Teacher Jay McDowell was suspended for a day without pay after removing two students who said they didn't accept gays on Oct 20.



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DETROIT (AP) — High school economics teacher Jay McDowell says he didn't like where the discussion was going after a student told his classmates he didn't "accept gays," so McDowell kicked the boy out of class for a day.
In return, the teacher was kicked out of Howell High School in Michigan for a day — suspended without pay for violating the student's free speech rights.

The incident has sparked intense debate in Howell, about 45 miles (72 kilometers) northwest of Detroit, over defending civil rights without trampling the U.S. constitution's right to free speech. It's gained far wider attention since a local newspaper released video of a 14-year-old gay student from another city defending McDowell at a Howell school board meeting.

On Oct. 20, McDowell told a student in his classroom to remove a belt buckle with the Confederate flag, the symbol of the southern confederacy that seceded from the United States over slavery, kicking off the Civil War in the 1860s.

She complied, but it prompted a question from a boy about how the flag differs from the rainbow flag, a symbol of pride for the gay community.

"I explained the difference between the flags, and he said, 'I don't accept gays,'" said McDowell, 42, who was wearing a shirt with an anti-gay bullying message.

McDowell said he told the student he couldn't say that in class.

"And he said, 'Why? I don't accept gays. It's against my religion.' I reiterated that it's not appropriate to say something like that in class," McDowell said Monday.

McDowell said he sent the boy out of the room for a one-day class suspension. Another boy asked if he also could leave because he also didn't accept gays.

"The classroom discussion was heading in a direction I didn't want it to head," McDowell said.

McDowell soon received a reprimand letter from the district that said his actions violated the students' free speech rights as well as school policy. It also said he "purposefully initiated a controversial issue" by wearing the T-shirt featuring the anti-gay bullying message.

"I thought it was a really great, teachable moment," McDowell said of his decision to remove the student from class.

Graeme Taylor is among those who agree. The 14-year-old, who does not go to Howell schools, says he is gay and attended a recent school board meeting to praise a teacher who "finally stood up and said something."

"I've been in classrooms where children have said the worst things," the boy told the board. "The kinds of things that drove me to a suicide attempt when I was 9 years old."

Video of Graeme's comments had been viewed on YouTube more than 13,000 times as of Monday evening, when Howell schools held a community diversity forum that district spokeswoman Kim Root said was meant to be a step forward.

"We can learn some things from this episode," she said, adding the district hoped to receive recommendations from the public to improve "the tolerance of the district and enhance diversity efforts we already have in place."

Jay Kaplan, staff attorney for the American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan's LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender) Legal Project, credits McDowell for trying to create a "welcoming environment for all students." But Kaplan said the "teachable moment" would have come if the students stayed in the classroom.

"We believe, based on those statements — as offensive and upsetting as they were — they were protected speech," Kaplan said. "The only way we're going to create a better environment in schools is to start talking about this."

Kaplan said Howell schools have expressed interest in accepting the ACLU's offer to provide in-person training to students, faculty and staff. He said such training could provide a better understanding of what can be said and done.

McDowell has filed a complaint against the district over the discipline he received, but said Monday he primarily wants to "force the school to look at itself."

"I want to force adults to look at what situation we've created," he said. "I would really like us to be more aggressive in our policing of harassing and bullying."

Copyright 2010 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Frazzled wrote:Exactly.

Here's how it should have gone done.

Mouthbreather kid: "I don't like gays."
Teacher: "Quiet mouth breather unless you know the answer to the problem on the board."
Moutherbreather kid: "er..." drools
teacher: "Thats what I thought. Drones do not talk in my class. Now silence or I shall taunt you a second time!"

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Exactly.

Here's how it should have gone done.

Mouthbreather kid: "I don't like gays."
Teacher: "Quiet mouth breather unless you know the answer to the problem on the board."
Moutherbreather kid: "er..." drools
teacher: "Thats what I thought. Drones do not talk in my class. Now silence or I shall taunt you a second time!"

Its BS that they wouldn't stand behind the teacher, even if you don't necessarily agree with their actions you shouldn't suspend them, they lose any sense of credibility with their students.

Frazzled wrote:

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Exactly.

Here's how it should have gone done.

