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Hi everyone, im looking for help in trying to understand just which weapons in the 40k universe can actually glance/penetrate a necron monolith or pylon and any help would be appreciated..

The 'Living Metal' rule states: The Monolith is made of living Necron metal which is not only self-repairing but is capable of adapting its structure to resist incoming attacks. Attacks which count the target's armour value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons that get additional armour penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2D6 for armour penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what.

Also in the Necron FAQ & Errata the question below was asked:-
'Does a model with a powerfist/claw that attacks a Monolith get to double its strength for armour penetration rolls?'
GW responded by saying:-
'Yes, powerfists/claws, thunder hammers and so on still double their users strength when attacking a Monolith'

This has me puzzled as on one hand the 'Living Metal' rule states clearly only unaugmented strength + a single D6, however the errata answer states they would double their strength in close combat.
It sounds to me asthough the 'Living Metal' rule is based for shooting attacks against the Monolith only, which means only strength 8 or above could harm it and weapons with the 'rending' rule would not get the extra dice for armour penetration when shooting at it, if thats the case and based on the errata answer by GW does it mean units that assault the monolith with 'rending' would be allowed the extra dice or not??
Time for a lie down or my head will break..

Userarm wrote:
This has me puzzled as on one hand the 'Living Metal' rule states clearly only unaugmented strength + a single D6, however the errata answer states they would double their strength in close combat.

It sounds to me asthough the 'Living Metal' rule is based for shooting attacks against the Monolith only, which means only strength 8 or above could harm it and weapons with the 'rending' rule would not get the extra dice for armour penetration when shooting at it, if thats the case and based on the errata answer by GW does it mean units that assault the monolith with 'rending' would be allowed the extra dice or not??
Time for a lie down or my head will break..

No, the reason Powerfists still work is because they double the USER's Strength (as opposed to altering the Strength of a weapon which is what Living Metal prevents). However, the Living Metal rule does indeed still apply in close combat, so bonus penetration dice due to rending are definitely out.

ninja-ed by the expert ... ^_^ agree completely with Yakface

Thanks guys, i shall have to teach my cousin a lesson for trying to destroy my pylon using the 'rending' rule from his termies, even though i did point out the living metal rule he convinced me he still could use it, payback time me thinks...

Yep, look at the rule again, it says unaugmented strength of the WEAPON. "any WEAPON attackeing the Monolith.............." So, what is the unaugmented strength of a powerfist? 2 x users strength. Anything that would get added to taht (Furious Charge, Rending, Tank Hunter, etc etc) do not work.

Remember thoughy, that AP1 weapons stil get +1 on the damage chart.

Yeah i understand the modifiers still apply after being glanced/penetrated as they aren't affected by said rule, cheers boys..

don_mondo wrote:Yep, look at the rule again, it says unaugmented strength of the WEAPON. "any WEAPON attackeing the Monolith.............." So, what is the unaugmented strength of a powerfist? 2 x users strength. Anything that would get added to taht (Furious Charge, Rending, Tank Hunter, etc etc) do not work.

You'd still get furious charge bonus, it's not augmenting a weapons str it's augmenting the models strength. But yes, tank hunter would not work.

Kevin949 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Yep, look at the rule again, it says unaugmented strength of the WEAPON. "any WEAPON attackeing the Monolith.............." So, what is the unaugmented strength of a powerfist? 2 x users strength. Anything that would get added to taht (Furious Charge, Rending, Tank Hunter, etc etc) do not work.

You'd still get furious charge bonus, it's not augmenting a weapons str it's augmenting the models strength. But yes, tank hunter would not work.

No, you wouldn't. Doesn't matter what it augments, all you ever get is the unaugmented strength of the weapon (USW) plus 1d6. Nothing else is added in. Period. If you add in Furious Charge, you're changing the formula to USW plus 1d6 +1. The Living Metal rule doesn't allow that. All it allows is USW plus 1d6.

USW is (double strength of user)

Strength of user has been modified, not the strength of the weapon.

Living Metal does nothing to the strength of close combat attacks, as close combat weapons do not have "strength" values.

The only thing it does is prevent extra penetration dice, as even CC weapons can provide such a bonus. Everything else though, is unaffected.

Living metal only specifies unaugmented strength of the weapon, not the model using it. Since CC attacks are not made by weapons (but rather, by models), and CC weapons only serve to modify the attacks made by those models, Living Metal does not take effect.

Power Fists, Furious Charge, and anything else that boosts the strength of an attacking model (in CC only) are unaffected by Living Metal unless they would gain additional penetration dice (which are prohibited).

Userarm wrote:Thanks guys, i shall have to teach my cousin a lesson for trying to destroy my pylon using the 'rending' rule from his termies, even though i did point out the living metal rule he convinced me he still could use it, payback time me thinks...

What terminators have rending?

Bronzi_The_BadlandBelcher wrote:

Userarm wrote:Thanks guys, i shall have to teach my cousin a lesson for trying to destroy my pylon using the 'rending' rule from his termies, even though i did point out the living metal rule he convinced me he still could use it, payback time me thinks...

What terminators have rending?

