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I was wondering, reading through the many topics here, about the 'dexes.

So many army lists there, made me wonder... What are the "best" ones? The ones which are more characterful, flavourful, fun, balanced (regarding units that are worth taking vs. units that are completely useless) and all that?

For the best... My guess would be the Ork Codex. I see thousands of different lists, generally a tad specialized, but it seems it can also be a "take on all comers" list. The only unit I see that people are really against are the Mega Armoured Nobz. Everything else can fit one way or the other.

The worst... in terms of "writing" per se (as in, whoever wrote the descriptions), I'd have to say the Blood Angels. Too much BLOOD! all around. Space Wolves are also a bit , with all the wolf things going on (especially the Thunderwolves - Space Marines ridding giant wolves? How did that ever pass?).

In terms of standing the test of time, I'll say Chaos Space Marines. They killed a lot taking Daemons from it, and in my humble opinion the author didn't really know where to stand. Renegades like the Red Corsairs would be better served with C: SM, seeing as they didn't magically discarded or lost their wargear when they turned traitor. Also, and again IMHO, why do Chosen, who have ruled worlds but band together under one banner, don't have two wounds? They've just got access to more wargear and an extra point of leadership? Generic daemons, while (as I see it) fun in theory, seem out of place. And not to mention the confusion regarding dedicated Marines (Berzerkers, for example - the exception would be Thousand Sons) and Marines dedicated to a God... thanks to a single icon.

Just want to know people's opinions on this, don't be too harsh.

Personally I peg the Chaos Codex and Nids to be two of the worst "written" wise. Chaos lost alot of it's character with that edition and became, as everyone have said, Codex: Renegades rather than Chaos legions proper. Nids also lost their character with (ironically) the addition of characters, loosing command-squad esque Warrior HQ choices, All-stealer armies and the massive pointjack and option reduction of the Carnifex. I still remember a time when a Carnifex spelled doom for anyone caught in combat with it. Now it's a running joke.

I would agree with you on the Orks, but I also think the Guard codex is good as well. The newer unit choices perfectly reflect the hammer that is the guard and made them genuinely terrifying.

I'm not comparing any of the pre-CSM codex ones because they are a fair bit dated to be compared to the newer dexes.

Yeah, I was thinking about C: IG too. Those 4 point troops are just awesome, though the Codex can be a headache to look at in the beginning.

I also thought that about 'Nids, but in their defense, I think named characters follow the trend of other SC in various lists - How Lysander can be used for any army, for example. And the GW writers argued that they don't necessarily represent any one individual but exceptional combinations of genes that arise ocasionally or are just hard to, erm, breed. But I do see your point regarding them.

Stealer lists did surprise me, as I have a bunch of BfM genestealers and the Space Hulk ones I wanted to use with the Brood Lord. Didn't really understand that move.

my main gripe with the nid codex is throwing out the old conventions of the 4th ed one. I remember in an old interview that the sculptor (I think it was Jes) who made the fex was so excited about it's options, as well as talk about the return of all-stealer armies, and how removing the characters might cause grief, but done so that the nids get their more "faceless horde" type of feel. 5th ed effectively kicked all of that to the curb.

My issue with the Tyranid dex was removing about 3/4 of the options. While a lot of the options in the 4th ed codex weren't taken often, some rebalancing would have done wonders. Instead, they basically rewrote it from the ground up. And they did the one thing that shouldn't be done - make a lot of common army builds not only bad, but illegal.

Things like making Carnifexes in a brood require the same weapon loadout each - bye-bye people who had a lot of Carnifex built for different things. Moving units around in the FoC or removing options that people used to put them in different FoC slots (Tyranid Warriors).

Generally, people loved the Tyanid codex. Cruddace went at it with an axe and came up with something most people hate, and have even given up the hobby over. They should have just let Phil Kelly do the codex - he has the passion for the race that writing a codex requires. Or at least had him oversee Cruddace, since it was only his second codex.

Another downfall of the codex isn't the writing, but the model range. Key units don't have models. While I like to convert things, the level of conversion skill needed for key units is obscene. Tervigons and Tyrannofexes are some of the better units in the codex, and not only don't have models, don't even have example conversions for base size or general size in the colour section. Harpies as well - with Codex Dark Eldar out, Harpies seem like a natural option with their fast movement and heavy venom cannons, but nada.

While it's not making me quit the game or the army, I really hope they get Phil Kelly to do the 6th edition codex and support it with a decent model range.

