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I don't remember any reports of the commandos dying.
Perhaps 'immobilized', is no more than a weasel word, but it doesn't seem to be a completely inappropriate term, given the losses incurred on both sides.
Mavi Marmara: 9 dead
IDF commandos: 0 dead
Incapacitate is a better term; immobilize 'suggests' a certain nuance which did not seem present on the deck.
This thread... is... well, I will call it intense. I am not entirely sure what is being discussed at this point, besides opinions about words.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Orlanth wrote:Soldiers testified that in at least two instances their sidearms were taken from them, as were their helmets and vests. Two soldiers jumped off the ship into the water to save themselves from being lynched. Jerusalem Post
So the Commandoes were stripped not only two sidearms but at least one lost his helmet and vest. Isd there any confusion that if the activists actually wanted to kill them they would have been dead. You have knives you have pipes, you managed to get someone armoured vest off, if the goal of the activists was to kill, some comandoes would be clearly have dead. If it was not, why use lethal force.
Why are you assuming that the commandos have perfect knowledge of the situation?
Where was I assuming that?
Where you assume that the commandoes are aware that the activists either aren't planning to kill the commandos or aren't able to kill the commandos.
Orlanth wrote:Soldiers testified that in at least two instances their sidearms were taken from them, as were their helmets and vests. Two soldiers jumped off the ship into the water to save themselves from being lynched. Jerusalem Post
So the Commandoes were stripped not only two sidearms but at least one lost his helmet and vest. Isd there any confusion that if the activists actually wanted to kill them they would have been dead. You have knives you have pipes, you managed to get someone armoured vest off, if the goal of the activists was to kill, some comandoes would be clearly have dead. If it was not, why use lethal force.
Why are you assuming that the commandos have perfect knowledge of the situation?
Where was I assuming that?
Where you assume that the commandoes are aware that the activists either aren't planning to kill the commandos or aren't able to kill the commandos.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Phryxis wrote:Is this dude just ignoring what I say, or what? What should I do differently to get the point across?
You got your point across, I dont agree with it. I gave my reasons why. I respect that you have a different point of view, which is why I took the time to quote and reply to your commenatries over the many pages.
Agreement isnt mandatory, I wont restate my case again there is no point. My arguments hold a logical premesis, its not a logical conclusion you agree with, but that doesnt exclude it from being logical of fair to say.
As for pretty much everything else you wrote, please refer to my reply at the bottom of my previous post to you.
Dogma wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
There is I believe more to it than that. There is a technicality by which you can kill illegal combatants and it is sometimes used to summarily execute mercenaries on site with a veneer of legality. However unless you can source more yourself I will have to give you this one
Article 5 of the Fourth Geneva Convention wrote:
Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict,....law
Thankyou. Let me see if I am clear on this, revised position.
1. Mercenaries have rights but have been executed upon capture by soldiers who would normally hold regular prisoners.
2. There is a argument that mercenaries do not have rights, excusing killing them. This argument is fallacious.
3. Summary killing of mercnaries is a crime, its just that it is never/seldom reported.
4. Mercenaries have rights but no advocates (in cases where execution of mercenaries occured).
It looks like there is no particular legal benefit/side effect in labelling the activists 'mercenaries' in this case.
Wrexasaur wrote:I don't remember any reports of the commandos dying.
Perhaps 'immobilized', is no more than a weasel word, but it doesn't seem to be a completely inappropriate term, given the losses incurred on both sides.
Mavi Marmara: 9 dead
IDF commandos: 0 dead
Incapacitate is a better term; immobilize 'suggests' a certain nuance which did not seem present on the deck.
This thread... is... well, I will call it intense. I am not entirely sure what is being discussed at this point, besides opinions about words.
Fair point but incapacitate indicates imobilised by wounds dealt, which would be unfair IMHO. Some clearly were incapacitated, but not all the commandeos immobilised were. After all most walked out of there, and some were asctivly held down by accounts of the pictures.
