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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/05 08:46:52
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
And while this goes on, the Rachel Corrie has ignored the third request to divert to Ashdod to have the aid inspected--and a barrage of rockets was fired from Gaza into the Western Negev region.
The french resistance did more than that in the last war
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
The Rachel Corrie - sadly to say - is the worst example of a real-life Troll. That's right kids.
This has turned from a peaceful Aid movement to them simply disobeying completely sane and reasonable orders from the IDF to be searched when thousands of rockets are fired, using material sourced from outside, into Israel.
"And what is wrong with their life? What on earth is less reprehensible than the life of the Levovs?"
- American Pastoral, Philip Roth
Oh, Death was never enemy of ours!
We laughed at him, we leagued with him, old chum.
No soldier's paid to kick against His powers.
We laughed - knowing that better men would come,
And greater wars: when each proud fighter brags
He wars on Death, for lives; not men, for flags.
Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men. Welcome to Fantasy 40k
If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.
Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
Boarded to be 'searched'. if that was all that was going to happen that would be ok.
The Rachel Corrie is carrying school supplies and cement. Why is it carrying those? Because those items are forbidden from entry into Gaza.
Cement is too good for them Palestinians apparently. Cement allows the people of Gaza to rebuild, and building materials are forbidden because when something is taken down the Israelis dont want to being rebuilt.
The embargo list allows wood for replacing door and windows, but not wood for construction. So you cannot rebuild a house but you can replace a door.
This isnt about stopping terrorism, this is about denying the people of Gaza the basic amenities in order to carry on their lives, in the hope that they give up and leave.
The White House urged the Rachel Corrie to go to Ashdod and hand over its cargo to the Israelis for transportation along with regular aid. This is Obamas way to pretend to make a form of peaceful intervention. But what would happen if the ship did. The Israelis would take one look at the cargo and prevent its package from leaving the dock. It probably wouldnt go to waste, but giving free cement to the Israelis is likely not what the Irish were intending when they donated the supply.
a legal embargo has to have legal purpose and be proportional. If the ship was running guns then my whole opinion on what is goin on would be reversed. I would even have some sympathy for the Israeli commasndoes who shot nine people, but this group is well accreddited and monitored. Everyone knew they were coming, everyone knew they had humantiraian supplies. if guns were found we would have been shown them already. the Israelis showed pcitures of the weapons fiound, some kitchen knifes, batons and a sledgehammer. All of which are standared shipping tools and not in any way unusual in any ship of that size.
As for these 'thousands of missiles' being fired. are you frikking joking, the fact they are fired at all is bad enough, but you cannot m ake peace with everyone, just as you cannot completely stop the violence in Northern Ireland, even now. The only time we see 'thousands of missiles being launched is when one of the trckle the Arabs fire actually hits someone. Are those missiles all fired at terrorists? No. Unless you have it in your mind to assume everyone in Gaza is a terrorist. If you look at the rhetoric used to describe the activists on the ships attacked recently and then looked at the proflies of who actually was on those ships then perhaps Israel does blanket consider Palestinains terrorists to be shot. After all the 'terrorists' on board the boat where nine people died, the the rhetoric used in the Jeruslame post did label everyone on that ship a terrorist included a retired US ambassador. Funny looking terrorist.
If firing missiles of itself was the big issue, as opposed to who fired thanm and at whome then Israel has more terrorists than anyone, after all with all the rhetoriic against Iran and Iraq the concept of 'state terror' is now established.
Its time to end this sorry mess. But they wont when the US will do nothing positive and a who lot of vetoing when asked. And the US will do nothing because it can do nothing. Its bad enough myself and others here being labelled by frantic apologists, an elected official can't afford that type of controversy.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
And whilst you're pointing and shouting at the boogeyman in the corner, you're missing the burglar coming in through the window.
Well, Duh! Because they had a giant Mining ship. If you had a giant mining ship you would drill holes in everything too, before you'd destory it with a black hole
You know, I found myself thinking Orlanth had a point. Then he started on the missilies Hamas lobs to periodically kill people, and showed himself completely devoid of all sympathy for those who get killed by them, and the whole reason the blockade was established in the first place.
Now I just think he's generally ragging on israel for the hell of it, because that's what the press do. Bravo!
