their magical flaming attacks), you'll never get the out of the building.

The level 1's need an 11 to get wind of undeath off (50/50 on 3 dice), and the vamp lord needs an 8 (I'd try on 2 dice) Entirely doable every magic phase.

About a 150 points cheaper than deathstar the OP suggested. Plus it can hit the whole table, multiple units, and take out just about anything.

If you wanted to compare equal points, I'd add 3 necro's with invocation into the tower as well. 6 tries to channel...


-Matt

one small problem. you're only allowed to put 20 dudes in a building.

Im talking straight up killyness, my vampire lord killed 14 witch elves yesterday in one combat phase. It is a complete game changer when you have a squad that can go through everything like a hot knife through butter, what would you use to beat my unit? +/-100 points, and no stupid gak like techlis, im talking solid killy units.

UNREALPwnage wrote:Im talking straight up killyness, my vampire lord killed 14 witch elves yesterday in one combat phase. It is a complete game changer when you have a squad that can go through everything like a hot knife through butter, what would you use to beat my unit? +/-100 points, and no stupid gak like techlis, im talking solid killy units.

Well, you miscalculated your Grave Guard. They're 650 without that banner, 707 with. I hope you made room for another 57 points in your army.

Considering you have over 1100pts of stuff there I'd probably just feed it needless things and proceed to eat the rest of your army while tossing nuke spells at it. Telling people to "beat your unit" that costs half an army... what exactly are you expecting in response? People will use half their army against it, which tends to include a Lv.4 caster tossing out nuke spells. You're certainly using your 400 points of Lord choice, why are you telling others not to use theirs?

Edit:

And... to play into the fun, I'd probably hit it with my Lv.4 Sorceress's Signature Shadow spell to drop your unit's movement to M1-3 each round and tear up the rest of your army. If you ever got daring enough to have the Lord jump out on its own to catch something, a round or two of Lv.2 Sorceress Metal Signature spell (you will throw 1's) and plenty of Crossbows will make sure he goes down in a hurry.

The unit is 695, how did you get 707, also im talking all combat oriented units, no wizards, no magic. An example would be 400 night goblins. What unit to you usually run that can kill this one?

Why hasn't anyone mentioned that you need a minimum of 3 non character units in the army to make it legal?

Ragnar4 wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:I don't get it.
Why not play the haunted mansion, for less points.

Vamp Lord, folding fortress, level 4 wizard, loremaster.
2x Vampires, level 1 wizards, loremasters, lords of the dead.

60 skeletons, banner of hellfire.

That gives you a level 4, and two level 1's, with invocation, and all of the spells. Personally, I'd spam wind of undeath, until something got near the tower, and then spam curse of years.

With 60 skeletons (who re-roll to wound with their magical flaming attacks), you'll never get the out of the building.

The level 1's need an 11 to get wind of undeath off (50/50 on 3 dice), and the vamp lord needs an 8 (I'd try on 2 dice) Entirely doable every magic phase.

About a 150 points cheaper than deathstar the OP suggested. Plus it can hit the whole table, multiple units, and take out just about anything.

If you wanted to compare equal points, I'd add 3 necro's with invocation into the tower as well. 6 tries to channel...


-Matt

one small problem. you're only allowed to put 20 dudes in a building.

No, it has unlimited size. Buildings are exceptionally broken in 8th. Ive run a list like this for lizards and its silly also

HoverBoy wrote:Why hasn't anyone mentioned that you need a minimum of 3 non character units in the army to make it legal?

I imagine because neither list idea is a full list, just a character combo mostly. Its conceivable there would be more units

UNREALPwnage wrote:The unit is 695, how did you get 707, also im talking all combat oriented units, no wizards, no magic. An example would be 400 night goblins. What unit to you usually run that can kill this one?

So, you get a lord character, but others can't use theirs? I'm honestly not afraid of that unit at all, by the time it made it to my lines, I'd have more than enough to take it out.

Also, I'll bite:

20 witch elves with flaming banner, plus 2 hydras. After one round you won't have any grave guard left, and your vamp is stuck in a combat he can't win. This is less than half your unit cost btw. I'll add in a lvl 4 with shadow in the back ground dropping pit of shades and the withering on your unit.

There are for more cheesy things you could do with VC. Like take black arts on all your casters for a much larger power dice pool.

In 8th edition, melee death stars aren't what they used to be, two rounds of pit of shades and your vamp won't have much of a contingency.

100 skaven slaves, and when you're done with that have a hundred more. Have fun.

Yeh I'm not seeing this as a huge threat to be honest, especially at a cost of 1000pts. Something like 'putting all your eggs in one basket' springs to mind.