-Loki- wrote:Generally, people loved the Tyanid codex. Cruddace went at it with an axe and came up with something most people hate, and have even given up the hobby over. They should have just let Phil Kelly do the codex - he has the passion for the race that writing a codex requires. Or at least had him oversee Cruddace, since it was only his second codex.

Passion for the codex can be a problem sometimes. I remember the Iron Warrior rage. But I agree with most things that have been said about the Tyranids, though I'll also say that I'm not particularly sympathetic for people who tailored whole armies around the Carnifex just for power playing - I know it's unfair to say so, but I feel they are different from someone who played now-invalid dexes like the Lost and the Damned.

That said, in the new Nid codex, I actually like the idea of fielding only Tyranid Warrior broods and a TW Prime.

The best written codex IMO opinion is probably the Vanilla Space Marine, Space Wolves (even if they did go a bit wolf overboard) and Orks.

The worst IMO is Blood Angels (on the basis that whilst it is a powerful book, it lacks a large amount of balance and quality control) and Chaos Space Marines (reasons too numerous to mention).

Destrado wrote:

-Loki- wrote:Generally, people loved the Tyanid codex. Cruddace went at it with an axe and came up with something most people hate, and have even given up the hobby over. They should have just let Phil Kelly do the codex - he has the passion for the race that writing a codex requires. Or at least had him oversee Cruddace, since it was only his second codex.

Passion for the codex can be a problem sometimes. I remember the Iron Warrior rage. But I agree with most things that have been said about the Tyranids, though I'll also say that I'm not particularly sympathetic for people who tailored whole armies around the Carnifex just for power playing - I know it's unfair to say so, but I feel they are different from someone who played now-invalid dexes like the Lost and the Damned.

That said, in the new Nid codex, I actually like the idea of fielding only Tyranid Warrior broods and a TW Prime.

To be fair, they did actively encourage multiple Carnifex lists, even to the point of letting them be Elites if they cost under 115 points (which is an odd number, but eh). They were also, aside from the Hive Tyrant, the only really beefy MCs. While Cruddace may have wanted to emphasize the new MCs like Tervigons, Trygons and Tyrannofexes, he shouldn't have done it at the expense of a large amount of Tyranid players. The better thing to do would have been simply bringing up the price slightly, but leaving the single Carnifex units and using them as elites if they are cheap enough, and not removing their options. Having them be 20 points cheaper, with a 20 point Armoured Shell upgrade, so they would be 160 points with a 2+ save, would have made them much more competitive with a Trygon (which would lack the better armour, but have a lot of other benefits still).

And again, they're emphasizing the use of units that have not only no official models, but no official size guide, or base size guide, listed in the codex. People are using Carnifexes as counts-as Tervigons. Honestly, they should be on trygon sized bases, but there's nothing in the codex or FAQ that says otherwise. Then there's the fact that a lot of players don't have the ability to do these complex conversions, so they're emphasizing units that most people won't be able to actually represent properly.

Best: Dark Eldar or Space Wolves. Both are fantastic.

Worst: Chaos Space Marines. An abomination of a book.

I find that Dark Eldar is actually a quite well-written codex because it explains why they go about killin' stuff instead of just saying 'MERDER MERDER HEH HEH'
The absolute worst is probably the Space Wolves (Canis Wolfborn? Seriously? How about just Wolfy Wolfson)

Worst: Codex CSM. Quit the game for a good 3 years when that piece of gak came out.

I have to second that CSM hate. Although it made it much less of a headache to go up against daemon weapon toting hq choices with almost a dozen attacks that turn into greater daemons when you kill them.... it really neutered the fluffiness of chaos in general. Sad stuff really!

Definitely have to get on board the CSM=worst codex train,IMO it just sucked the flavor completely out of a once fun army.

As for best written Codex,I'm going to have to say Orks.

Hmm, tough calls there. I think the best codex is the marine codex because it has so much fluff in it. Conversely, I reckon the Blood Angels Codex, despite having lots of cool units in it was really boring. It just seemed like they really phoned it in for most of the battles.

Nids are definitely one of the worst

LordTyphus wrote:Nids are definitely one of the worst

I'll agree with that one, as for the best? Well IMHO it seems GW is more biased towards the Imperial Guard, their book is very competitive

as far as fluff and composition goes, i would have to say that Guard have one of the best and most enjoyable codices to read... the worst has to be GWs version of sparkling Vampires.. The blood angels have one of the worst codices that i have ever seen... IMO there is no real downside to using their codex (so our gaming group straight refuse to play with or against that codex)

Ensis Ferrae wrote: (so our gaming group straight refuse to play with or against that codex)

WTF??