Termies with assault cannons or whatever?

Xca|iber wrote:Living Metal does nothing to the strength of close combat attacks, as close combat weapons do not have "strength" values.

The only thing it does is prevent extra penetration dice, as even CC weapons can provide such a bonus. Everything else though, is unaffected.

Living metal only specifies unaugmented strength of the weapon, not the model using it. Since CC attacks are not made by weapons (but rather, by models), and CC weapons only serve to modify the attacks made by those models, Living Metal does not take effect.

Power Fists, Furious Charge, and anything else that boosts the strength of an attacking model (in CC only) are unaffected by Living Metal unless they would gain additional penetration dice (which are prohibited).

Except that the rule doesn't say that the only thing it affects are extra penetration dice. Read the inital post, he quoted it. "In practice, the only thing... " See that line. Now, consider that as a mathematical formula. USW = A, 1d6 = B, per the rule A+B=allowed penetration against Living Metal. Anything else is not part of A or B, so is not allowed. No adding C (Furious Charge, Tank Hunter, etc) into the formula as that changes the formula. And if your CCW doesn't have a Strength value, well, sorry, but that would mean you get 0 + 1d6. But then again, it's a weapon and it's strength is generally the strength of the user. Seems to me that CCW do have a strength value after all.............

Living Metal is mostly a mess needing an update. Melta Bombs, for example, have a set penetration so what't the rule doing to it? Giving them an extra d6 on top of the normal 8+2d6?

Spetulhu wrote:Living Metal is mostly a mess needing an update. Melta Bombs, for example, have a set penetration so what't the rule doing to it? Giving them an extra d6 on top of the normal 8+2d6?

It clearlly states you get you don't get the extra dice just S8.

Noir wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Living Metal is mostly a mess needing an update. Melta Bombs, for example, have a set penetration so what't the rule doing to it? Giving them an extra d6 on top of the normal 8+2d6?

It clearlly states you get you don't get the extra dice just S8.

Melta Bombs don't have the melta rule so it's not an extra D6.

zeshin wrote:

Noir wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Living Metal is mostly a mess needing an update. Melta Bombs, for example, have a set penetration so what't the rule doing to it? Giving them an extra d6 on top of the normal 8+2d6?

It clearlly states you get you don't get the extra dice just S8.

Melta Bombs don't have the melta rule so it's not an extra D6.

Yes it is. The process for vehicle penetration in the rulebook is defined as S+D6, so any additional dice added to this process are most certainly 'extra'.


Again, the Living Metal rule says:

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

So I have a question. What about AP 1 or tank hunters. Would those be canceled by living metal?

Soulx wrote:So I have a question. What about AP 1 or tank hunters. Would those be canceled by living metal?

I'm not sure why this is so hard. Tank Hunters adds +1 to penetration rolls and therefore is cancelled out by living metal.

Again: "In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."


AP1 adds +1 to the DAMAGE roll (after you've determined whether or not the attack has penetrated the vehicle's armor) and therefore functions as usual.

So, Userarm, first main headache for a Mono is the tau railgun.

#1: RG - Highest STR in the game and AP1 to boot!
#2: LasCan.
#3: Meltatoys ('cause of the AP1, not the 'melta' as stated by several guys above)
#4: Pfists, THs, and on down
(yes, I left out the IG toys, as I don't know 'em too well, so forgive me for leaving out various Ordnance).

Don't forget Demolishers/Vindicators. S10 and a big target that you would have to roll REALLY bad on the scatter.
On #3 add the SoB Exorcist missile: S8 but also AP1.

Oh, and Lysander to the #1 slot: Fist of Dorn is S10 and adds 1 to the vehicle damage table. 4 attacks on the charge.

don_mondo wrote:

Xca|iber wrote:Living Metal does nothing to the strength of close combat attacks, as close combat weapons do not have "strength" values.

The only thing it does is prevent extra penetration dice, as even CC weapons can provide such a bonus. Everything else though, is unaffected.

Living metal only specifies unaugmented strength of the weapon, not the model using it. Since CC attacks are not made by weapons (but rather, by models), and CC weapons only serve to modify the attacks made by those models, Living Metal does not take effect.

Power Fists, Furious Charge, and anything else that boosts the strength of an attacking model (in CC only) are unaffected by Living Metal unless they would gain additional penetration dice (which are prohibited).

Except that the rule doesn't say that the only thing it affects are extra penetration dice. Read the inital post, he quoted it. "In practice, the only thing... " See that line. Now, consider that as a mathematical formula. USW = A, 1d6 = B, per the rule A+B=allowed penetration against Living Metal. Anything else is not part of A or B, so is not allowed. No adding C (Furious Charge, Tank Hunter, etc) into the formula as that changes the formula. And if your CCW doesn't have a Strength value, well, sorry, but that would mean you get 0 + 1d6. But then again, it's a weapon and it's strength is generally the strength of the user. Seems to me that CCW do have a strength value after all.............

