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People have been pointing to it because: If you *could* buy one separately, it would be undeniable proof that a single Falchion is a ccw, and thus a pair would grant you the bonus attack (in addition to the Falchions' special rule).

Just like people are pointing to existing wargear entries that specifically state that they "count as two ccws." A distinction that has been omitted (or simply forgotten) here.

Or is simply unneeded, as all Nemesis weapons are *automatically* single handed CCW?

Please address this hideously simple point: all force weapons, by definition, are single handed (special ) CCW. You are told you have 2 of them (a pair) - so you get a bonus attack

That's it. Until this can be shown to be incorrect (and after 12 pages noone has even come close!) there is simply NO ARGUMENT that they dont get +2A. None.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or is simply unneeded, as all Nemesis weapons are *automatically* single handed CCW?

Please address this hideously simple point: all force weapons, by definition, are single handed (special ) CCW. You are told you have 2 of them (a pair) - so you get a bonus attack

That's it. Until this can be shown to be incorrect (and after 12 pages noone has even come close!) there is simply NO ARGUMENT that they dont get +2A. None.

^ This

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or is simply unneeded, as all Nemesis weapons are *automatically* single handed CCW?

Yes, they are a nemesis weapon, a pair of nemesis falchions, they are a single handed CCW. Please show where they are two CCWs... or how one falchion is a CCW that is currently defined/named as a CCW.
They are one piece of wargear, all other single pieces of wargear that 'count as two CCWs' have this piece of text, that they give the user the benefit of an additional CCW, or at a stretch instruct us that they are something, like a power first, which has it's own unique entry. This is what NF need or an FAQ, any assertion that a 'Pair' which lacks clarifying text saying it's two CCW, is an assumption. This issue hasn't been addressed in a previous FAQ and there's no reason to say that ‘this piece of wargear counts as two pieces of wargear’.

So by omission, grammatical interpretation and so on, we have established that a "pair" of nemesis falchions is a single, one handed ccw? And by subjectively interpreting 41 power weapon attacks on a charge for 300 points to be a fair price (I really should talk to my Vanguard vets about that) we can say that the single-handed pair of weapon (not a pair of weapons, a pair of weapon) makes sense? Oh dear.

As per the rules, all weapons are single handed unless otherwise stated. Nemesis Flachions lack this, they also lack anyhting indicating that this single wargear entry counts as two CCWS or that amodel wielding it counts as having an extra CCW.

Quite a simple case of following the rules really.

What does the wargear section describe them as?

Falchions.

What does the unit wargear selection give the option for?

A pair of falchions.

Well then if you can get two pairs of falchions to satisfy the need for a special ccw having to have a duplicate of the same type to recieve another +1A, then sure no problem.

Going by that logic, if it's based on my previous statement, then Terminators can only get a bonus attack with lightning claws if they take two pairs of lightning claws.

Nice, but Shiva's not a Terminator.

you need read codexes better again, as in all latest then don't wear PAIRs of LC's - they wear just Lighting Claws. And you can't buy PAIR of LC you can only switch each hand separately

penek wrote:you need read codexes better again, as in all latest then don't wear PAIRs of LC's - they wear just Lighting Claws. And you can't buy PAIR of LC you can only switch each hand separately

How many lightning claws does a Terminator have?

Evidently it has none. It has a single piece of wargear that is a ccw called "lightning claws" doesn't it? Only the upgrades on characters bought individually can have one or two ccws called a "lightning claw" (which is not covered in the brb as it is not "lightning claws")

ChrisCP wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Or is simply unneeded, as all Nemesis weapons are *automatically* single handed CCW?

Yes, they are a nemesis weapon, a pair of nemesis falchions, they are a single handed CCW. Please show where they are two CCWs... or how one falchion is a CCW that is currently defined/named as a CCW.
They are one piece of wargear, all other single pieces of wargear that 'count as two CCWs' have this piece of text, that they give the user the benefit of an additional CCW, or at a stretch instruct us that they are something, like a power first, which has it's own unique entry. This is what NF need or an FAQ, any assertion that a 'Pair' which lacks clarifying text saying it's two CCW, is an assumption. This issue hasn't been addressed in a previous FAQ and there's no reason to say that ‘this piece of wargear counts as two pieces of wargear’.