Some gaming groups seem so idiotic. It's a legal codex released by GW, it is good, but nothing is broken in that codex. Space Wolves is a better codex.


OT:
CSM codex is competitive, but extremely bland and with horrible internal balance - winner of worst written codex award
I don't really like the SW codex because of the no-brainer choices. With more internal balance in that book, it would be awesome, but when some options clearly outshine the others, it's a poor book
BA codex has bad fluff and a horrible cover, but the codex itself is decently internally balanced (except for troops section)

Ork codex is pretty cool, several possible builds, decent internal balance, nice fluff etc
Space Marine codex is also pretty good, again several builds, good balance & decent fluff

Illumini wrote:

WTF??

Some gaming groups seem so idiotic. It's a legal codex released by GW, it is good, but nothing is broken in that codex. Space Wolves is a better codex.

from our point of view, think of it this way.. the deepstrike scatters less than any other codex, the vehicles are all fast, and you can upgrade some marines to get fearless and some other abilities... wheres the downside to any of that?? At any rate, since it is a mutually shared view on that particular codex, and we shared the same views on a great many things prior to ever gaming together, so it works.

Devil's advocate time!

Tyranids being a bad codex? I'm sorry, but have you people gone mad? I see all this whining over the Tyranid Codex, and yet I'm really not seeing any real reasoning behind it. Nerfed Carnifex? That's it? In my opinion, nerfing one unit does not break an army. I'll take Warriors as a troops choice over HQ any day, why thank you, especially seeing as you can still take a Warrior (Prime) as an HQ. The codex is quite competitive and far from weak. I know a few players (myself included) who can wreck nearly any army that comes along with their Tyranids. TL;DR, I strongly disagree, and in my opinion, Tyranids are FAR from a bad codex.

Ensis Ferrae wrote:

Illumini wrote:

WTF??

Some gaming groups seem so idiotic. It's a legal codex released by GW, it is good, but nothing is broken in that codex. Space Wolves is a better codex.

from our point of view, think of it this way.. the deepstrike scatters less than any other codex, the vehicles are all fast, and you can upgrade some marines to get fearless and some other abilities... wheres the downside to any of that?? At any rate, since it is a mutually shared view on that particular codex, and we shared the same views on a great many things prior to ever gaming together, so it works.

Well, compared to codex marines: no thunderfire cannon, more expensive assault termies, more expensive units generally, worse psychic powers, arguably worse special characters, no combat/chapter tactics, fearless is generally worse than ATSKNF

Are they better than codex marines? Maybe.. Are they better than space wolves? Probably not.. have you guys banned space wolves too?

Blood Angels is a cool army, it plays very differently from the other marines, it's far from broken, but still strong, it has many cool new units (furioso libby is made of awesome)

It sounds like a horrible knee-jerk reaction to me. Doesn't matter though, as I luckily don't have to deal with such groups/clubs




Tyranid codex is bad because all the serious anti-tank is located in the elite section, meaning you will probably only see 2 of the different elite units and because tervigons are a no-brainer. Carnifex nerf may be annoying for 4th ed nid players, and it was clearly a marketing ploy, but I agree, it does not a bad codex make.

I guess what I didn't like about the Nid dex was that it was the first time we really got to see a largely financial motivation behind changes in rules. Everyone had the (quite excellent I might add) Carnifex model, so it was made to be rather useless in the face of a new model kit which GW wanted everyone to buy. Yes, I know they are a company which exists to make money, but I lost a fair bit of respect for the company at that time.

We have to remember that these are the pressures acting on the writers of the codecies - they are given orders over balance and what must be good and bad, in order to influence sales, and I am sure they would much rather not make some of the decisions they were forced to make. Phil Kelly was lucky in the regard that the DE were essentially a new army - the new kits wouldn't have to compete for the most part against what people already had in their army.

I think its also why so many of the development staff have left the company over the last 5 years (certainly more than I can ever remember in the past, and I have followed GW for the large part of its existence), as I think if there is one thing that the 'artists' among us hate it is to have creativity curbed or shoehorned into a direction by the whims of the bean counters.

