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Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Kanluwen wrote:See, but that's the point. There are plenty of idiots willing to believe they're a "peace" organization.

Look at the morons on the "aid flotilla". How much of that do you think is going to go to the Palestinians, and not the militant arm of Hamas?


There are also many people who believe that being against Israeli action is necessarily antisemitic. We call those people fools, and then move on.

Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
Made in in
[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche






Hyderabad, India

Kanluwen wrote:The only gunshots look like they came from the "peaceful protesters" grabbing the pistols from the soldiers, who were firing Pepperball guns.


So you're saying a 19 year old American kid shot himself in the head 4 times?

 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:The only gunshots look like they came from the "peaceful protesters" grabbing the pistols from the soldiers, who were firing Pepperball guns.


So you're saying a 19 year old American kid shot himself in the head 4 times?


I also find it unlikely that they managed to grab nine of the commandoes guns or that they just traded the gun to the next guy every time someone was shot. It's likely one person brandished or fired a weapon at the soldiers and then the soldiers returned fire into the crowd.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

ShumaGorath wrote:

It's not like you knew any of the people killed. Wheres your RIP coming from? Faux support and armchair involvement is what's keeping these boat threads from reaching a more moderate and even handed tone.


Why are you pointing that one at me? You think that because I decry the violence meted out on the activists you think I enjoy to see others suffer, or an any less sincere that others.
Human compassion drives most activists and critics opinions on the middle east rather than factional ties.
It is as erroneous to consider me a Islamophile as you call me anti-Semitic. In fact from my other threads you might find I am highly critical of Islam. But I am even more strongly critical of senseless killing and suffering.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Orlanth wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:

It's not like you knew any of the people killed. Wheres your RIP coming from? Faux support and armchair involvement is what's keeping these boat threads from reaching a more moderate and even handed tone.


Why are you pointing that one at me? You think that because I decry the violence meted out on the activists you think I enjoy to see others suffer, or an any less sincere that others.
Human compassion drives most activists and critics opinions on the middle east rather than factional ties.
It is as erroneous to consider me a Islamophile as you call me anti-Semitic. In fact from my other threads you might find I am highly critical of Islam. But I am even more strongly critical of senseless killing and suffering.


I think you'll find that you took my post a bit far, you're putting words in my mouth. I said that insofar as you are decrying the loss of life by giving short little 'RIP' eulogies you're serving to pull the discussion down into something that is more base and emotional then it needs to be. You're certainly not the only person that did it and I'm not singling you out. I should have been less specific in how I quoted you.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:The only gunshots look like they came from the "peaceful protesters" grabbing the pistols from the soldiers, who were firing Pepperball guns.


So you're saying a 19 year old American kid shot himself in the head 4 times?


I also find it unlikely that they managed to grab nine of the commandoes guns or that they just traded the gun to the next guy every time someone was shot. It's likely one person brandished or fired a weapon at the soldiers and then the soldiers returned fire into the crowd.


There is an alternate explanation, they never seized guns at all. Its a whitewashed story to cover up a fethed up operation and blame it on 'murderous mercenaries' which is what the most trigger happy commando called the activists.




ShumaGorath wrote:

It's not like you knew any of the people killed. Wheres your RIP coming from? Faux support and armchair involvement is what's keeping these boat threads from reaching a more moderate and even handed tone.


Why are you pointing that one at me? You think that because I decry the violence meted out on the activists you think I enjoy to see others suffer, or an any less sincere that others.
Human compassion drives most activists and critics opinions on the middle east rather than factional ties.
It is as erroneous to consider me an Islamophile as to call me anti-Semitic. In fact from my other threads you might find I am highly critical of Islam. But I am even more strongly critical of senseless killing and suffering.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

There is an alternate explanation, they never seized guns at all. Its a whitewashed story to cover up a fethed up operation and blame it on 'murderous mercenaries' which is what the most trigger happy commando called the activists.


Well yeah, there are plenty of explanations. I find mine to be the most plausible though. It's not like firing into a crowd indiscriminately to bring down one person with a gun is somehow an 'ok' thing to do.

Why are you pointing that one at me? You think that because I decry the violence meted out on the activists you think I enjoy to see others suffer, or an any less sincere that others.
Human compassion drives most activists and critics opinions on the middle east rather than factional ties.
It is as erroneous to consider me an Islamophile as to call me anti-Semitic. In fact from my other threads you might find I am highly critical of Islam. But I am even more strongly critical of senseless killing and suffering.