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
WARBOSS TZOO wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Soldiers testified that in at least two instances their sidearms were taken from them, as were their helmets and vests. Two soldiers jumped off the ship into the water to save themselves from being lynched. Jerusalem Post
So the Commandoes were stripped not only two sidearms but at least one lost his helmet and vest. Isd there any confusion that if the activists actually wanted to kill them they would have been dead. You have knives you have pipes, you managed to get someone armoured vest off, if the goal of the activists was to kill, some comandoes would be clearly have dead. If it was not, why use lethal force.
Why are you assuming that the commandos have perfect knowledge of the situation?
Where was I assuming that?
Where you assume that the commandoes are aware that the activists either aren't planning to kill the commandos or aren't able to kill the commandos.
I get what you are saying now, but its not relevant if we take the main shootists testimony. He recovered the wounded soldiers before he started shooting. To answer you directly the soldiers who were being immobilised may well have thought they were in deadly danger, this explains two jumping into the sea. Jumping into the sea is a drastic act, but due to the close surround of boats he should have been ok to swim the short distance, the boats would be watching out for that anyway, ganking and pushing a commando overboard is a possible outcome that would not have been overlooked. A commando who jumps from the ship is still out of the fight however abandoning comrades still on board, so it was a drastic measure and would not have been taken lightly.
We have two arguments on this particular point.
1. Were the activists trying to kill commandoes?
2. Were the activists trying to kill or look like they wer trying to kill immobilised commandoes when shootings occured?
I take it as a given we dont know exactly what the activists were doing while shot, they may have been charging with captured weapons, they may have been trying to get away.
What we do know is that if the testimony of the soldiers is correct they secured the LZ and rescued their own captured wounded soldiers there before the gun that fired and killed six activists was drawn. This comando also by his testimony also led the other comandoes who killed the other three indicating it was a subsequent action.
I have confidence that IDF crowd control methods are good enough that once the commandoes had secured their LZ moving against superior numbers armed with improvised weapons without resorting to fatal gunfire is what they are trained and expected to do. Ultimately it is what they did do, having killed 'only' nine of several hundred hostile activists of various types.
That looks brutal but was it Dogan, or any of the victims who died? Shooting the activist on the ground there excessive and he clearly was out of the fight.
However the victim was being shot by one of ther pepperball guns in the picture, not a handgun. From what we know the commandeos didnt bring any lethal, long arms with them. So he was being bullied, you could possibly get away with saying tortured by having the pepperball gun fired at him while kicked down. But I dont see him being killed in this video. I accept the arguments that the pepperball is a non lethal weapon, do you?
Unless there is a handgun behind the commando with the pepperball gun, but I cannot see that.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2010/06/13 12:52:44
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
And this would be fine. I don't mind when people disagree with me.
It REALLY irritates me when people disagree with "not me." You have demonstrated, repeatedly, that you don't read what I write. Please try to understand how frustrating it is to have somebody repeatedly ignore or misrepresent what you're saying, and then blame you for it.
It's also VERY frustrating to have somebody argue nonsense. I can't agree with that either. You repeatedly argued that a single gunshot wound to the back of the head was proof (or a strong indication) of deliberate executions. This is a faulty argument.
There are many things I don't agree with, that you could have argued, which I would have agreed to disagree with. I don't mind disagreement. What I mind is being ignored/misrepresented, and arguments which are logically invalid.
In my humble opinion, your responses to me are comprised, almost entirely, of those two things.
That looks brutal but was it Dogan, or any of the victims who died?
Exactly. Very good question. To claim that video shows the death of Furkan Dogan is laughable. He was killed by 9mm Glock pistols. That commando is not using one. Even if he were firing a pistol, how would we know it was Dogan being killed? We can't see the victim at all.
This video proves very little, except the bias of the people presenting it.
It's clear the soldiers are kicking something. Who (most likely) isn't clear.
Also, the "weapon" in the picture, looks to be a paintball gun. I'm not sure exactly what it is, it may not be a commercially available one, but the soldier isn't using it in a typical fashion. He appears to be messing with the right hand side of the gun... If this thing is a Tippmann, which many of the police issue paintball guns are, it may have a "Cyclone feed" which would be on the right side, and has a piston type arrangement there, which is manipulated if the feed fails to function (I believe, I've never owned one). It appears that the Commando may not be shooting, but actually trying to get the gun to work.