Really?

Pair of (Nemesis Falchions)

Pair of (FORCE weapons)

Pair of (Power weapons)

Pair of (single handed CCW)

So, that would be TWO CCW then. For the 1000000000th time.

The Entry is "Nemesis Falchions" and you are told you wield a PAIR of them. Pair meaning TWO.

Please address how the above is wrong, or concede that there are two.

Nos, a quick question thats a bit off topic but relates to other similar rules. ie codex and BrB rules.

The basis seems to be that although the description of the NFF is very close to the BRB, it isn't explicitly the same and so therefore isn't the same. As such they gain the +1 for the wargear (Codex) and +1 for two ccw (BrB).

If so wouldn't that mean that Tau Stealth Suits would have a possible 4D6 scatter against artillery? 2 Dice basic, 1 die for 'as if firing at night' and an additional die for being artillery?

Now thats not what it's been FaQ'd as, its been pointed out that the third and fourth die is essentially the same and so should not count twice, so should that not be the same case here?

Cheers

Andrew

I'd say "no", as it says "has +1 attacks" not "has an extra attack"

Here's the thing, Nosferatu, the weapon itself doesn't grant +1 attack, it's the pair that does. This has not been fully dealt with previously, to my knowledge. It is quite clear that you DO get +1 attack for them being two SCCW, as well as it's clear that they get +1 for being a pair as stated in the codex - the big question is "is this bonus the same, or are they two different bonuses that are meant to stack?". The BRB doesn't answer this, nor does the Grey Knight codex.

DevianID wrote:

DevianID, I don't see how the situation is different at all. The only single difference is that the Eldar codex does not explicitly state in each unit entry that it's a twin weapon.
As far as the actual rules entry, they are exactly the same linguistically. "Two of this weapon does this" is exactly what both rules say.

Umm Mahtamori, run that by me again?

Powerblades="Powerblades are twin power weapons fitted to the forearms, enabling the wearer to use both hands freely. Powerblades confer +1 attack and ignore armor saves.//The exarch may also be equipped with powerblades at +10 points."
Chainsabers="A model with chainsabers has +1 attack and can reroll all failed to hit and to wound rolls.//replace both {shuriken pistol and scorpion chainsword} with chainsabers at +5 points."
Nemesis Falchions="The wielder of a pair of Nemesis Falchions has +1 attack//May replace nemesis force sword with one of the following... Pair of nemesis falchions"

So the situations are very different. First, you get 2 Nemesis Falchions. You get one of the Powerblades or Chainsabers. Second, Powerblades take no hands, as part of their special rule. So they are not the same linguistically; the word 'Two' you mention is not in the powerblade OR chainsaber rule, so how can the rules say exactly that? Please, please stop using Eldar wargear to defend any point about Grey Knight wargear... They are not the same!

I'm not arguing for the Eldar codex, I'm arguing that there is established praxis (yes, do see the contradiction with what I wrote a few lines above).

Do note that you're basically alone in arguing that Powerblades or any other special CCW that's not explicitly two-handed is not one-handed. Their rules are different, but the rules interpretation as far as "two of the same special close combat weapons" between Powerblades and a pair of NFF is the same. Either both get an additional +1 attack or neither does.

So far most people have played all other instances of paired weapons as providing the bonus listed in their rules entry - more or less how the rules for Banshee twin blade thingymajig are read. Now that perception might be set to change, depending on how many adopt Nosferatu's rules interpretation, but the question I have for you is yet unanswered - why is it so important that none of the other, excessively similar cases, remain at status quo while the NFF are treated different?

Personally I would go with the old status quo until a comprehensive GW FAQ changed it, as I myself consider the rules to go either way.

Mahtamori wrote:The BRB doesn't answer this, nor does the Grey Knight codex.

...

So far most people have played all other instances of paired weapons as providing the bonus listed in their rules entry - more or less how the rules for Banshee twin blade thingymajig are read. Now that perception might be set to change, depending on how many adopt Nosferatu's rules interpretation, but the question I have for you is yet unanswered - why is it so important that none of the other, excessively similar cases, remain at status quo while the NFF are treated different?