Was this another weird double post? Dakkas been weird lately.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/05 22:17:35


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

Two things have bought tears too my eyes.
One was a little boy hiding behind some rubble, with his dad. While someone was firing a machine gun at them.
The other was a doll, lying in the rubble of the twin towers.

How many children have too die
Because adults are greedy or stupid.



Its hard to be awesome, when your playing with little plastic men.
Welcome to Fantasy 40k

If you think your important, in the great scheme of things. Do the water test.

Put your hands in a bucket of warm water,
then pull them out fast. The size of the hole shows how important you are.
I think we should roll some dice, to see if we should roll some dice, To decide if all this dice rolling is good for the game.
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

loki old fart wrote:Two things have bought tears too my eyes.
One was a little boy hiding behind some rubble, with his dad. While someone was firing a machine gun at them.
The other was a doll, lying in the rubble of the twin towers.

How many children have too die
Because adults are greedy or stupid.


Roughly 6.7% of them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/05 22:37:24


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

ShumaGorath wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:

It's not like you knew any of the people killed. Wheres your RIP coming from? Faux support and armchair involvement is what's keeping these boat threads from reaching a more moderate and even handed tone.


Why are you pointing that one at me? You think that because I decry the violence meted out on the activists you think I enjoy to see others suffer, or an any less sincere that others.
Human compassion drives most activists and critics opinions on the middle east rather than factional ties.
It is as erroneous to consider me a Islamophile as you call me anti-Semitic. In fact from my other threads you might find I am highly critical of Islam. But I am even more strongly critical of senseless killing and suffering.


I think you'll find that you took my post a bit far, you're putting words in my mouth. I said that insofar as you are decrying the loss of life by giving short little 'RIP' eulogies you're serving to pull the discussion down into something that is more base and emotional then it needs to be. You're certainly not the only person that did it and I'm not singling you out. I should have been less specific in how I quoted you.


Thanks I understand

ShumaGorath wrote:
Was this another weird double post? Dakkas been weird lately.


A copy pasting error thats all.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





London, England

Orlanth wrote: If you want to stop the rockets stop the oppression. Palestinains do not have any option except to fight, they are given nothing and what little they have is taken away. Bulldozers can turn up at anytime and take away their homes. Compensation, you got to be kidding, they are lucky to be given five minutes warning.


Categorically untrue, (emboldened bit). Israel still faces (half proverbial) rockets and support for the people doing this from other countries. Israel still has a whole load of enemies who really, really don't want it to exist. The minor Middle Eastern States, Iran, Pakistan, and Russia all hate its guts. Russia and Iran's unholy little alleigance is possibly one of the biggest threats to world security, merely because if anything happened between Iran and Israel that region, and then most of the world would kick off.

Orlanth wrote:If you were given five minutes warning to get out of your home because you were an unwelcome minority and your home was bulldozed by the government would you be angry?
How angry would you have to be before you started wanting to get even?


"Getting angry" against a major world power is a bad idea. "Getting even" with it by firing rockets into densely packed civilian targets is even worse. The Israelis have got carried away on how powerful they are, yes, but still had to fight for their existence in the beginning - and sorrily for the Palestinians they won. The land they took was taken because they repulsed the Arab incursions, its borders are disputed but nonetheless controlled by Israel in a situation it had the skill and resolve to control decades ago.

Orlanth wrote:This is what people repeatedly fail to understand to fight terrorism you have to have a higher moral bar than the terrorists. They have the power and the responsibility, fail in that responsbility and you breed a new generation of vehement opposition.


This is the vicious cycle. Having a higher moral bar than the terrorists may work over a greater vista - the Coalition's "War on Terror" - for example. When the terrorists control the government of an angry populace a few hundred yards from your country, controlling the situation through gentle, hearts and minds means gets exponentially tougher. Even more when the conflict in question seems to be even more deep-rooted than merely a dispute over land or human migration.

Orlanth wrote:Though again if the siege stops and the disproportionate violence stops this may change. Note I just said disproportionate violence. If Israel tries a strike for strike policy trying its best to only hit those that need eliminating much of the criticism would go away.


Much of the criticism may go away, but the situation will only get worse for Israel. Hamas doesn't stop attacking Israel simply because the airstrikes which cause horrific collateral damage stop. Do Hamas honestly care? I don't think so. I think it's more about their greater aims. Their meta-argument, if you will, against Israel.

