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penek wrote:2helgrenze moreover, they want double attacks for the most of the GK's for just 1/3 price (or even less) of the model itself, its ok for them... oh i wrong - its still OVERcosted to them...

for GKs, losing +1 Invuln save or +2I, or Thunderhammer, is worth paying a few points for +2A.

the Attacks are worth more points then the others, the cost of the 2 Falchions.


all other codexs are paying more then the cost of Falchions for power weapons because Gks have the cost of the Force weapon built into their base cost. a CSM champion or a Vanilla Sergeant doesn't.

all the GK is paying for is the +2A and 5-10 points is about right depending on the model.


a GKT with 2 base attack pays 25% of his base cost to gain +2A, but loses a point to his Invuln save.

a regular PAGK pays 50% of his base cost to gain +2A which is a 300% increase in his attack capability. he loses the ability to increase his I by 2 at the same time so it's a fair trade.

VoidAngel wrote:It's not a matter of absolute cost, but relative cost that the argument is based on.

It's also not a matter of 'want', but a matter of 'how do we properly play with or against this'?

Exactly.

If the NFF is indeed the weaker, +1A net, then we'll simply never see them (except maybe on PAGK Justicars) in favor of higher I or better invul.

helgrenze wrote:I like how people for the "+2 attacks" also are whining about the 5 point cost of this bit of wargear.

A Single power weapon in C:SM is 15 points across the board. Two can be bought for 30 points.... If you wanted to do that. 30 points for a single extra power weapon attack.

But 5 points for a single extra Force weapon attack is overcosted? As I understand things, a force weapon is considered "superior" to a power weapon.

So the arguement for "+2 Attacks" based on the falchions cost (5 points?) being too high to only grant a single attack seems to fall significantly short.

True but like said, that's upgrading 3 normal attacks to 3 power weapon attacks for the cost, which is a HUGE upgrade. Look at the cost difference between regular Chaos marines, and Khorne Berzerkers. For a mere 6 points more, you get +1A, Furious Charge, and Fearless. So yes, +5 points (on Elites, +10 on troops) is a bit pricey for just +1A.

How about comparing this case with the Tyranid one? The Biomorph page (page 31) has a list of a lot of stuff that's paired - "Tyranid creatures with scything talons count as having two close combat weapons and so receive +1 Attack" - and they need two sets to gain +2 Attacks.

A pair of Crushing Claws gives the model D6 extra attacks (plus any for bonus like charging, a pair of Scything Talons, but not for the pair of Crushing Claws), a model with a pair of Rending Claws only gains Rending, not an extra attack.

Just a case for comparison, as they clearly state when the model receives the bonus for two close combat weapons.

Destrado wrote:How about comparing this case with the Tyranid one? The Biomorph page (page 31) has a list of a lot of stuff that's paired - "Tyranid creatures with scything talons count as having two close combat weapons and so receive +1 Attack" - and they need two sets to gain +2 Attacks.

A pair of Crushing Claws gives the model D6 extra attacks (plus any for bonus like charging, a pair of Scything Talons, but not for the pair of Crushing Claws), a model with a pair of Rending Claws only gains Rending, not an extra attack.

Just a case for comparison, as they clearly state when the model receives the bonus for two close combat weapons.

Wrong Tyranid codex. . .and Tyranids are a bit weird regarding weapons anyway.

Destrado wrote:How about comparing this case with the Tyranid one? The Biomorph page (page 31) has a list of a lot of stuff that's paired - "Tyranid creatures with scything talons count as having two close combat weapons and so receive +1 Attack" - and they need two sets to gain +2 Attacks.

A pair of Crushing Claws gives the model D6 extra attacks (plus any for bonus like charging, a pair of Scything Talons, but not for the pair of Crushing Claws), a model with a pair of Rending Claws only gains Rending, not an extra attack.

Just a case for comparison, as they clearly state when the model receives the bonus for two close combat weapons.

First of all, you're using the wrong edition of Tyranid codex, they've been updated over a year ago. And secondly, they don't use the word pair anywhere in the old codex, so bit of a moot point.

Even if they only grant +1A, I still see myself taking them on purifiers when I take 2 psycannons per 5 men since they'll somewhat negate the loss of 4 power weapon attacks.

A 5 man squad of purifiers with two psycannons will still put out 9 power weapon attacks even if charged, 12 if they get the charge.

Can't grumble at that when you consider that on the move they can also put out 4 str7 rending shots and 8 stood still. And they obviously still get their normal attacks without power weapons from the two psycannon guys. I can't see myself taking the falchions with other types of GK squads though.