I've seen this exact motion from Tippmann owners trying to fix a jammed gun.
Fair point but incapacitate indicates imobilised by wounds dealt, which would be unfair IMHO.
All of this got me thinking, what the hell did the activists think they were going to accomplish?
Then it occurred to me: hostages.
If they had successfully incapacitated and captured the intial wave of commandos, they might have secured safe passage to Gaza. In fact, given Israel's willingness to negotiate for their soldiers (even their dead bodies), this is one of the few ways to bargain with them, and possibly the ONLY realistic way the flotilla would have made it to Gaza.
Suddenly the $10,000 in cash makes a lot more sense. If they make it to Gaza, they'll be wanted men. While $10k wouldn't guarantee anything, it'd be a very useful thing to have if you're trying to flee Gaza and get back to Turkey.
This would explain both their brutality, but then why they didn't kill the commandos once incapacitated. They didn't want to kill them, they wanted hostages. This is a very standard approach to hostage taking, actually. You brutalize the person so badly they can't respond, then capture them, and worry about fixing them up later.
It's also worth noting that the Israeli attitude on being taken hostage is pretty dreary. They expect to be tortured, they expect people to break under torture, etc. The commandos have said they expected to be "lynched," so perhaps being taken hostage wasn't their expectation, but I think all of them are WELL aware of what a bad thing that'd be for them, and on some level may fear it more than death.
Relapse wrote:Why should I care what happens to people that were filmed dancing in the streets and having a celebration because some terrorists slammed planes into the World Trade Center buildings and killed 3,000 plus of my countrymen?
There was a lot of news footage of streets full of happy Palistinians thinking it was a great and wonderful event.
Because punishing an entire population for having bad political thoughts is immoral and very counter-productive.
Relapse wrote:I take issue with the fact the flotilla seems to be a propaganda ploy and a set up for other ships to endager Israel's security by supplying terrorists with what they need to attack Israel, should Israel have let this flotilla through the blockade.
We've been through four or five threads, some have been quite long, in which it's been explained countless times that the goods blocked by Israel are almost completely arbitrary, focussed far more preventing Palestinian economic development and self-sufficiency. You cannot get many products with no military application, such as fishing nets, but you can get fertiliser - which can be used in explosives.
The plain and simple conclusion is that the range goods flowing into Palestine can be opened up massively without any increased threat to Israel. But you still seem unaware of this, and given your unwillingness or inability to grasp this basic point I can only suggest you start reading or stop posting.
Phryxis wrote:I don't see this as any different than anything that's come before. The only potential difference is that Turkey is involved. Otherwise it's the same as always. A big outrage in the media, then forgotten.
On one hand, I agree, the West doesn't seem to ultimately care, because nothing real is ever done. On the other hand, that's how Europe responds to pretty much everything. They talk a lot, and get upset, and then do nothing. So I'm not sure if it's accurate to say they don't care, in that they care as much as they care about anything, which is not very much.
International relations matter a lot, in terms of alliances and in terms of trade. International pressure does matter.
This event has shaken a lot of people's assumption of Israel as the victim, and if it is followed by other events of a similar nature .this event is followed by others that highlight other elements of Israel's treatment of Palestine.
I do not believe that many people know or care about Turkish involvement. They do know that Israel took a very aggressive approach to enforcing their blockade, and from there may have learned a little about the ludicrous extent of that blockade.
It's a long road, but every road from here is a long one for Palestine. Hopefully they'll learn that rocket attacks do nothing for them, but events like the above can lead them a little closer to being allowed decent lives one day.
Well, they boarded them all... And as I understand it, the one where the incident ocurred was the largest ship, so the most likely to be boarded, and the one most likely to be fast roped onto. I also believe that the fast rope entry is pretty standard with Israeli operations like this.