Orlanth wrote:This angers be more than anything else, the people who say 'never again' should not be seen put another people group through such an ordeal.


This is true. The situation is not identical, but it does sometimes seem that Israel's taking out a certain frustration upon a minority, because they can. It's pretty crude to simply put it as "They're really quite pissed off because of the Holocaust" but it holds a modicum of truth. This argument between them and the Arab population, condensed into such a ghetto-ised atmosphere as Gaza can't be compared to the Holocaust. It's a longer running, more hate-fueled thing. It's more about religion than about ethnicity, which people can overcome for religion. But that's another matter.

Orlanth wrote:A tough one, but it is manageable. The Troubles are over, but we lost more soldiers than the IRA lost terrorists. there is a bill to pay. The trouble is the attitude in israel is kill one of us we will slaughter many of you. The price is not paid and peace gets further away.


I've said it before in this, I'll say it again. We can't directly compare The Troubles to this. The matters arising are different, the numbers are different, the situations are different. Somehow in this case merely a 'hearts and minds'/'diplomacy' resolution will sort it all. We don't want another intifada, anyway.

sA

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/05 22:52:27


My Loyalist P&M Log, Irkutsk 24th

"And what is wrong with their life? What on earth is less reprehensible than the life of the Levovs?"
- American Pastoral, Philip Roth

Oh, Death was never enemy of ours!
We laughed at him, we leagued with him, old chum.
No soldier's paid to kick against His powers.
We laughed - knowing that better men would come,
And greater wars: when each proud fighter brags
He wars on Death, for lives; not men, for flags. 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Categorically untrue, (emboldened bit). Israel still faces (half proverbial) rockets and support for the people doing this from other countries. Israel still has a whole load of enemies who really, really don't want it to exist. The minor Middle Eastern States, Iran, Pakistan, and Russia all hate its guts. Russia and Iran's unholy little alleigance is possibly one of the biggest threats to world security, merely because if anything happened between Iran and Israel that region, and then most of the world would kick off.


Iran gets more from china at this point IIRC, and a regional war between Isreal and them wouldn't start WW3. It's highly unlikely any major power would back Iran.

This is the vicious cycle. Having a higher moral bar than the terrorists may work over a greater vista - the Coalition's "War on Terror" - for example. When the terrorists control the government of an angry populace a few hundred yards from your country, controlling the situation through gentle, hearts and minds means gets exponentially tougher. Even more when the conflict in question seems to be even more deep-rooted than merely a dispute over land or human migration.


It also doesn't help when you don't actually have the moral high ground. Killing one hundred Gazans for every Israeli killed cedes the highground to the people firing the rockets.

Seriously.

Much of the criticism may go away, but the situation will only get worse for Israel. Hamas doesn't stop attacking Israel simply because the airstrikes which cause horrific collateral damage stop. Do Hamas honestly care? I don't think so. I think it's more about their greater aims. Their meta-argument, if you will, against Israel.


Much of Hamas' civilian support would dry up if israel stopped deserving to have rocket shot at it. Hamas functions via civilian grass roots support which is aided significantly by confusing and seemingly self destructive Israeli policies in the region.

I've said it before in this, I'll say it again. We can't directly compare The Troubles to this. The matters arising are different, the numbers are different, the situations are different. Somehow in this case merely a 'hearts and minds'/'diplomacy' resolution will sort it all. We don't want another intifada, anyway.


The Situation in the UK is so mind numbingly different than this that any serious comparison deserves to have it's owner slapped in the face.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Relapse wrote:RIP to all the Israelis killed by rocket and terrorist attacks coming from Gaza over the years.

exactly. And the women and children killed in bombings and homicide attacks. And the soldiers kidnapped. And the soldiers that died defending Israel from FOUR invasions.

How many will die whe Iran gets the Bomb and combines it with their peaceful satellite campaign or just gives one to Hamas to set off in the center of Israel?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Frazzled wrote:
Relapse wrote:RIP to all the Israelis killed by rocket and terrorist attacks coming from Gaza over the years.

exactly. And the women and children killed in bombings and homicide attacks. And the soldiers kidnapped. And the soldiers that died defending Israel from FOUR invasions.

How many will die whe Iran gets the Bomb and combines it with their peaceful satellite campaign or just gives one to Hamas to set off in the center of Israel?