The best codex: is either the orks or IG. Reading over units from time to time just gets me amped to paint and to try new army lists

The worst in layout terms, the aword goes to Tau. Although I love the army, having to page back and forth if you dont remember the points cost for things is a pain, as well as the Cyclic ion blaster and the air burst gun are not in the summery. But still love to play the army, my fav in fact

I will get on the CSM band wagon, as I was going to start them as one of my first armys, then read my friends codex and died inside

Pacific wrote:I guess what I didn't like about the Nid dex was that it was the first time we really got to see a largely financial motivation behind changes in rules. Everyone had the (quite excellent I might add) Carnifex model, so it was made to be rather useless in the face of a new model kit which GW wanted everyone to buy. Yes, I know they are a company which exists to make money, but I lost a fair bit of respect for the company at that time.

Commendable. That is quite shady, and I was unaware of this. I'd be pissed off if that happened, but I don't think that would be enough for me to call it a weak codex.

Ok, like The Fragile Breath, I'm gonna play devils advocate as well.

Blood Angels overpowered! I think not. Their troops are just as expensive as any regular marine with no extra abilities except for the fething bad Red Thirst which only goes off on a 1 unless you have Astoroth, but he isn't that great to take in all armies. Yes they have Sanguinary Priests which are probably one of the single best support units in the game, BUT, Orkz have pain boyz, Space Marines have Apothacaries, IG have Medics, and lets not forget that Dark Eldar get pain tokens which can give their entire army FNP and then some. I can only take 9 Sanguinary Priests and thats assuming I don't want any, Terminators, Chaplains, Sternguard, and Furioso Dreadnaughts. No Blood Angels are not overpowered in any way shape or form.

Now as for what is an overpowered and incredibly complex codex Imperial Guard. I'm not even going to go into detail about why they are so overpowered and I agree with ShadowZetki that GW really does have a soft spot for Imperial Guard because their codex is so overpowered. Vendetta's and Executioners as well as Mech Guard lists pretty much explain the overpoweredness of Guard encase anyone was wondering.

I think Space Marines and Dark Eldar are 2 of the best written Codex's in the game.

Chaos Space Marines and Space Wolves are the worst written in my opinion. I think Chaos Space Marines are now as everyone else agrees Chaos Renegades, and Space Wolves is badly written only because every other rule debate I see on this site and hear about at my FLGS is about Space Wolves. GW needs to make a new Space Wolves Codex but instead of re-writing it they just need to add some clarification.

Sanguinis wrote:Ok, like The Fragile Breath, I'm gonna play devils advocate as well.

Blood Angels overpowered! I think not. Their troops are just as expensive as any regular marine with no extra abilities except for the fething bad Red Thirst which only goes off on a 1 unless you have Astoroth, but he isn't that great to take in all armies. Yes they have Sanguinary Priests which are probably one of the single best support units in the game, BUT, Orkz have pain boyz, Space Marines have Apothacaries, IG have Medics, and lets not forget that Dark Eldar get pain tokens which can give their entire army FNP and then some. I can only take 9 Sanguinary Priests and thats assuming I don't want any, Terminators, Chaplains, Sternguard, and Furioso Dreadnaughts. No Blood Angels are not overpowered in any way shape or form.

i can only speak for myself on this one, but as someone who played Raven Guard, the Vanilla codex described some chapters as the "best" at particular forms of warfare, and the RG have lightning strikes and drop pod assaults.. so, with their SC, Shrike, being in the vanilla codex, how is it that another MARINE army can drop pod or deep strike on to the table better than the one that "specializes" in that form of warfare? It may not be the most over powered codex, but some serious fanboy-ism went into its writing. Bout the only good thing about the new BA is the sanguinary guard box.


I think that, ultimately, how well written or not, a codex is, is largely based on YOUR local gaming community. A tyranid player in your local group/club got severely nerfed by 5th edition? well, that is probably going to affect in some way, everyone's view on that codex. About the only codex that i have seen that has been "universally" excepted as having been made worse is the Chaos Marines dex. I haven't read the new DE book yet, but judging from SOME reactions, it is both good and bad, so i will hold judgement on it until i either read it myself or face it first hand.

Illumini wrote:Tyranid codex is bad because all the serious anti-tank is located in the elite section, meaning you will probably only see 2 of the different elite units and because tervigons are a no-brainer. Carnifex nerf may be annoying for 4th ed nid players, and it was clearly a marketing ploy, but I agree, it does not a bad codex make.

I'm sorry, but huh? Anti-tank being in Elite slots makes the army bad? Hive Tyrants can wreck a tank no problem. Same with a Trygon.