Though that is unless that lord is packing some ultra cool special rules there, not to familiar with the vamp powers.

9 Helblaster volley guns. 990pts.
Or if I;m not allowed to break the spam rule

3 Helblaster volley guns and 3 Helstorms 675pts.

I was talking units in combat, ex. Grimgore and 40 black orks

Really isn't that impressive, I get to see one similar every week.

I watched the unit fall to Brettonian Peasants...yes Peasants (3 turns of flaming shooting) backed up by knights charging turn 4.

Kirasu wrote:

HoverBoy wrote:Why hasn't anyone mentioned that you need a minimum of 3 non character units in the army to make it legal?

I imagine because neither list idea is a full list, just a character combo mostly. Its conceivable there would be more units

My bad

Jake Bake A Cake wrote:Yeh I'm not seeing this as a huge threat to be honest, especially at a cost of 1000pts. Something like 'putting all your eggs in one basket' springs to mind.

Dwellers below immediatly springs to mind, that spell just loves huge units.

I think the effectiveness of this unit also revolves around what spells are supporting it. Another vampire with helm of commandment or some other WS boost buffs it further, and even more so if Vanhel's is being cast to speed it along or give it re-rolls and ASF.

I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that some of these suggestions will wipe it out "with ease". Even 50 flaming bow shots are only averaging somewhere like 6 kills per turn (1/2 hit, 1/3 wound, 2/3, get through armor saves).

Similarly 20 witch elves and 2 hydras will do a *lot* of damage, but I don't see them going through the whole unit in one turn. That's an awful lot of killing. Of course, I'm also assuming magic unit buffs that might not be happening.

But on the flip side, building a big nasty combat unit and then saying you can only take it out in combat is like building a death-tron 5000 that has to stay plugged in to the wall... but no one is allowed to unplug it if they want to defeat it.

This is exactly the kind of unit for which the uber spells exist.

But if I had to venture something, I suppose a Chosen block properly buffed with Tzeentch to their 3+ ward, and a choppy lord or some such would at least fight it to a stand-still.

UNREALPwnage wrote:The unit is 695, how did you get 707?

By not cheating your opponent out of even more points and purchasing the Standard Bearer command upgrade that is required for you to have that 45pt magic banner...

UNREALPwnage wrote:Im talking straight up killyness, my vampire lord killed 14 witch elves yesterday in one combat phase. It is a complete game changer when you have a squad that can go through everything like a hot knife through butter, what would you use to beat my unit? +/-100 points, and no stupid gak like techlis, im talking solid killy units.

i would feed you 150 Gnoblars.

they can actually kill Skeletons, WILL be steadfast, and you certaintly won't kill them all.

and while that 1k of yours is chewing on 300 points of gnoblars my Ogres will be eating the rest of your army.



i don't have to kill you to destroy you. Beating a unit doesn't mean Destroying it.

you will find that the best generals don't rely on gimmiks like Deathstars. they win by isolating threats and neutralizing them to where they are no longer a threat. if i can tie up 1000 points of your army with 300 points of utter i will gladly do so. it doesn't matter if you do wipe them, you will be out of position and will have only gotten 300 points of stuff while i gained 700 points by taking 1000 points out of the battle for a turn or 3.

by the time you do kill the Gnoblars i will have destroyed the rest of your force and can now out maneuver and flank your deathstar. heck if the gnoblars are still there i might just rear and flank charge you. and that will destroy your Deathstar.

And then it's the little pointer that your BSB is naked at the moment. T4 with a 4+ save isn't the hardest, and when he is gone...

Yeah, deathstars can be a royal...uhmm pain in the rear, but they aren't the height of cheese.

@ zeke - I would just march up the hydras (staying on his flanks, so no charge), drop two flame templates getting between 50-60 hits, taking that squad down to manageable size, next turn, triple charge it, have the witches gank the BSB, then go to town on the unit.

I've had a single hydra destroy a block of 30 GW graveguard with regen BSB, took 3 turns of combat, however.

Or do one better and use sallamanders.

UNREALPwnage wrote:Vampire lord 400
Red Fury
Infinite Hatred
Avatar of death
Sword of Bloodshed
The Flayed Hauberk
+2 ward vs fire

50 Grave guard with great weapons 695
+1 To hit banner

Bsb w/ regen 225

Oh thats' easy. I just go and shred the rest of your army, avoiding this unit where possible.

And whilst it might be risky, I reckon my Gutbunker could flatten this. Chuck in a bit of +1S, +1T, Regen, Stubborn and MR2 and I''m laughing for the most part.