Still, half a million dollars to get some people to attack with pipes? As you said, the mercenary charge is pretty dubious.
I mean, I'm not suggesting for a second that the flotilla was full of peaceful, non-aligned persons, activism doesn't work like that. But the idea that they were paid to fight seems very dubious.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/06/14 04:22:53
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes." - Robert A. Heinlein
Acheron Tomb Legion (shelved until codex update)
Revenants of Khaine Corsair Fleet (2000 and growing)
Blood Reapers Chaos Warband (World Eaters, Iron Warriors, and Death Guard) The only army I actually win games with!
Corvus wrote:Successful Palestinian trolls are successful.
Inane posts are inane.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Corvus wrote:Successful Palestinian trolls are successful.
Inane posts are inane.
just because its a short silly post doesnt make it invalid. Think about it. This is exactly what Hamas and the Palestinians wanted. They send an aid ship through the Israeli blockade, knowing full well how heavy-handed the Israelis are. When the IDF troops board, all they had to do was provoke them into opening fire. Israel did just that. Boom. Instant controversy. The Palestinians know how unpopular Israel is, and that even the US government hasn't been very tolerant of Israel lately. Now all they have to do is sit back and watch as the rest of the world condemns the Israelis for shooting at "peaceful activists", and the subsequent influx of sympathy for the Palestinian cause. As a bonus side effect, they got Turkey, one of Israel's few Muslim allies, super pissed off at the Israelis.
JUST. AS. PLANNED.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/14 04:59:31
"Liberty is never unalienable; it must be redeemed regularly with the blood of patriots or it always vanishes." - Robert A. Heinlein
Acheron Tomb Legion (shelved until codex update)
Revenants of Khaine Corsair Fleet (2000 and growing)
Blood Reapers Chaos Warband (World Eaters, Iron Warriors, and Death Guard) The only army I actually win games with!
Corvus wrote:just because its a short silly post doesnt make it invalid.
No, it was invalid because it contained no content.
Think about it. This is exactly what Hamas and the Palestinians wanted. They send an aid ship through the Israeli blockade, knowing full well how heavy-handed the Israelis are. When the IDF troops board, all they had to do was provoke them into opening fire. Israel did just that. Boom. Instant controversy. The Palestinians know how unpopular Israel is, and that even the US government hasn't been very tolerant of Israel lately. Now all they have to do is sit back and watch as the rest of the world condemns the Israelis for shooting at "peaceful activists", and the subsequent influx of sympathy for the Palestinian cause. As a bonus side effect, they got Turkey, one of Israel's few Muslim allies, super pissed off at the Israelis.
JUST. AS. PLANNED.
Whereas that had a decent amount on content, and is a reasonable summation of the intent of the flotilla, in my mind. When I was talking earlier about the flotilla being a very media event, it was because I read the situation as you did above.
Mind you, I would add 'and ultimately it is a good thing that more international attention is brought to the nature and extent of the blockade, although it is a bad thing that people had to die for that to be achieved'.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Relapse wrote:Why should I care what happens to people that were filmed dancing in the streets and having a celebration because some terrorists slammed planes into the World Trade Center buildings and killed 3,000 plus of my countrymen?
There was a lot of news footage of streets full of happy Palistinians thinking it was a great and wonderful event.
Because punishing an entire population for having bad political thoughts is immoral and very counter-productive.
Relapse wrote:I take issue with the fact the flotilla seems to be a propaganda ploy and a set up for other ships to endager Israel's security by supplying terrorists with what they need to attack Israel, should Israel have let this flotilla through the blockade.
We've been through four or five threads, some have been quite long, in which it's been explained countless times that the goods blocked by Israel are almost completely arbitrary, focussed far more preventing Palestinian economic development and self-sufficiency. You cannot get many products with no military application, such as fishing nets, but you can get fertiliser - which can be used in explosives.
The plain and simple conclusion is that the range goods flowing into Palestine can be opened up massively without any increased threat to Israel. But you still seem unaware of this, and given your unwillingness or inability to grasp this basic point I can only suggest you start reading or stop posting.