Yes, it does, it tells you specifically that a model wielding 2 Special CCW's of the same type, a Special CCW and a pistol/basic ccw or 2 basic ccws get +1 attack in the assault phase. As I mentioned earlier, Deathcult Assassins don't have a blurb about +1 attack, Warror Acolytes armed with Laspitol/CCW don't, Inquistors armed with BP/CCW don't. Nothing does, because the BRB tells you they get that bonus. There is no need to mention it again.

Powerblades and Chainsabres are NOT paired weapons, they are not the same thing. They are a special piece of wargear, described as being multiple weapons, which give you the bonus attack due to there being no other way to ascertain two weapons are being used besides fluff, so they specifically give them the bonus in their rules to handle that.
The case for NFF is entirely different. You are given a pair of them via the wargear selection. It is clear that you now have 2 of them, meaning no added rule is needed.
The +1 attack in the entry is to indicate the speed at which GK's attack with them, not that you have two weapons.

For me, the mathematics show that NFF "should" net +2A to the bearer, sufficiently that I can ignore the semantics.

If the NFF net +2A, they give a comparable bonus (when considering the price premium) to the +2 Init of the Halberd or the 4++ invul in CC of the sword.

If they do not, then they are worse, and therefore not something that should ever be taken. This is how I'll play it until GW FAQ (where I think they will probably only go with 1 net attack based on how lightning claws work, etc), at which point they will become garbage again, unless your Terminators only ever fight Guardsman blob squads without power weapons.

ChrisCP wrote:As per the rules, all weapons are single handed unless otherwise stated. Nemesis Flachions lack this, they also lack anyhting indicating that this single wargear entry counts as two CCWS or that amodel wielding it counts as having an extra CCW.

Quite a simple case of following the rules really.

Yeah - except for the word 'pair'. Now, if it was a 'pear of falchions', you'd have an argument.

Bottom line: wait for the FAQ, and don't put them on models yet because they are either amazing, or crap - and we don't know which yet. In friendly games, play them the way they are written: +2 attacks for the PAIR. So basically, for now - play like you've got a pair.

As I see it, the only argument that can be made here is if the "pair" of NFF count as a single piece of wargear, or 2 pieces of wargear that can only be purchased as a set.

The entry for the NFF clearly lists that +1 attack as a special ability of the weapons. On that pgae, where Nemesis force weapons are defined, they are defined as having 3 characteristics:

-Force Weapons:...
-Daemonbane:...
-Further Abilities: The Various types of Nemesis force weapons have one or more other abilities, as listed on this page. These always apply in addition to the Force Weapon and Daemonbane abilities given above.

Now, as for this counting as 1 piece of wargear or 2, I feel that it's 1 piece of wargear that can only be purchased as a set. Where Nemesis Force Weapons are defined, the entry is for "Nemesis Falchions" not "A pair of Nemesis Falchions". It's just set in each unit entry so you can't purchase them individually, but only as a pair as that is their "fluff".

Until I see a rule or FAQ that says something along the lines of "a pair of something is NOT the same as having 2 of something" then I'll take the 2 terms to be identical, as that's the definition of a "pair". And there's plenty of examples where a single piece of wargear lists having a "pair" or something, meaning they have 2 of them.

i.e:
Black Templar Sword Brethren Terminator Assault Squads come with a "pair of lightning claws".

Kayvaan Shrike has a single piece of wargear called "The Raven's Talons" which are defined as a "pair of master-crafted lightning claws". Which is different than Boss Zagstruk who has 1 piece of wargear called "Da Vulcha's Klaws" which only counts as having 1 power klaw.

IMO, until the FAQ comes out and says otherwise, for a 5-10 points upgrade I'll see this as a total net gain of +2 attacks.

VoidAngel wrote:So basically, for now - play like you've got a pair.

As for a somewhat similair case, note the Blood Angel's Furioso and Death Company Dreadnoughts's entries. They can upgrade their Bloodfists for a 'pair of blood talons'. Nothing in the codex can buy just one of them. They also have a rule that only works for pairs.

Yet no one argued these are just a single close combat weapon?

I like how people for the "+2 attacks" also are whining about the 5 point cost of this bit of wargear.

A Single power weapon in C:SM is 15 points across the board. Two can be bought for 30 points.... If you wanted to do that. 30 points for a single extra power weapon attack.