Orlanth, I am not going to get drawn into the whole Israel / Palestine debate that is infecting OT because it is pointless and self-defeating except to say that I personally know someone who lives in Israel, in Haifa and I can assure you there are a lot more rocket attacks (and bomb attacks as well) than the press, and the BBC in particular, would have you believe. And speaking as a former soldier who has done tours of Iraq, I can also assure you that having rockets aimed and landing near you is no fun at all.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/05 18:16:40
I want to state clearly (because some posters have been having trouble with this) that I think rocket attacks by palestinian extremists are completely and utterly wrong. Those doing it need to be brought to justice. HOWEVER I also think the actions of israeli settlers, the blockade, and the previous boarding of a ship in international waters are wrong. There's wrong on both sides here. Israel is the side with the most power, which is why I usually hope they'll try and improve the situation, but it seems to me that their policies will beget more violence as is. It's a terribly sad and confused situation, and I don't think picking sides one way or another is appropriate. I'm not pro- or anti- israel or palestine, I'm just saddened by the seemingly endless cycle of violence and I will not defend or accept policies (such as the blockade) which I think are making it worse.
Hopefully that will make my stance clearer to some posters (such as Frazzled) who are getting agitated by what they see as a lot of anti-israeli posts on this forum.
I also think that this discussion is really very valuable, as long as we can all keep our heads. For that reason I appreciate the many measured and carefully thought out posts being made by people on both sides, and would respectfully ask that people who are feeling angry about what they read calm down before posting if possible. I'd hate to see this debate censored.
Ketara wrote:You know, I found myself thinking Orlanth had a point. Then he started on the missilies Hamas lobs to periodically kill people, and showed himself completely devoid of all sympathy for those who get killed by them, and the whole reason the blockade was established in the first place.
Now I just think he's generally ragging on israel for the hell of it, because that's what the press do. Bravo!
Not really fair.
What I am hearing a lot, on this threat and elsewhere because some in Hamas are firing rockets there can be no sympathy for Palestinians. That would like like justifying laying waste to Belfast because of the IRA.
I made the point of pointing out that had the flotilla actually been carrying arms then I would have not only little sympathy for the acticvists, they would be at best dupes but would have some sympathy for the soldeirs who shot them. As it so happens I am getting noting remotely resembling remorse for shooting these people, denying the wounded medical attention etc etc. As the recent campaign on Gaza indicates how it is now policty to wage grossly disproportionate action I have little choice but to wonder if the shooting were in fact intended to send a lesson.
History has proven thast Israel can do as it pleases. one of the flotilla was on the US intelligence ship the Israelis bombed in 1967 at the cost of 37 US servicemens lives. Some people were angry for a while, but the US went right back to supporting Israel and vetoing the UN on request. They know they can get away with this, after all some on Dakka actually welcomed the idea of the ships being torpedoed.
So going back to the Hamas rocket attacks. If rocket attacks are highlighted why such a massive artillery and airstrike retaliation, especially as many if not most of the attacks were aimed at civilian infrastructure rather than any specifically identified terrorists. Its just the same and beggars belief that it is supported. if it were any other nation it wouldnt be. What is the difference than the blast of a Hamas rocket or the blast of a bomb from and IAF jet or army shell, except that there are a whole lot more and they tend to hit targets more often.
Ketara, you too have a point, I have not gone out of my way to sympathise with those Israelis who have lost family members to terrorism, but that is not for any lack of sympathy, but from an emphasis elsewhere. So say an Israeli child gets hit by a rocket. Yes thats trajic, but what happens next? Airstrikes resulting in approx a 100:1 casualty rate. The people who fire the rockets are individual scum. The people who order the mass slaughter in retaliation are in a matter worse as they pass what they do off as 'justice'. You think the airstrikes hit terrorists, they might hit some but they also hit families, schools, streets, markets. There is little evidence to suggest they actually target terrorists to begin with, but just slam the infrastructure and hope to catch some in the blast.
If I focus on the hundred innocents killed rather than the one, is that wrong?
If you want to spare that one life, stop oppressing the hundred, give them something else to do other than hate, starve or die. They have no hope, so no wonder Hamas is popular. They have a great deal of anger and because of massive retaliation problably each know people who were lost due to airstrikes, people underserving of death. are you surpirsed they pick up rockets. I am not.
After Bloody Sunday IRA recruitment mushroomed, furthermore a lot of the press ceased to crtique terror. This from one and one one slip up causing mass civilians deaths, a good record allowing for the lwength of th troubles. Every sunday is Bloody Sunday in Gaza, yet it is expected that the victims and not the armed forces shooting or bombing them carry the blame. Totally disproportionate.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/05 19:20:36
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Israel has no reason to loosen up their policies--as clearly evidenced by the fact that even when the world is giving Israel the big "tut-tut" and the limelight is focused on the region, the Palestinians launch a barrage of rockets aimed at an area with no military significance.
The image Hamas feeds the world of being a "peaceful organization" is a farce when they do nothing more than bomb civilian areas--often times resulting in more Palestinian deaths than Israeli.