I don't want any chance of these people getting weapons. As far as punishing an area for having bad political thoughts, it's their actions that get them punished. If they hate the U.S. they shouldn't expect aid from us either. I'd just as soon see them cut off totaly from any aid shipments we give them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/14 05:25:48
I've not seen any video of any Palestinians celebrating something which can be specifically confirmed to be attacks on America. In fact, there have been numerous questions about the authenticity of the footage you've provided.; notably within the German press.
Regardless, the fact that members of a group are pleased by something you are not pleased by is not a license to continue the practices which helped to create the situation in the first place.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
dogma wrote:I've not seen any video of any Palestinians celebrating something which can be specifically confirmed to be attacks on America. In fact, there have been numerous questions about the authenticity of the footage you've provided.; notably within the German press.
Regardless, the fact that members of a group are pleased by something you are not pleased by is not a license to continue the practices which helped to create the situation in the first place.
Then you didn't watch the news much when 9/11 happened. As far as practises go, if what Israel does keep the terrorists from getting even one missle, I'm for it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/14 05:40:35
Relapse wrote:Then you didn't watch the news much when 9/11 happened.
No, that's not a necessary antecedent given my claims. That may be how you feel, but feelings don't really get us to the truth, or intent of a comment. I don't accept anything that's said to describe a thing without being able to independently verify the claim being made. The fact that even one reporter is willing to dispute the veracity of the footage is sufficient cause for me to declare its authenticity uncertain. In this way I can more easily avoid seeing what others want me to, or what I want to.
Relapse wrote:
As far as practises go, if what Israel does keep the terrorists from getting even one missle, I'm for it.
I was unaware that canned goods were difficult to separate from missiles.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/14 05:46:26
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Relapse wrote:
As far as practises go, if what Israel does keep the terrorists from getting even one missle, I'm for it.
I was unaware that canned goods were difficult to separate from missiles.
Depends on what the canned goods can contain. Anyone that's dealt with smugglers can tell you cans can be opened, emptied then resealed with contraband with little trace of tampering.
Relapse wrote:I don't want any chance of these people getting weapons. As far as punishing an area for having bad political thoughts, it's their actions that get them punished. If they hate the U.S. they shouldn't expect aid from us either. I'd just as soon see them cut off totaly from any aid shipments we give them.
You don't want them get weapons, so you'll continue to support a blockade banning coriander, fresh meat, textiles, musical instruments and newspapers. Good job.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Relapse wrote:I don't want any chance of these people getting weapons. As far as punishing an area for having bad political thoughts, it's their actions that get them punished. If they hate the U.S. they shouldn't expect aid from us either. I'd just as soon see them cut off totaly from any aid shipments we give them.
You don't want them get weapons, so you'll continue to support a blockade banning coriander, fresh meat, textiles, musical instruments and newspapers. Good job.
Once again, it depends on what can be hidden in that list of items. Just a quick look around the internet or chat with police or border patroll agents can show you the way contraband can be smuggled in the most innocent looking of ways.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/14 06:07:23
Relapse wrote:I don't want any chance of these people getting weapons. As far as punishing an area for having bad political thoughts, it's their actions that get them punished. If they hate the U.S. they shouldn't expect aid from us either. I'd just as soon see them cut off totaly from any aid shipments we give them.
You don't want them get weapons, so you'll continue to support a blockade banning coriander, fresh meat, textiles, musical instruments and newspapers. Good job.
Once again, it depends on what can be hidden in that list of items. Just a quick look around the internet or chat with police or border patroll agents can show you the way contraband can be smuggled in the most innocent looking of ways.
Why don't you just cut the gak and go back to advocating that they all be killed like you used to do in these threads. Thats essentially all you're doing here, you aren't even hiding it very well. Consistently advocating the denial of basic necessities to a people, especially when basic foodstuffs are among them, is paramount to denying them life. The idea that you're doing it as some sort of method of containment is even more laughable. Seriously, does it not occur to you that you are raising a generation of dedicated enemies by denying them basic amenities? It's foolish, self destructive, and frankly idiotic.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/14 06:15:34
----------------
Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Relapse wrote:
Depends on what the canned goods can contain. Anyone that's dealt with smugglers can tell you cans can be opened, emptied then resealed with contraband with little trace of tampering.