Mouthbreather kid: "I don't like gays."
Teacher: "Quiet mouth breather unless you know the answer to the problem on the board."
Moutherbreather kid: "er..." drools
teacher: "Thats what I thought. Drones do not talk in my class. Now silence or I shall taunt you a second time!"

Its BS that they wouldn't stand behind the teacher, even if you don't necessarily agree with their actions you shouldn't suspend them, they lose any sense of credibility with their students.

As noted, or maybe should have noted I believe he should be fired actually. He got uppity and started an issue about a social issue and then threw a kid out when the kid disagreed with him. Thats not how to properly run a class room. And none of it, NONE OF IT had anything to do with the class material.

Again, the easy way to handle is loserkid says he don't like gays. Teacher says SHUTUPYOUNOTALKINGINMYCLASS! Perfectly acceptable. He didn't do that and got his panties in a bind. Course back in my day the teacher would just sic the class's pet sabre toothed lion on you if you got uppity...

I think the other question is, how did the idiot girl with the stars and bars survive wearing that in Detroit? In the words of the immortal bard:

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Ma55ter_fett wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Exactly.

Here's how it should have gone done.

Mouthbreather kid: "I don't like gays."
Teacher: "Quiet mouth breather unless you know the answer to the problem on the board."
Moutherbreather kid: "er..." drools
teacher: "Thats what I thought. Drones do not talk in my class. Now silence or I shall taunt you a second time!"

Its BS that they wouldn't stand behind the teacher, even if you don't necessarily agree with their actions you shouldn't suspend them, they lose any sense of credibility with their students.

As noted, or maybe should have noted I believe he should be fired actually. He got uppity and started an issue about a social issue and then threw a kid out when the kid disagreed with him. Thats not how to properly run a class room. And none of it, NONE OF IT had anything to do with the class material.

Again, the easy way to handle is loserkid says he don't like gays. Teacher says SHUTUPYOUNOTALKINGINMYCLASS! Perfectly acceptable. He didn't do that and got his panties in a bind. Course back in my day the teacher would just sic the class's pet sabre toothed lion on you if you got uppity...

I think the other question is, how did the idiot girl with the stars and bars survive wearing that in Detroit? In the words of the immortal bard:

*sigh*

Just when I thought I had finally found something that we both agreed on.

Ahtman wrote:If the teacher had kicked the student out because he said he didn't like [see forum posting rules] we would have a parade for him. Since he stood up for another minority being persecuted that is a political wedge issue he gets fired.

Frazzled wrote:

Ahtman wrote:If the teacher had kicked the student out because he said he didn't like [see forum posting rules] we would have a parade for him. Since he stood up for another minority being persecuted that is a political wedge issue he gets fired.

Exactly. Life's hard in the big leagues of High School.

Tyyr wrote:Well it was a chick wearing the belt buckle, go figure.

I do love how the guy called it a great teachable moment, and the way he chose to teach was by throwing out the kid that disagreed with him. Classy.

Tyyr wrote:I do love how the guy called it a great teachable moment, and the way he chose to teach was by throwing out the kid that disagreed with him. Classy.

Ahtman wrote:Of course they said that. It was easy for them to say that since they weren't there when it happened and weren't in the position to have to make any decisions at the time.

Ahtman wrote:

Tyyr wrote:I do love how the guy called it a great teachable moment, and the way he chose to teach was by throwing out the kid that disagreed with him. Classy.

Of course they said that. It was easy for them to say that since they weren't there when it happened and weren't in the position to have to make any decisions at the time.

Ma55ter_fett wrote:Since when do students have free speach in a k-12 school system?

McDowell said he sent the boy out of the room for a one-day class suspension. Another boy asked if he also could leave because he also didn't accept gays.

Tyyr wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Of course they said that. It was easy for them to say that since they weren't there when it happened and weren't in the position to have to make any decisions at the time.

The teacher is the one that called it a great teachable moment after the fact so... I'm pretty sure he was there when it happened and was actually in the position to make the decision at the time. So his teaching methods are either pretty poor or his attempt to recast his actions in a more positive light was really poorly chosen.

Ahtman wrote:

Tyyr wrote:

Ahtman wrote:Of course they said that. It was easy for them to say that since they weren't there when it happened and weren't in the position to have to make any decisions at the time.