And yet, somehow they still get support because when Israel cracks down on Hamas activities, they have to curtail the activities of the Palestinians themselves due to the nature of how Hamas fights(no uniformed combatants, no adhering to assaulting military targets, etc).
Nobody on the boards has claimed that Hamas are a peaceful organisation. That doesn't mean Israeli policy is right or humane or going to end well or stop the violence.
Yeah, but...well, what the hell does that have to do with anything? Nobody with any sense believes them. It's pretty well accepted that they are a nasty and violent organisation. Nasty and violent conditions tend to favour nasty and violent organisations.
Do we know for certain that's all that was carried on those vessels?
Nope.
Cement can easily be used to construct roadblocks and reinforce bomb factories against airstrikes, by the by.
Which is another thing that irks me.
Israel shouldn't use airstrikes or artillery? Please. There's a reason they engage the last known location of a launcher that fired a barrage with weapons that don't require soldiers to be on the ground.
Simply put? The Palestinians rig the areas with booby traps.
Kanluwen wrote:Israel has no reason to loosen up their policies--as clearly evidenced by the fact that even when the world is giving Israel the big "tut-tut" and the limelight is focused on the region, the Palestinians launch a barrage of rockets aimed at an area with no military significance.
Again what would you do if your town was bombed. How angry were you after 9/11? If you want to stop the rockets stop the oppression. Palestinains do not have any option except to fight, they are given noth8ng and what little they have is taken away. Bulldozers can turn up at any tyime and take away their homes. Compensation, you got to be kidding, they are lucky to be given five minutes warning. If you were given five minutes warning to get out of your home because you were an unwelcome minority and your home was bulldozed by the government would you be angry?
How angry would you have to be before you started wanting to get even?
This is what people repeatedly fail to understand to fight terrorism you have to have a higher moral bar than the terrorists. They have the power and the responsibility, fail in that responsbility and you breed a new generation of vehement opposition.
Kanluwen wrote:
The image Hamas feeds the world of being a "peaceful organization" is a farce when they do nothing more than bomb civilian areas--often times resulting in more Palestinian deaths than Israeli.
No Hamas are not peaceful, but they are the democratically elected representatives like it or not. Is Netanyahu and his Likud party peaceful? Hell no, but we deal with them.
I will admit that Likud changed its policy to support in principle, autonomy for Palestinians within Israel, wheras Hamas policy has not changed from an uncompromising position. Though again if the siege stops and the disproportionate violence stops this may change. Note I just said disproportionate violence. If Israel tries a strike for strike policy trying its best to only hit those that need eliminating much of the criticism would go away.
The IRA were quite firm on their policy that the Uk should be kicked out of Northen ireland, but they were able to be brought to the table alongside loyalist groups and others. They were convinced to change thier minds, evertyone compromised, noone got exactly what they wanted. Peace is still possible, but Hamas must at some stage be negotiated with. The only alternative would be a slow motion 'final solution' for the Palestinian problem, and some beleive that is what Israeli hardliners want and it is not unindicative by what they are doing. This angers be more than anything else, the people who say 'never again' should not be seen put another people group through such an ordeal.
Kanluwen wrote:
And yet, somehow they still get support because when Israel cracks down on Hamas activities, they have to curtail the activities of the Palestinians themselves due to the nature of how Hamas fights(no uniformed combatants, no adhering to assaulting military targets, etc).
A tough one, but it is manageable. The Troubles are over, but we lost more soldiers than the IRA lost terrorists. there is a bill to pay. The trouble is the attitude in israel is kill one of us we will slaughter many of you. The price is not paid and peace gets further away.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:Do we know for certain that's all that was carried on those vessels?
Nope.
Agreed we dont know the minutiae but others do. The activists wanted the cargos inspected, thats why they brought press along and Noble Peace Prize winner and a US ambassador and an author etc etc. Do you think an ambassador would put his name to a peacful aid effort if he didnt check it himself or with others.
Kanluwen wrote:
Cement can easily be used to construct roadblocks and reinforce bomb factories against airstrikes, by the by.
It could also rebuild the schools the pencils were to be sent to.
Kanluwen wrote:
Which is another thing that irks me.
Israel shouldn't use airstrikes or artillery? Please. There's a reason they engage the last known location of a launcher that fired a barrage with weapons that don't require soldiers to be on the ground.
Simply put? The Palestinians rig the areas with booby traps.
Thats why you need decent troops on the ground. Dont beleive they cannot do it, they do do it every day in fact. Airstrikes do not solve policing problems, only infatry does.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/05 19:46:38
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Orlanth, the problem is that neither the PLO or Hamas has ever negotiated in good faith. Nearly every loosening of restrictions was followed by more violence.