I can't think of a single rocket that would fit in a food can, even a very large one. Bullets, and small guns, sure. But it would be relatively easy to inspect for those things in the course of normal enforcement given that Israel has control over 3 of the 4 access points in Gaza.
In any case, contraband lists aren't about totally preventing the receipt of weapons, they're about restricting access to them, and controlling the population to be subject to the restrictions.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Relapse wrote:
Depends on what the canned goods can contain. Anyone that's dealt with smugglers can tell you cans can be opened, emptied then resealed with contraband with little trace of tampering.
I can't think of a single rocket that would fit in a food can, even a very large one. Bullets, and small guns, sure. But it would be relatively easy to inspect for those things in the course of normal enforcement given that Israel has control over 3 of the 4 access points in Gaza.
In any case, contraband lists aren't about totally preventing the receipt of weapons, they're about restricting access to them, and controlling the population to be subject to the restrictions.
C4, detonators, and a host of similar items could be put into those cans with what ever it took to give them a similar weight and feel to the original canned good. Just look at the precautions airlines take on items being carried on to give you an idea what someone determined to kill people can use to smuggle things onto a plane.
Everything cannot be caught, so Israel takes a safer option for it's citizen's safety and prohibits items that could be used to smuggle contaband.
Israeli inspections are far more stringent than those that occur when going on a plane, the two cases are not directly comparable; primarily due to the active separation of goods and people that goes on at the Gaza border.
Moreover, if safety is the center of the issue, the Israel would remove several items from its list of permitted goods; fertilizer being the most obvious.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
Relapse wrote:Once again, it depends on what can be hidden in that list of items. Just a quick look around the internet or chat with police or border patroll agents can show you the way contraband can be smuggled in the most innocent looking of ways.
You're obviously struggling with the concept so I'll type this slowly;
It is simply nonsensical to pretend that the blockade is there to stop weapons getting in to Palestine. You don't ban musical instruments and newspapers because someone might have put a detonator in the comics section. You do it because you want to punish people for voting in Hamas. You don't ban live animals because you're worried about someone putting a pistol in it's ass, you do it because you want to prevent Palestinian economic development. There is nothing stopping the IDF from searching containers of ginger, it would surely be what they do when pepper is allowed in (pepper is allowed, while coriander is not). If your priority is explosives then you don't allow fertiliser, but that is allowed.
The Israeli newspaper Haaretz has reported the Israeli line for the embargo is "no prosperity, no development, no humanitarian crisis." That is, they will make the Palestinians poor and miserable, but up to but not including starvation. Because Israel doesn't like Hamas.
Now, it's certainly sensible for Israel to like Hamas. There's even an argument (albeit a weak one) that the quarantine is needed to get rid of Hamas. But it is a product of nothng but wilful ignorance to pretend the blockade is about stopping weapons getting into Palestine. You need to accept this, stop your silliness and move on to a debating point with some merit behind it.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
This event has shaken a lot of people's assumption of Israel as the victim
Really? I mean, REALLY?
Perhaps the coverage where you're living is different, but in the US, it's standard. They covered it for a few days, then forgot about it. There's periodic scholarly articles on what these means for Israeli-Turkish relations, but the concensus is "it will hurt their relations, but not really."
I also don't think that THAT many people see Israel as the victim. I think the standard view is it sucks for everyone involved.
Hopefully they'll learn that rocket attacks do nothing for them, but events like the above can lead them a little closer to being allowed decent lives one day.
Hopefully...
But my feeling is that both sides view this conflict as an industry.
There's a lot of money and influence outside of Palestine that will come in to sufficiently anti-Israeli leadership. There's literally NO useful industry for Palestinains BESIDES being a thorn in Israel's side. If they're not doing that, the other Arab/Muslim states have shown that they're glad to kill the Palestinians themselves.