OH, snap!

Sorry about that. It's an army I didn't play, but I kept thinking about the scything talons... Didn't even notice I was using the 4th edition one.

Exit, stage left.

Grey Templar wrote:
a GKT with 2 base attack pays 25% of his base cost to gain +2A, but loses a point to his Invuln save.

a regular PAGK pays 50% of his base cost to gain +2A which is a 300% increase in his attack capability. he loses the ability to increase his I by 2 at the same time so it's a fair trade.

Hold it..... Let me get this straight... According to this a GK Terminator pays 25% (5 pts on Elites, Per kryhavok's post) of his base cost for the Falchions... so the GKT cost less than a normal Sm Terminator (40 pts)?
5 pts gets a standard SMT a chainfist.
While the PAGK pays 50% of base cost (10 pts on Troops, per kryhavok's post) making them the same cost as a Vanguard Vet (20 pts)?
Now... If I understand correctly... the PAGK starts with a NFW and can "upgrade" that for 10(?) pts to the Falchions..... Is this correct?

Ok, lets break it down correctly.

GKT's are 40 points, NFF are 5 points. Halberd, Sword, Hammer = free
GKP's are 24 points, get Halberds for 2 points, Hammer/NFF for 5 points (sword is free)
GKS's are 20 points, get Halberds for 5 points. NFF or Hammer for 10 points (sword is free).

Purifiers, Paladins and Terminators pay 5 points for them, and Strike Squads and Purgation Squads pay 10 points for them.

Honestly, I think that Falchions should give +2A total, and that Purifiers should pay 10 points for them (seriously, a Purifier with falchions costs less than a normal PAGK with falchions, and is considerably better. What the hell?).

There's a stark difference between what you many of you are saying and what is actually stated in the BRB or the GK Codex. If you have two of the same weapon, you get +1 attack. HOWEVER no where on ANY other weapon does it explicitly state in the description that the wielder gets +1 attack if dual wielding, it's merely implied from the BRB. Falchions explicitly state that the wielder receives +1 attack for using two, no longer implying the BRB rules. I believe that it isn't a simple miscommunication, you just receive the normal +1 for dual wielding. My two cents.

So, using the newest edition of the Tyranid codex, a Hive Tyrant that exchanges his lash whip and bonesword for an additional set of scything talons gets +1 attack since he has two sets of scything talons and each set is listed as a close combat weapon? As does the Tyranid Prime that exchanges his scything talons for a pair of boneswords? In addition to the upgraded CCW abilities or is this different?

Ok.. so the standard kit for GKs is a Stormbolter and Force weapon.... typically a sword.
There are, near as I can tell, 4 "upgrades", Hammer, Halberd (+2 Init), Warding Staff (2+ Inv sv) (According to the GW site), and Falchions (+1 or 2 attacks).

Also, it appears that they do NOT lose their Stormbolter for any of these upgrades.

Now since GKs do not get any additional attacks for any of the other weapons configurations, the main advantage of the Falchions is the additional attack listed in the weapon description.
Is this correct?
I am asking because I lack the ability to aquire the materials needed to fully understand this issue. (C:GK)

helgrenze wrote:Ok.. so the standard kit for GKs is a Stormbolter and Force weapon.... typically a sword.
There are, near as I can tell, 4 "upgrades", Hammer, Halberd (+2 Init), Warding Staff (2+ Inv sv) (According to the GW site), and Falchions (+1 or 2 attacks).

Also, it appears that they do NOT lose their Stormbolter for any of these upgrades.

Now since GKs do not get any additional attacks for any of the other weapons configurations, the main advantage of the Falchions is the additional attack listed in the weapon description.
Is this correct?
I am asking because I lack the ability to aquire the materials needed to fully understand this issue. (C:GK)

Mostly, yes. The first page of the armory decsribes Nemesis Force Weapons. These have 3 special rules:
Force Weapons, as described in the BRB, and rules on how it works with a squad of GK
Daemonbane, unsaved wounds force daemons and psykers to take a LD Test, if it's failed the model is removed with no saves, regardless if the force weapon was activated (bypasses Eternal Warrior)
Further Abilities: "The various Nemesis force weapons have 1 or more other abilites, as listed on this page. These always apply in addition to the Force Weapon and Daemonbane rules listed above."