The teacher is the one that called it a great teachable moment after the fact so... I'm pretty sure he was there when it happened and was actually in the position to make the decision at the time. So his teaching methods are either pretty poor or his attempt to recast his actions in a more positive light was really poorly chosen.

Well I misread it as being a different person saying that. So obliviously he was there when it happened and was actually in the position to make the decision at the time. It would seem his teaching methods are either pretty poor or his attempt to recast his actions in a more positive light was really poorly chosen. I suppose I didn't need to type all that out once I recognized my mistake because it was obvious, but that didn't stop you from typing it all out once you pointed out what the mistake was even though everything after that was also obvious.

daedalus wrote:I'm torn.

On one hand, there's nothing tolerant about an "anti-gay bullying message," whatever that even means. Free speech doesn't really extend to a classroom environment anymore than it does a workplace. You're not there to talk. You're there to fill your purpose.

On the other hand, however crude the little monster might be, no one has the right to punish them for not liking gays, just as no one has the right to punish me because I like a color/song/political party/religion.

On the other, other hand, ultimately, who cares? I mean, so these kids don't like gays. They don't have to. So suppose they hated people with glasses, or colorblind people. I fit both of those categories. I can't change either of those facts. To that I say, "Oh well. I don't need them to like me." I don't understand why it's not the same reaction. I mean, humanity has already survived this far with us all hating each other.

...
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Kilkrazy wrote:

daedalus wrote:I'm torn.

On one hand, there's nothing tolerant about an "anti-gay bullying message," whatever that even means. Free speech doesn't really extend to a classroom environment anymore than it does a workplace. You're not there to talk. You're there to fill your purpose.

On the other hand, however crude the little monster might be, no one has the right to punish them for not liking gays, just as no one has the right to punish me because I like a color/song/political party/religion.

On the other, other hand, ultimately, who cares? I mean, so these kids don't like gays. They don't have to. So suppose they hated people with glasses, or colorblind people. I fit both of those categories. I can't change either of those facts. To that I say, "Oh well. I don't need them to like me." I don't understand why it's not the same reaction. I mean, humanity has already survived this far with us all hating each other.

...
...

That's like saying there's nothing tolerant about an anti-rape message, or an anti armed robbery message.

"Tolerant" doesn't mean accepting anything at all. It means accepting things which are tolerable.

You're right that you can't punish people for hating gays. You can only punish them for acting on their hatred.

It is very hard for individuals to change people's minds, but society as a whole can do it. All kinds of issues from drink driving to women's rights, non-white rights and homosexuality, are treated completely differently in modern society compared to 100 years ago. It didn't happen without social pressure.

Ahtman wrote:You are an activist Frazz, do you use the word as a pejorative when referring to yourself, or only others? Or do you pretend to have no belief in anything at all points in time and when called upon to proffer up an opinion do you pretend not to have one.

School isn't just Math and Reading, it is society in a microcosm. We also learn how to exist in a society that is not of our own making or our parents.

Kilkrazy wrote:

That's like saying there's nothing tolerant about an anti-rape message, or an anti armed robbery message.

"Tolerant" doesn't mean accepting anything at all. It means accepting things which are tolerable.

Ahtman wrote:School isn't just Math and Reading, it is society in a microcosm. We also learn how to exist in a society that is not of our own making or our parents.

daedalus wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

That's like saying there's nothing tolerant about an anti-rape message, or an anti armed robbery message.

"Tolerant" doesn't mean accepting anything at all. It means accepting things which are tolerable.

I see your point, but he didn't act on hatred. He stated a fact: The kid doesn't like gays. His religion, whatever that may be, said it was bad news bears. I'm not excusing his behaviour though, however much it might appear. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's terribly inappropriate on both sides. It should not have even been a topic for conversation. I don't care if you're gay/straight/asexual/pancakes. That doesn't belong as a topic for school, lest of all at a student/teacher level. Lest of all as part of an economics class. It's about as appropriate as if I, as a hypothetical teacher, stuck up a conversation with my hypothetical students after asking one of them to put away a Yellow Submarine lunchbox, and then giving the two athiests who spoke up a suspension. About as nonsensical as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ahtman wrote:School isn't just Math and Reading, it is society in a microcosm. We also learn how to exist in a society that is not of our own making or our parents.

It shouldn't be.