More innocent Gazans died when israel invaded it last then have ever died from hamas' rockets. But lets not let reality get in the way of your ludicrous and insane rants.

----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Orlanth wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
dogma wrote:It should be acknowledged that Israel does provide a mechanism by which aid can bypass the blockade through legitimate channels. It must also be acknowledged that only about 1/4 of the aid that is intended for Gaza received by the Israeli state ever makes it into Gaza. The West Bank is a different story, of course.

Didn't the Israelis before this whole shebang went down state that the incoming vessels if they diverted to Ashdod the aid workers could accompany their supplies in, provided they agreed to an inspection first?


Inspection means a lot of things including removing contraband, contraband insides such items as livestock, tinned food, fresh fruit, meat and vegetables, tools etc. Basic anything likely to give the people of Gaza a measure of sustainability. it is also delayed to a trickle so that the people are constantly in need. They shouldnt pay those games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote:I guess I'm not sure what the problem is. Absent more facts about the nature of who used lethal force first, I'm not sure how to look at this is any other way than an unfortunate occurrence during the enforcement of a legal blockade.

Borders and Blockades are areas of geography and law in which a person has few, if any rights.


blockades are by definition illegal. Embargos are lergal.

As for who fired first, if the Israelis are so sure they did not why not return the cameras of the activists they arrested. Those items are stolen anyway, being seized from a ship in internatioanl waters and so they should be returnwed. But they havent been. Why. Because the footage might show omething the Israelis dont want to be seen.

The only footage that has been aired is crudely edited and non continuous. Ominous really. They are hiding something, I wonder what that could be.


Elections have consequences. Thats what happens when you elect a terrorist group to represent you and that terrorist group laucnhes thousands of rockets into another nation. If Israel acted like Syria when the Palestianians rose up they would just drop artillery on all the major Gazan settlements until everyone and everything was dead. Timehonored tradition. But because its Israel they are bad.
Sink the ship in deep water. Solves the problem.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





London, England

I should have known when I pressed F5 twice that seeing Frazz then Shuma's names consecutively was not a good thing.

sA

My Loyalist P&M Log, Irkutsk 24th

"And what is wrong with their life? What on earth is less reprehensible than the life of the Levovs?"
- American Pastoral, Philip Roth

Oh, Death was never enemy of ours!
We laughed at him, we leagued with him, old chum.
No soldier's paid to kick against His powers.
We laughed - knowing that better men would come,
And greater wars: when each proud fighter brags
He wars on Death, for lives; not men, for flags. 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Frazzled wrote:
Orlanth wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
dogma wrote:It should be acknowledged that Israel does provide a mechanism by which aid can bypass the blockade through legitimate channels. It must also be acknowledged that only about 1/4 of the aid that is intended for Gaza received by the Israeli state ever makes it into Gaza. The West Bank is a different story, of course.

Didn't the Israelis before this whole shebang went down state that the incoming vessels if they diverted to Ashdod the aid workers could accompany their supplies in, provided they agreed to an inspection first?


Inspection means a lot of things including removing contraband, contraband insides such items as livestock, tinned food, fresh fruit, meat and vegetables, tools etc. Basic anything likely to give the people of Gaza a measure of sustainability. it is also delayed to a trickle so that the people are constantly in need. They shouldnt pay those games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote:I guess I'm not sure what the problem is. Absent more facts about the nature of who used lethal force first, I'm not sure how to look at this is any other way than an unfortunate occurrence during the enforcement of a legal blockade.

Borders and Blockades are areas of geography and law in which a person has few, if any rights.


blockades are by definition illegal. Embargos are lergal.

As for who fired first, if the Israelis are so sure they did not why not return the cameras of the activists they arrested. Those items are stolen anyway, being seized from a ship in internatioanl waters and so they should be returnwed. But they havent been. Why. Because the footage might show omething the Israelis dont want to be seen.

The only footage that has been aired is crudely edited and non continuous. Ominous really. They are hiding something, I wonder what that could be.


Elections have consequences. Thats what happens when you elect a terrorist group to represent you and that terrorist group laucnhes thousands of rockets into another nation. If Israel acted like Syria when the Palestianians rose up they would just drop artillery on all the major Gazan settlements until everyone and everything was dead. Timehonored tradition. But because its Israel they are bad.
Sink the ship in deep water. Solves the problem.