Similarly, the conflict allows Israel to take in considerable foreign aid, and also to enforce the "purity" of their society in a way that might otherwise be frowned upon. It's also generally congruent with their worldview to expect to be attacked.
Still, what's sad about the situation is that the Palestinians, who suffer the most for this situation, have the most pressure on their leadership to perpetuate it. Think about their electoral situation... A candidate that says "I will make peace with Israel" is neither believed, nor particularly popular. The one that can bring in money and weapons from external forces will win. That just perpetuates the situation.
Still, half a million dollars to get some people to attack with pipes? As you said, the mercenary charge is pretty dubious.
As I said in the last post, the only decent reason I can think that the money was given to them was either to give them capital to use to escape Gaza. That, I guess they might have been expected to give it to the Palestinians.
Also, while I agree that $500k is a lot, it's still possible... Also, it may be a mistranslation, or perhaps they meant to say that the 50 men had $10k between them. So, who knows. It could certainly be falsified, but it seems like an odd thing to make up. The Israelis don't strike me as fabricators or liars, they just strike me as being fond of spin and rhetoric. Lying seems less cautious than they tend to be.
Take the whole nuclear weapon issue. They don't say "we don't have any." They just refuse to talk about it.
But the idea that they were paid to fight seems very dubious.
I agree, I think there are plenty of people willing to do the job for free. But as I've said, I think they still could have had money for reasons other than simple payment.
Successful Palestinian trolls are successful.
What's odd about this deal is that, as Israeli "misdeeds" go, this one strikes me as one of their most valid. They've overreacted pretty badly on Palestinians many, many times. Invading Lebanon was a pretty aggressive move for fairly minor reasons. By comparison, shooting people who are attacking you with metal pipes and stolen guns is really pretty justified.
I assume it's the death of non-Palestinians that make it a big deal. As I said above, for all the pretend concern for the Palestinians, the Arab/Muslim states really just hate Israel. They'd gladly kill all the Palis if they could take the Israelis out with them.
The fact that even one reporter is willing to dispute the veracity of the footage is sufficient cause for me to declare its authenticity uncertain.
Thus making you a global warming denier? Just kidding.
banning coriander
You and the spices... What's the deal, did you start a business trying to ship spice racks into Gaza, only to be thwarted by Israeli policy?
Perhaps the coverage where you're living is different, but in the US, it's standard. They covered it for a few days, then forgot about it. There's periodic scholarly articles on what these means for Israeli-Turkish relations, but the concensus is "it will hurt their relations, but not really."
I also don't think that THAT many people see Israel as the victim. I think the standard view is it sucks for everyone involved.
Really, albeit only from personal experience, but I've found the general assumption is that Israel is battling for survival therefore blah blah. In the wake of this event those same people were a little more open to the idea that maybe that narrative didn't really apply any more.
And the US probably isn't as relevant as most people assume. Surely, they've got Israel's back and that's a factor, but peace can still happen despite their position, and it can fail even if the US took a more neutral position.
Hopefully...
But my feeling is that both sides view this conflict as an industry.
There's a lot of money and influence outside of Palestine that will come in to sufficiently anti-Israeli leadership. There's literally NO useful industry for Palestinains BESIDES being a thorn in Israel's side. If they're not doing that, the other Arab/Muslim states have shown that they're glad to kill the Palestinians themselves.
Well, there was useful industry, not a lot, it's never been a rich area, but it did exist. But what industry there was was basically killed outright by the blockade.
There is an issue that moneyed interests on both sides benefit from the current state of affairs, but I don't think that's enough of a factor to keep this as a permanent state of affairs.
But I don't think that's as big a factor as the settlements in determining Israeli policy. There's also the issue that they're doing this because they left Gaza and that didn't stop the attacks, so what else can they do (which is a flawed idea, but a sympathetic one). Then you add in Hamas coming in to power and Israel being unwilling to deal with them, and you pretty much have current position explained.
The issue, to me, is that the current Israeli response of incredibly tight blockade is unlikely to cause the Palestinians away from Hamas, it's only going to encourage them to support them.