So you need to use a brood of Zoanthropes to deal with tanks, I hardly see how that makes a codex bad when they are at least decent at killing infantry too. I hardly see this as a problem when other things can deal with tanks too, especially not if they're not ridiculously priced, which they are not.

The Fragile Breath wrote:

Illumini wrote:Tyranid codex is bad because all the serious anti-tank is located in the elite section, meaning you will probably only see 2 of the different elite units and because tervigons are a no-brainer. Carnifex nerf may be annoying for 4th ed nid players, and it was clearly a marketing ploy, but I agree, it does not a bad codex make.

I'm sorry, but huh? Anti-tank being in Elite slots makes the army bad? Hive Tyrants can wreck a tank no problem. Same with a Trygon.

So you need to use a brood of Zoanthropes to deal with tanks, I hardly see how that makes a codex bad when they are at least decent at killing infantry too. I hardly see this as a problem when other things can deal with tanks too, especially not if they're not ridiculously priced, which they are not.

The problem is that there is pretty much only one competitive build. 3x3 hiveguard (maybe some zoans instead), 2+ tervigons, fill in the rest. It is boring to play against the same army every time. Lots of cool options, but they are horribly internally balanced. Same with the heavy slots, they are badly balanced: hmm, trygon or carni? trygon or biovore

Nobrainers are bad, mkaaay

The cover is also horrible

The Fragile Breath wrote:Devil's advocate time!

Tyranids being a bad codex? I'm sorry, but have you people gone mad? I see all this whining over the Tyranid Codex, and yet I'm really not seeing any real reasoning behind it. Nerfed Carnifex? That's it? In my opinion, nerfing one unit does not break an army. I'll take Warriors as a troops choice over HQ any day, why thank you, especially seeing as you can still take a Warrior (Prime) as an HQ. The codex is quite competitive and far from weak. I know a few players (myself included) who can wreck nearly any army that comes along with their Tyranids. TL;DR, I strongly disagree, and in my opinion, Tyranids are FAR from a bad codex.

My earlier post detailed most of my gripe. While from a gaming point of view the nids are probably one of the more competitve ones, looking at the army as a whole it just vibrates the same way as the CSM codex. The writers took what was once a great and unique book and instead followed a formula, sucking the life out of it. While there isnt a direct comparison between nids and some other race, there are some parts of the codex that just lost it's luster. Carnifexes are more than just a unit. Pre 5th ed the Carnifex was arguably the symbol of Tyranid power, a hulking brute that was slow but incredibly powerful, to the nids as Dreadnoughts are to Space Marines (try and imagine Space Marines without Dreads). Taking that away feels like the army just did a face-heel turn. There was also potential for the long-lost Pure-Stealer army. The Ymgarl Stealers would have been perfect to fit in with a whole-stealer army, elite of the elite close combat people. Lacking the Broodlord as an HQ Choice, however, took away any chance of that happening. A rather Missed Moment of Awesome in my book. And changing Tyranid Warriors from a whole-brood for HQ to a single Prime Warrior is also a drastic change. Warrior squads were the intermediate between the gigantic Hive Tyrant HQ choice and the smaller gaunts. Now the Warrior Prime is just a SM commander with fancy gear. It's not a matter of game balance, but of the character of the army. An analogy would be giving Tau a Power weapon as standard equipment.

Fluffwise? All 3 of the 5E Space Marine books are garbage. Between "all Spess Mahreens want to be Ultramahreens", "Canis Wolfborne of the Wolf Guard of the Space Wolves, mounted upon his monstrous Thunderwolf Fangir, wielding Wolfclaws, Wolf Tooth Talisman and Wolf Tooth Necklace, Lord of the Wolfkin, bearing the saga of the Wolfkin and known as the Wolf King, accompanied by Fenrisian Wolves..." (yes all of those Wolf references are in Canis's entry), and the Blood Angels "Bloodfist/Blood Missile/Bloodybloodblood, despite being genetically engineered and brainwashed super soldiers we won't fight Necrons that see us as food after a brief truce to fight Tyranids who also see us as food".

Seriously, the 5E SM books are some of the worst garbage I've ever seen in terms of background, reading like terrible internet fanfic.


In terms of best fluff, all the 5E books have been pretty derpy so far, the older books tend to have much better background. The Ork book is great, as are most of the 3E and earlier 4E books. A lot of the newer books started to get weird.



In terms of characterful army list capabilities? Orks and Imperial Guard hands down. Worst has got to be Chaos Space Marines for reasons already mentioned.