I think you have a serious problem with your inability to understand the concept of mutually shared culpability and blame. More than one thing can be bad you know. It doesn't break your see saw.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
smiling Assassin wrote:I should have known when I pressed F5 twice that seeing Frazz then Shuma's names consecutively was not a good thing.

sA


My short posts are usually flabberghasted responses to insanity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/05 23:28:13


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Relapse wrote:RIP to all the Israelis killed by rocket and terrorist attacks coming from Gaza over the years.

exactly. And the women and children killed in bombings and homicide attacks. And the soldiers kidnapped. And the soldiers that died defending Israel from FOUR invasions.

How many will die whe Iran gets the Bomb and combines it with their peaceful satellite campaign or just gives one to Hamas to set off in the center of Israel?


More innocent Gazans died when israel invaded it last then have ever died from hamas' rockets. But lets not let reality get in the way of your ludicrous and insane rants.

If you ever had facts to actually support any of the crap you type I'd have a heart attack.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
!!Goffik Rocker!!





(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Frazzled wrote:
ShumaGorath wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Relapse wrote:RIP to all the Israelis killed by rocket and terrorist attacks coming from Gaza over the years.

exactly. And the women and children killed in bombings and homicide attacks. And the soldiers kidnapped. And the soldiers that died defending Israel from FOUR invasions.

How many will die whe Iran gets the Bomb and combines it with their peaceful satellite campaign or just gives one to Hamas to set off in the center of Israel?


More innocent Gazans died when israel invaded it last then have ever died from hamas' rockets. But lets not let reality get in the way of your ludicrous and insane rants.

If you ever had facts to actually support any of the crap you type I'd have a heart attack.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War

I know you hate wikipedia, but at this point I really don't care. You're just wrong about almost everything you post and having to hold your hand like this all the time isn't my job. If you want me to teach you about current events and politics I'm going to have to start charging.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
smiling Assassin wrote:Cool it before someone breaks a nail?

sA


Can do.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/05 23:37:21


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
Made in gb
Lone Wolf Sentinel Pilot





London, England

Cool it before someone breaks a nail?

sA

My Loyalist P&M Log, Irkutsk 24th

"And what is wrong with their life? What on earth is less reprehensible than the life of the Levovs?"
- American Pastoral, Philip Roth

Oh, Death was never enemy of ours!
We laughed at him, we leagued with him, old chum.
No soldier's paid to kick against His powers.
We laughed - knowing that better men would come,
And greater wars: when each proud fighter brags
He wars on Death, for lives; not men, for flags. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

1. Wikepdia HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

2. If even true,don't pick a fight with a superior country. There would be no blockade, no incursions back into Gaza, if Hamas didn't keep firing the missiles.

Here's twhy Hamas wants the embargo lifted. Since the embargo by Israel and Egypt, rocket attacks have dropped dramatically. Its actually working. Hamas doesn't want food for the Gazans. Thats already entering. They want the embargo lifted so they can bring in more Iranian Kazzam rockets and restart their bombing of Israel.

And face it. You're ok with that. Because you are willfully ignoring that the embargo has stopped the attacks, that food is still explicitly coming in, then its only reasonable to assume you too want the rockets to launch. You want to kill Israelis.


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Highlord with a Blackstone Fortress






Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

ShumaGorath wrote:

I've said it before in this, I'll say it again. We can't directly compare The Troubles to this. The matters arising are different, the numbers are different, the situations are different. Somehow in this case merely a 'hearts and minds'/'diplomacy' resolution will sort it all. We don't want another intifada, anyway.


The Situation in the UK is so mind numbingly different than this that any serious comparison deserves to have it's owner slapped in the face.


Why is it different. You should see what the IRA other Nationalist and loyalist terror groups got up to. The area is roughly similar sized, the population roughly comperable and make no mistake the populace hate each other. You are right that Northern ireland could not be like Gaza, but Gaza could be like Northern Ireland. All it takes is more restraint. Conversely the major difference between Gaza and Northern Ireland in how they look is theat the Brtish army never shelled Belfast.
Comparisons are valid because the various loyalist and republican groups hate each other in a way that equals what you find in the middle east. Sectarian killings wer commonplace and many terror groups would go out of their way to capture and turture to death members of their opposite factions and also punish people who associated with them. Actually Hamas is restrained compared to the IRA by all accounts. I am yet to hear of Hamas slowly dismembering victims, while still alive, with a blowtorch.
The peace was held, it was nasty and the Army took a lot of casualties in the process, more than was recorded, but it happened and eventually it worked. There is definately a model to be found there that could work for Gaza.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

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(THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)

Frazzled wrote:1. Wikepdia HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

2. If even true,don't pick a fight with a superior country. There would be no blockade, no incursions back into Gaza, if Hamas didn't keep firing the missiles.