Still, what's sad about the situation is that the Palestinians, who suffer the most for this situation, have the most pressure on their leadership to perpetuate it. Think about their electoral situation... A candidate that says "I will make peace with Israel" is neither believed, nor particularly popular. The one that can bring in money and weapons from external forces will win. That just perpetuates the situation.
Yeah, Hamas is half the problem. One of the real tragedies is that the former Palestinian government was more moderate but hopelessly corrupt. There were good reasons for Palestinians who were not extreme to vote for Hamas. Now with the blockade many have likely been made extreme, and will vote for Hamas even if a viable moderate option existed.
As I said in the last post, the only decent reason I can think that the money was given to them was either to give them capital to use to escape Gaza. That, I guess they might have been expected to give it to the Palestinians.
It was probably to be given to Palestinians to purchase further supplies, maybe through smuggling tunnels, maybe legal aid. Whether those supplies would have been for living or for killing is unknown. But Israeli news media claiming it established them as mercenaries is, well, typical of certain Israeli new media outlets. There's a lot of excellent Israeli sources, and the freedom granted to the press there is among the best in the world (putting it miles above the rest of the region) but with that freedom comes diversity of individual outlets.
Israeli media can't be viewed in the same light as other Arabic media, because all Saudi or Iranian media will follow the state line. I can read a Saudi piece and adjust for the Saudi bias. But in Israeli media there's genuine diversity, and while I know my FOX from my CNN and can adjust for each, it's harder to do with Israeli media because I don't know the individual outlets.
But I saw that story claiming they were mercs and thought it made no sense.
Also, while I agree that $500k is a lot, it's still possible... Also, it may be a mistranslation, or perhaps they meant to say that the 50 men had $10k between them. So, who knows. It could certainly be falsified, but it seems like an odd thing to make up. The Israelis don't strike me as fabricators or liars, they just strike me as being fond of spin and rhetoric. Lying seems less cautious than they tend to be.
Sure, I'm not doubting $500k could have been amongst them, it's pretty small fries in terms of aid programs. I was just doubting it as a payment to defend the boat.
I agree, I think there are plenty of people willing to do the job for free. But as I've said, I think they still could have had money for reasons other than simple payment.
Cool, we agree.
What's odd about this deal is that, as Israeli "misdeeds" go, this one strikes me as one of their most valid. They've overreacted pretty badly on Palestinians many, many times. Invading Lebanon was a pretty aggressive move for fairly minor reasons. By comparison, shooting people who are attacking you with metal pipes and stolen guns is really pretty justified.
Sure, I agree that this isn't close to the top of Israel's misdeeds. I think the difference is the Lebanon and Gaza operation were in the wake of rocket attacks, this was just boats floating towards a port to make a demonstration about how gak the blockade is.
As I said above, for all the pretend concern for the Palestinians, the Arab/Muslim states really just hate Israel. They'd gladly kill all the Palis if they could take the Israelis out with them.
There was no Palestinian identity before occupation, their living standards certainly weren't of any concern to the surrounding nations before Israel was created. The Arab Palestinians were expected to move out of the region, and one of the reasons they didn't is because the other Arab countries wouldn't take them. They didn't take them in part because the Arab nations couldn't absorb that many people, but in large part because they became a stick to beat Israel with. Which is certainly a gak thing to have done.
But the dubious moralising of the other Arab nations doesn't really matter. What matters is how poorly those 4 million Palestinians are being forced to live.
You and the spices... What's the deal, did you start a business trying to ship spice racks into Gaza, only to be thwarted by Israeli policy?
It's a pretty good example of how specific and petty the blockade is.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Embedding is cool. I question why the vide cuts out at certain times. I've also noticed a lot of those pipes are sticks, there were a few utility knives, and more than one slingshot. The video didn't actually show particularly much and it cuts out around the time of the actual action much the same way that the israeli one does.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/06/14 18:27:38
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Personally I never knew the Klingons were involved in the Gaza conflict. Imagine my shock.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!