See, you have the fundamental flaw...the BSB. I'll allocated to him, and not only do I land a pretty healthy chunk of VPs, but I also make your unit a lot less scary, as from then on in you'll be hoiking out models hand over fist. Trick for me of course is to wallop him with my Tyrant. That way he's dead and Regen is gone before a single Great Weapon is swung.

Alright, I'll play by his rules:

That set up you have there is 1332 points, so:

Grimgor 375
Black orcs x40 - standard, banner of butchery - 565 (can't remmeber unit standard cost, so made him 20 pts)
20 night goblins - nets, champion - 101
Black orc big boss - BSB, flaming banner, mundane armor/weapons - far less than 300 points

Grimgor and orcs line up in horde with BSB in there, unit of night goblins flanks.

Netted, your vamp lord needs 4s to wound the black orcs, so he'll get about 5 wounds (that's being generous). Then the orcs swing back...grimgor's 7 rerollable S7 attacks + 3 S6 rerollable attacks from the big boss + 47 rerollable S5 attacks from the squad, all flaming, and you'll get no armor saves. That's about 27 wounds.

Grave guard can still swing back with all 20, needing 3s and 3s, netting about 9 more wounds.

So, after combat, my total combat res will be 27 + 3 (ranks) + 1 (standard) +1 (flank) +1 (BSB) = 33
your total will be 14 + 1(standard) + 1 (rank) = 16
combat lost by 17.

you have your vamp, bsb, and 6 grave guard left.
I have grimgor, bsb, 27 black orcs, and 20 night goblins left

Next round, grimgor slaughters the last of the grave guard (we'll say 1 is left).
vamp kills another 5
black orcs finish off BSB, last grave guard model
vamp dies to crumble.

greenbay924 wrote:Alright, I'll play by his rules:

That set up you have there is 1332 points, so:

Grimgor 375
Black orcs x40 - standard, banner of butchery - 565 (can't remmeber unit standard cost, so made him 20 pts)
20 night goblins - nets, champion - 101
Black orc big boss - BSB, flaming banner, mundane armor/weapons - far less than 300 points

Grimgor and orcs line up in horde with BSB in there, unit of night goblins flanks.

Netted, your vamp lord needs 4s to wound the black orcs, so he'll get about 5 wounds (that's being generous). Then the orcs swing back...grimgor's 7 rerollable S7 attacks + 3 S6 rerollable attacks from the big boss + 47 rerollable S5 attacks from the squad, all flaming, and you'll get no armor saves. That's about 27 wounds.

Grave guard can still swing back with all 20, needing 3s and 3s, netting about 9 more wounds.

So, after combat, my total combat res will be 27 + 3 (ranks) + 1 (standard) +1 (flank) +1 (BSB) = 33
your total will be 14 + 1(standard) + 1 (rank) = 16
combat lost by 17.

you have your vamp, bsb, and 6 grave guard left.
I have grimgor, bsb, 27 black orcs, and 20 night goblins left

Next round, grimgor slaughters the last of the grave guard (we'll say 1 is left).
vamp kills another 5
black orcs finish off BSB, last grave guard model
vamp dies to crumble.

Wouldn't the Vampire player refuse the challenge and dump a ton of S6 killing blow attacks on Grimgor? Nice that the orcs didn't need a BSB in the fight.

-Matt

I never mentioned a challenge in that post, and if I did issue one and he refused, I'd just send his vamp to the back of the pack...

Is there a chance of KB? yeah, but after that first round, there's going to be so few left in the grave guard unit, that combet res from the regular black orcs would be enough.

i think the only way Vamps should do Deathstars is to send the unit out by itself, but still in range of the BSB and General, and just replace losses with invocations. unless your opponent has Lore of Life or wipes the unit out it will be tough to beat the vamp unit.

if you stick the vamp in the unit he has a good chance of getting killed. at least don't have it be your general.

Congratulations, half of your army can beat my unit that isnt allowed any lords, and im not allowed to shoot it, or cast magic on it. So you end up "winning" because no one plays you.

WOOOHOOO

I played against this unit yesterday (2500 points so it was only 25 grave guard, +1 hit banner, regen BSB and Vamp).

I charged it with 18 MoT warriors (no flaming banner, no characters), I killed off the BSB in 1 tern of combat and the unit started dropping like flies. The only reason the unit was alive at the end of the game was his ethereal coach slammed into my flank on turn 4.

@Black ork unit, my friend runs a hoard of 50 of them and i haven't lost my unit to it yet, black orks are good and grimgore is amazing but when i play orks i use a wight king with nightshroud and sword of kings to tie grimgore up.