Here's twhy Hamas wants the embargo lifted. Since the embargo by Israel and Egypt, rocket attacks have dropped dramatically. Its actually working. Hamas doesn't want food for the Gazans. Thats already entering. They want the embargo lifted so they can bring in more Iranian Kazzam rockets and restart their bombing of Israel.

And face it. You're ok with that. Because you are willfully ignoring that the embargo has stopped the attacks, that food is still explicitly coming in, then its only reasonable to assume you too want the rockets to launch. You want to kill Israelis.



And you're willfully ignoring third world conditions enforced and designed by israel that existed before Hamas was even elected. You are totally incapable of understand that both parties are in the wrong and you're waving your little israel flag so fast you might start flying at any second. Israel kills so many more gazans than hamas kills israelis that it's not even worth talking about and all you care about is noting that israel is right because it's bigger.

Thats kinda fethed up.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2010/06/05 23:44:36


----------------

Do you remember that time that thing happened?
This is a bad thread and you should all feel bad 
   
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Frazzled wrote:1. Wikepdia HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

2. If even true,don't pick a fight with a superior country. There would be no blockade, no incursions back into Gaza, if Hamas didn't keep firing the missiles.

Here's twhy Hamas wants the embargo lifted. Since the embargo by Israel and Egypt, rocket attacks have dropped dramatically. Its actually working. Hamas doesn't want food for the Gazans. Thats already entering. They want the embargo lifted so they can bring in more Iranian Kazzam rockets and restart their bombing of Israel.

And face it. You're ok with that. Because you are willfully ignoring that the embargo has stopped the attacks, that food is still explicitly coming in, then its only reasonable to assume you too want the rockets to launch. You want to kill Israelis.



Frqazzie dont troll posts you mod. Accusing critics of Israel of actually welcoming rocket attacks is fething insulting. Its low, even for you.

n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

smiling Assassin wrote:
Categorically untrue, (emboldened bit). Israel still faces (half proverbial) rockets and support for the people doing this from other countries. Israel still has a whole load of enemies who really, really don't want it to exist. The minor Middle Eastern States,


What does that mean? What minor Middles Eastern states? If you can't be bothered to name them, then either they must not be important, or you must not know what you're talking about.

smiling Assassin wrote:
Iran, Pakistan, and Russia all hate its guts.


Yes, but Russia and Pakistan hate Israel because Israel causes problems with militancy within their borders.

smiling Assassin wrote:
Russia and Iran's unholy little alleigance is possibly one of the biggest threats to world security, merely because if anything happened between Iran and Israel that region, and then most of the world would kick off.


No. Flatly false. Iran and Russia are not aligned, economic agreements are not tacit to allegiance. Russia has no interest in major military conflict.

smiling Assassin wrote:
"Getting angry" against a major world power is a bad idea.


Israel is not a major world power. They have almost no ability to project force.

smiling Assassin wrote:
"Getting even" with it by firing rockets into densely packed civilian targets is even worse. The Israelis have got carried away on how powerful they are, yes, but still had to fight for their existence in the beginning - and sorrily for the Palestinians they won. The land they took was taken because they repulsed the Arab incursions, its borders are disputed but nonetheless controlled by Israel in a situation it had the skill and resolve to control decades ago.


The Arab incursions have nothing to do with the residents of Palestine, unless you see race as a unifying force?

smiling Assassin wrote:
Much of the criticism may go away, but the situation will only get worse for Israel. Hamas doesn't stop attacking Israel simply because the airstrikes which cause horrific collateral damage stop. Do Hamas honestly care? I don't think so. I think it's more about their greater aims. Their meta-argument, if you will, against Israel.


This is true, but the question then becomes: "How do we settle this meta-argument?" Are we going to glass the Arab world? Not likely, so what will Israel do to ensure its security going forward? Fight until it can't fight anymore? If that's the case, why are we nations who depend on oil exports from the Middle East supporting the endeavor?