But 5 points for a single extra Force weapon attack is overcosted? As I understand things, a force weapon is considered "superior" to a power weapon.

So the arguement for "+2 Attacks" based on the falchions cost (5 points?) being too high to only grant a single attack seems to fall significantly short.

helgrenze wrote:
A Single power weapon in C:SM is 15 points across the board. Two can be bought for 30 points.... If you wanted to do that. 30 points for a single extra power weapon attack.

Fraid not. Most things buying power weapons in C:SM already include a pistol.

helgrenze wrote:I like how people for the "+2 attacks" also are whining about the 5 point cost of this bit of wargear.

A Single power weapon in C:SM is 15 points across the board. Two can be bought for 30 points.... If you wanted to do that. 30 points for a single extra power weapon attack.

But 5 points for a single extra Force weapon attack is overcosted? As I understand things, a force weapon is considered "superior" to a power weapon.

So the arguement for "+2 Attacks" based on the falchions cost (5 points?) being too high to only grant a single attack seems to fall significantly short.

Not that I'm argueing that the 5 points are too expensive or cheap, but you're comparing apples with oranges here. As when you buy the power weapon for 15 points, you already have two close combat weapons. Buying a second power weapon here does absolutely nothing besides wasting points and losing the ability to shoot your pistol. Also, you're upgrading a non-power weapon to a power weapon. GKs are paying 5 points plus exchanging either +1 to their invulnerable save, +2 to their Initiative or a S8/10 thunder hammer, which is already factored into the base cost.

For the same reason thunder hammers are cheaper (or even free, depending on codex) for Assault Terminators that already come equiped with lightning claws, than for models that upgrade a chainsword to a thunder hammer.

2helgrenze moreover, they want double attacks for the most of the GK's for just 1/3 price (or even less) of the model itself, its ok for them... oh i wrong - its still OVERcosted to them...

helgrenze wrote:I like how people for the "+2 attacks" also are whining about the 5 point cost of this bit of wargear.

A Single power weapon in C:SM is 15 points across the board. Two can be bought for 30 points.... If you wanted to do that. 30 points for a single extra power weapon attack.

But 5 points for a single extra Force weapon attack is overcosted? As I understand things, a force weapon is considered "superior" to a power weapon.

So the arguement for "+2 Attacks" based on the falchions cost (5 points?) being too high to only grant a single attack seems to fall significantly short.

Tyranids have some options that make the models worse and yet still cost above and beyond the model cost.

Yes, that is the weakest assertion.

helgrenze wrote:So the arguement for "+2 Attacks" based on the falchions cost (5 points?) being too high to only grant a single attack seems to fall significantly short.

Other people have already done it, but go through and compare the performance of equal points' worth of Halberd Terminators, Sword Terminators, and Falchion Terminators.

Falchions need to be +2A in order to perform equivalently to the halberds or the swords at a price premium. If they net only +1A additional, they perform worse than swords or halberds for more points.

A Single power weapon in C:SM is 15 points across the board. Two can be bought for 30 points.... If you wanted to do that. 30 points for a single extra power weapon attack.

But 5 points for a single extra Force weapon attack is overcosted? As I understand things, a force weapon is considered "superior" to a power weapon.

A single power weapon for 15 points for a SM Sarge converts 3 non-power weapon attacks into 3 power weapon attacks.

The Nemesis Falchion converts 2 already-existing force weapon attacks into either 3 or 4 force weapon attacks, minus the special rule that the pre-existing force weapon (either halberd, sword, or daemonhammer) already gave the model. A single force weapon attack for +5 pts is not worth +2I or +1 Invul in most applicable cases (IG blobs without power weapons nonwithstanding).

It is said to be a pair of weapons. This means it gets an extra attack for being a pair of weapons.

The rules for this unique weapons states that a wielder of them gain an additional attack.

It is pretty easy to conclude, in terms of RAW, that this means they gain +2 attacks. It does seem to be a mistake though, or too ambiguous to leave it as it is. I'm sure an answer will be given soon.

It's not a matter of absolute cost, but relative cost that the argument is based on.

It's also not a matter of 'want', but a matter of 'how do we properly play with or against this'?