Israel doesn't fully have the western aversion to disproportionate violence, good or bad.
I agree that any solution requires Israel to loosen their grip, they've simply learned over and over that doing so means they lose lives. And not the lives of soldiers or police, but civilians. I don't feel comfortable telling a state that they need to suck up dozens or hundreds of deaths.
Relapse wrote:RIP to all the Israelis killed by rocket and terrorist attacks coming from Gaza over the years.
And RIP the roughly one hundred Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed due to the indiscriminate destruction caused by the IDF in response to every rocket attack. You're rooting for the wrong team in that instance, likely due to some sense of ignorance concerning the reality of the situation.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:And while this goes on, the Rachel Corrie has ignored the third request to divert to Ashdod to have the aid inspected--and a barrage of rockets was fired from Gaza into the Western Negev region.
Those poor, poor peaceful Palestinians.
Yeah, it's as if they think they're fighting for some sort of cause. I mean, what have the Israelis ever done to them?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/05 20:21:58
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Relapse wrote:RIP to all the Israelis killed by rocket and terrorist attacks coming from Gaza over the years.
And RIP the roughly one hundred Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed due to the indiscriminate destruction caused by the IDF in response to every rocket attack. You're rooting for the wrong team in that instance, likely due to some sense of ignorance concerning the reality of the situation.
It is time we are an seen to say RIP to both.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Relapse wrote:RIP to all the Israelis killed by rocket and terrorist attacks coming from Gaza over the years.
And RIP the roughly one hundred Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed due to the indiscriminate destruction caused by the IDF in response to every rocket attack. You're rooting for the wrong team in that instance, likely due to some sense of ignorance concerning the reality of the situation.
It is time we are an seen to say RIP to both.
Not really, saying RIP to anything or anyone (on an internet discussion) is an unhelpful, contentless, and emotional shorthand method to profess support for one side of an issue while subtly highlighting the failures of another. It's about time people dropped the gak and just started looking at the straight facts of the situation without their giant foam #1 fingers and foamboard signs with flags on them.
It's not like you knew any of the people killed. Wheres your RIP coming from? Faux support and armchair involvement is what's keeping these boat threads from reaching a more moderate and even handed tone.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/06/05 20:32:41
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Kanluwen wrote:
Which is another thing that irks me.
Israel shouldn't use airstrikes or artillery? Please. There's a reason they engage the last known location of a launcher that fired a barrage with weapons that don't require soldiers to be on the ground.
Simply put? The Palestinians rig the areas with booby traps.
That's why you need decent troops on the ground. Don't believe they cannot do it, they do do it every day in fact. Airstrikes do not solve policing problems, only infatry does.
They don't want to put troops on the ground to hunt down launch sites for Hamas rockets for a very simple reason.
The same reason why Coalition forces in Afghanistan/Iraq use armed drones to engage targets in territory not friendly to their cause and EMS crews in gang territory here in the US wear Kevlar vests, in fact.
It's easy to get trapped in a situation that results in a crapload of deaths for what should have been a very cut and dry operation.
You put troops on the ground at a boobytrapped site, someone sets something off--you're a static target and you've lost all element of surprise. The IDF is not stupid in that regard, they learned the lesson that Mogadishu taught modern armed forces.
They don't want to put troops on the ground to hunt down launch sites for Hamas rockets for a very simple reason.
They do? They do do that. They do it all the time. They constantly raid gaza to hit sites where rockets were fired.
The same reason why Coalition forces in Afghanistan/Iraq use armed drones to engage targets in territory not friendly to their cause and EMS crews in gang territory here in the US wear Kevlar vests, in fact.
No, they use drones because it gives them an omnipresent strike and observational capability that mechanized infantry would be totally incapable of matching.
It's easy to get trapped in a situation that results in a crapload of deaths for what should have been a very cut and dry operation.
T Pain said they couldn't get him because he was on a boat. They should have asked T Pain to go with them.
You put troops on the ground at a boobytrapped site, someone sets something off--you're a static target and you've lost all element of surprise. The IDF is not stupid in that regard, they learned the lesson that Mogadishu taught modern armed forces.
No. Thats actually totally incorrect and has very little to do with how the IDF actually responds to rocket attacks. They use infantry all the time to hit sites and attempt to kill/capture militants.
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
Kanluwen wrote:Uh no. The only time infantry go in is with air and armor support.
Yes. Thats what infantry do. It's called a combined arms strategy. They don't turn into helicopters. The IDF doesn't employ purely transformers, and the israeli soldiers don't walk to the launch sites.
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Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad
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