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/05 23:45:49


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
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London, England

Brilliant.

(EDIT: ^ Not to Dogma, sorry mate, bad timing. To how the rest of the argument degenerated.) V to Dogma.

o Syria, Jordan, Lebanon. Most definately not friends of Israel.

o Israel causes militancy inside Russia? I have yet to see that. True of militancy in Iran, but then again we probably can extrapolate that the USA also does. I realise that I just went round in a circle, but the militancy surely is mutual between Israel and Iran? I can't see the relations getting this bad without both sides being quite intimately involved somewhere within eachother's borders.

o Economic agreements with a power that is generally hated the world over is quite a big deal. Sharing of military technology is also a big deal. And when you get Russian weapons filtered through the middle east, you can tell Iran is involved.

o How are nuclear weapons not a statement of force projection? The middle east is a major region, Israel is one of the biggest players. Of course they are a world power. The USA makes sure they are a world power.

o No, I didn't mean it too much down that vein. Israel increased its landmass something like 300% during the 1948- wars, during vicious counter attacks with the Arab states. During that manouevre they enveloped the Palestinians' land who were also causing them trouble. Problem theoretically sorted for them. It's their dealing with it that fethed it up.

o No idea. Don't pretend to have an idea. I do know however that Northern Ireland is an insultingly bad similarity to draw.

sA

sA

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/06 00:08:01


My Loyalist P&M Log, Irkutsk 24th

"And what is wrong with their life? What on earth is less reprehensible than the life of the Levovs?"
- American Pastoral, Philip Roth

Oh, Death was never enemy of ours!
We laughed at him, we leagued with him, old chum.
No soldier's paid to kick against His powers.
We laughed - knowing that better men would come,
And greater wars: when each proud fighter brags
He wars on Death, for lives; not men, for flags. 
   
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Gathering the Informations.

dogma wrote:[
smiling Assassin wrote:
"Getting angry" against a major world power is a bad idea.


Israel is not a major world power. They have almost no ability to project force.


With all the supposed influence they have on the US+UK claimed by some of the folks around here, you'd think Israel were sitting back tweaking their mustache while cackling maniacally around a cigar and wearing a monocle.
   
Made in us
Dwarf High King with New Book of Grudges




United States

Frazzled wrote:
Here's twhy Hamas wants the embargo lifted. Since the embargo by Israel and Egypt, rocket attacks have dropped dramatically. Its actually working. Hamas doesn't want food for the Gazans. Thats already entering.


Most of the complaints in this thread pertain to the ridiculous restrictions on food that Israel mandates. You're factually wrong, as usual.

Frazzled wrote:
They want the embargo lifted so they can bring in more Iranian Kazzam rockets and restart their bombing of Israel.


Iran isn't the primary source of Hamas weaponry, again, you're wrong.

Frazzled wrote:
And face it. You're ok with that. Because you are willfully ignoring that the embargo has stopped the attacks, that food is still explicitly coming in, then its only reasonable to assume you too want the rockets to launch. You want to kill Israelis.


No, the food isn't coming in, that's the point of much of the criticism here.

Additionally, people in this very thread have demeaned the rocket attacks made by Hamas.

Either you do not read, or you cannot read. This behavior is absolutely shameful.

Kanluwen wrote:
With all the supposed influence they have on the US+UK claimed by some of the folks around here, you'd think Israel were sitting back tweaking their mustache while cackling maniacally around a cigar and wearing a monocle.


They have a ton of influence. Note that more than half of US foreign aid is dedicated to protecting Israel; supposedly a first world nation.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
smiling Assassin wrote:
o Syria, Jordan, Lebanon. Most definately not friends of Israel.


Jordan has a nonaggression pact with Israel, as well as a water sharing agreement. If anything the Jordanians hate Palestinians, not Israelis.

smiling Assassin wrote:
o Israel causes militancy inside Russia? I have yet to see that. True of militancy in Iran, but then again we probably can extrapolate that the USA also does. I realise that I just went round in a circle, but the militancy surely is mutual between Israel and Iran? I can't see the relations getting this bad without both sides being quite intimately involved somewhere within eachother's borders.


Iran is, of course, mutually engaged in hostilities with Israel.

There have been Chechen rebels captured that have stated that Russia's Western allegiance is directly related to their (Chechen) antagonism.

smiling Assassin wrote:
o Economic agreements with a power that is generally hated the world over is quite a big deal. Sharing of military technology is also a big deal. And when you get Russian weapons filtered through the middle east, you can tell Iran is involved.