No, you wouldn't get 0+D6, because the weapon is not attacking the monolith. The "Strength + D6" only applies when a weapon is attacking. At best, this can be applied to ranged attacks, as those are resolved based on the stat-profile of a weapon (with regards to Armour Penetration). Close combat attacks are made by models. If you really wanted to go into RAW, that particular line of the Living Metal rule ("Strength + D6 only blah blah blah") affects nothing, because weapons never attack.

Not this again!

yakface wrote:

zeshin wrote:

Noir wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:Living Metal is mostly a mess needing an update. Melta Bombs, for example, have a set penetration so what't the rule doing to it? Giving them an extra d6 on top of the normal 8+2d6?

It clearlly states you get you don't get the extra dice just S8.

Melta Bombs don't have the melta rule so it's not an extra D6.

Yes it is. The process for vehicle penetration in the rulebook is defined as S+D6, so any additional dice added to this process are most certainly 'extra'.


Again, the Living Metal rule says:

"In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single D6 no matter what."

I would disagree with this. The rule for close combat and armour penetration are clear for normal close combat attacks. Grenades have their own special rules for both use and damage as noted in the grenade section of page 63. The assumption that the grenades get the standard D6 as per the CC rules would seem to mean that you would get 2D6 + the applicable number for defensive/assault/krak grenades and 3D6 + 8 for melta bombs.

Mind you I'm willing to take a leap of faith and assume that the intent was to have melta bombs nerfed vs. living metal in the same way as melta weapons and that's how I personally play it.

And Codex rule Living Metal says you don't get extra dice, and use the base ST. Base ST the ST before any dice are added in.

zeshin wrote:
I would disagree with this. The rule for close combat and armour penetration are clear for normal close combat attacks. Grenades have their own special rules for both use and damage as noted in the grenade section of page 63. The assumption that the grenades get the standard D6 as per the CC rules would seem to mean that you would get 2D6 + the applicable number for defensive/assault/krak grenades and 3D6 + 8 for melta bombs.

Mind you I'm willing to take a leap of faith and assume that the intent was to have melta bombs nerfed vs. living metal in the same way as melta weapons and that's how I personally play it.

First off, the rules for grenades are very clear in the rulebook. They specify *exactly* what the armor penetration roll is for each grenade type, so I'm not sure how you can possibly be reading that what is printed in the rules for grenades is somehow in addition to a further D6.

But more importantly, when considering the Monolith (which is what we're discussing here) the Living Metal rule is even MORE specific, which I've already quoted several times. You only get to roll a single D6 for penentration ever against a Monolith.

yakface wrote:

zeshin wrote:
I would disagree with this. The rule for close combat and armour penetration are clear for normal close combat attacks. Grenades have their own special rules for both use and damage as noted in the grenade section of page 63. The assumption that the grenades get the standard D6 as per the CC rules would seem to mean that you would get 2D6 + the applicable number for defensive/assault/krak grenades and 3D6 + 8 for melta bombs.

Mind you I'm willing to take a leap of faith and assume that the intent was to have melta bombs nerfed vs. living metal in the same way as melta weapons and that's how I personally play it.

First off, the rules for grenades are very clear in the rulebook. They specify *exactly* what the armor penetration roll is for each grenade type, so I'm not sure how you can possibly be reading that what is printed in the rules for grenades is somehow in addition to a further D6.

But more importantly, when considering the Monolith (which is what we're discussing here) the Living Metal rule is even MORE specific, which I've already quoted several times. You only get to roll a single D6 for penentration ever against a Monolith.

I wasn't reading the extra D6. You very specifically said the rules for vehicle penetration in CC states 1D6. So if you take the grenade rules in addition to the CC rules you could erroneously get the extra D6 as your statement implied. I agree that the living metal rule will only allow a D6, I was simply pointing out that the path you took to get to that conclusion was wrong. The living metal rule restricts the dice to 1D6 because it says it does in the living metal rule, not because of the CC rules. And to my original comment I was simply stating that melta bombs are simply 2D6, not 1D6 + melta rule.

Yay me, i got a debate going with my first post and yes it was a terminator with an assault cannon that made me query the rule further, so just incase anyone wants someone to blame it was a SM player (the root of all my gaming problems lol) who started it..
Thanks for the list, so to clarify its any strength 8 or above shooty weapons (ordnance still roll 2D6 and pick highest, melta weapons only roll 1D6 even if under half range), any model with strength 8 or above (this includes models wiith powerfists/claws, thunder hammers and witchblades which increase base strength only), melta bombs at strength 8 and will add 1D6 only and other weapons/grenades that glance/penetrate vehicles on a certain roll like the gauss rule for example ie rolls of 6's will always glance even if armour value is greater etc
Rending in both shooting and CC would not be allowed as its adding extra dice onto armour penetration not base strength, does that about cover everything?

Userarm wrote:other weapons/grenades that glance/penetrate vehicles on a certain roll like the gauss rule for example ie rolls of 6's will always glance even if armour value is greater etc

All good except this one. If a weapon, ex Haywire Grenades, has a rule that says something like glance on 2-5, pen on 6, then a 6 will result in a penetrating hit.

@Xcalibur. When making close combat attacks, you attack with a weapon, even if that weapon is your fist. See page 42 for details............................