I wouldn't say its a big deal in the sense that we can begin talking about allegiance, Russia doesn't rush to the defense of Iran on a military level. The US has a free-trade agreement with Mexico, is the US aligned with Mexico? Similarly, the US sells weapons to Venezuela, are we aligned with Venezuela?

smiling Assassin wrote:
o How are nuclear weapons not a statement of force projection? The middle east is a major region, Israel is one of the biggest players. Of course they are a world power. The USA makes sure they are a world power.


Delivery systems are a statement of force projection more so than payloads. Israel is a regonal power, that has the ear of a world power. Israel could not, for example, dictate Indian economic behavior in the way that the US can. The fact that the USA must 'make sure' that Israel is a world power indicated to me that they aren't.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2010/06/06 00:24:38


Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh. 
   
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Adrift within the vortex of my imagination.

Kanluwen wrote:
dogma wrote:[
smiling Assassin wrote:
"Getting angry" against a major world power is a bad idea.


Israel is not a major world power. They have almost no ability to project force.


With all the supposed influence they have on the US+UK claimed by some of the folks around here, you'd think Israel were sitting back tweaking their mustache while cackling maniacally around a cigar and wearing a monocle.


Israel doesnt have that much influence in the UK, but does have enormous influence in the US, particular in Washington and in the media. europe is fairly neutral, Germany remains traditionally silent on all issues regarding Israel. The Uk remains neutral and abstains from some votes as that was a condition of the 1948 treaty, and this manitained neutrality has helped long run as it has allowed thre buiuilding of alliances with Jordan without pissing off Israel in the process. Most western media including the BBC is very fair on the middle east, that doent stop acusations of Arabist commentary however this actually because any media reporting not parroting the Israeli governments opinion <cough> Fox News <cough> is considered Arabist.

IF YOU ARE UPSET BY CRITIQUE OF ISRAEL READ THIS:

Anyway one point I think a lot of Israeli apologists here have missed, despite attempts to explained, critics of Israel are not necessarily hardened Arabists. I think I have found a new way of explaining this. Some people here here out of factional loyalties, this includes most of those who supported heavy responces to the aid flotilla. I do not think there is anyone here who is a genuine supporter of Hamas on Dakka, i am yet to meet one anyway, most critics are simply compasionate humanists who dislike what they are seeing. I think we have assumed this would be understood but I think it now bears further explanation.

Imagine the Palestinians won the civil war in 1948 but there was an oppressed Jewish enclave or two in the State of Palestine, from there occassionally Likud terorists would send rockets into Palestine and the eilte Palestinian army would retaliate brutally. Imagine there was no influential Jewish media or political lobby and few abroad cared for them. Instead the Palestinian Hamas government is buying the American veto in the UN with oil money and has much of the US media's backing and wide popular support. Thus they manage to put a spin on their brutal oppression of the Jews in the West Bank and Gaza and usually it works. Recently an aid flotilla set sail to bring aid to stricken Jews and the Hamas government attacked them under the excuse that they were a cover for or aid to Likud terrorism.

Who would you support? Some who are on the thread for partisan reasons might support one faction irregardless. Those who are critics on compassionate and humanitarian groups would speak out to support the oppressed minority irregardless. I tell you right now that if the boot was on the other foot I would be here posting about how hunded Jews are killed in disproprtionate attacks to one Palestian killed by terroist rockets; and how the people need a chance to get away from the cycle of violence. I suspect most if not all the critics of Israeli policy on these threads would too. Its not about the factions, its about the children, the families, the oppressed, whole communities with futures ruined and dreams lost. They need not be our own kind for us to care for their plight, we need not share their religion, or support the actions they resort to in pained and angry desperation. We care and speak out because it is right to care and speak out.

If the oppressed were Gazan Jews we would speak out for them. This is not anti-semitism, this is not pro-terror, Ismaic fundamentalism or any other horrid label. It's compassion for the broken that fuels our dismay and objection.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2010/06/06 00:36:45


n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.

It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. 
   
Made in gb
Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc





staffordshire england

UN's Gaza aid operation 'to receive £19m from the UK'


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10246418.stm


Belfast protest against Israel Rachel Corrie seizure

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/10246404.stm

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/06/06 00:38:48




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