It then lists the types of NFW:
Nemesis Sword, gives +1 to invulnerable saves in CC, if you have one
Nemesis Halbred, gives +2 I because of it's length, counts as 2 handed weapon
Nemesis Daemon Hammer, also counts as a TH as in BRB
Nemesis Flachions, grant +1 Attack
Nemesis Doomfists, also count as Dreadnought CC weapon (for Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights)
Nemesis Great Sword, Re-roll hits, wounds, and AP rolls (Dreadknight only)

In the armory section, each unit has an entry that comes standard with a NF Sword. It allows models then to purchase and replace their NF Sword with:
Daemon Hammer
Nemesis Force Halbred
a Pair of Nemesis Flachions
and 1 model per unit can replace the sword with the Warding Staff

The point costs vary depending on the squad, but yes no one replaces their SB for an upgraded NFW. Terminators/Palladins can replace their SB with a Incinerator, Psycannon, or Psilencer. Power armor GK's can replace both their NFW and SB for one (number of special guns vary on squad type).

Since the armory lists Flachions as a weapon with an extra ability of +1A, and we know they are single handed weapons (any weapon that isn't specifically 2h), and in the unit breakdown you purchase a pair of them...I read that as 1 piece of wargear that happens to be only purchasable as a pair (you don't buy 'Nemesis Force Flachions' as they are called in the armory, but specially a pair of them). And any model that wields 2 of the same special weapon is granted +1 attack for having 2 weapons. That ruling is different than the +1A conferred by the flachions' special ability.

alpha_construct wrote:So, using the newest edition of the Tyranid codex, a Hive Tyrant that exchanges his lash whip and bonesword for an additional set of scything talons gets +1 attack since he has two sets of scything talons and each set is listed as a close combat weapon? As does the Tyranid Prime that exchanges his scything talons for a pair of boneswords? In addition to the upgraded CCW abilities or is this different?

the Tyranid codex was all sorts of fail in its wargear section.

Tyranids, instead of getting a attack bonus for wielding multiple sets of weapons, just gain the other benift

it's really too complicated and will just make this discussion even more confusing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

helgrenze wrote:Ok.. so the standard kit for GKs is a Stormbolter and Force weapon.... typically a sword.
There are, near as I can tell, 4 "upgrades", Hammer, Halberd (+2 Init), Warding Staff (2+ Inv sv) (According to the GW site), and Falchions (+1 or 2 attacks).

Also, it appears that they do NOT lose their Stormbolter for any of these upgrades.

Now since GKs do not get any additional attacks for any of the other weapons configurations, the main advantage of the Falchions is the additional attack listed in the weapon description.
Is this correct?
I am asking because I lack the ability to aquire the materials needed to fully understand this issue. (C:GK)

thats correct.

GKs no longer have True Grit so the basic guys have only 1A each and the Falchions are the only way to gain additional attacks.

GKs lose their Stormbolter and NFW if they purchase one of the guns(Psylencer, Psycannon, or Incinerator)

alpha_construct wrote:So, using the newest edition of the Tyranid codex, a Hive Tyrant that exchanges his lash whip and bonesword for an additional set of scything talons gets +1 attack since he has two sets of scything talons and each set is listed as a close combat weapon? As does the Tyranid Prime that exchanges his scything talons for a pair of boneswords? In addition to the upgraded CCW abilities or is this different?

No, because the Tyranid codex specifically says 'Tyranid models never recieve the bonus Attacks from fighting with more than one close combat weapon - these bonusses are always included in the creature's profile'. As codex trumphs the base rules, you can never claim that bonus.

Redemption wrote:As codex trumphs the base rules, you can never claim that bonus.

Should be specific>general, but the point still stands.

kryhavok wrote:It then lists the types of NFW:
Nemesis Sword, gives +1 to invulnerable saves in CC, if you have one
Nemesis Halbred, gives +2 I because of it's length, counts as 2 handed weapon
Nemesis Daemon Hammer, also counts as a TH as in BRB
Nemesis Flachions, grant +1 Attack
Nemesis Doomfists, also count as Dreadnought CC weapon (for Dreadnoughts and Dreadknights)
Nemesis Great Sword, Re-roll hits, wounds, and AP rolls (Dreadknight only)

Not quite. Nemesis Force Falchions grant +1 attack if you have a pair. It's not +1 attack, it's +1 attack if you've got a pair. This is where the rules clash, 'cause the rules for 2xSCCW say you use the weapon's benefits and drawbacks and gain an additional attack.

Essentially, the problem is that the falchions essentially repeat the rules from BRB. Had a single falchion added +1 attack, then it wouldn't have been any doubt. In this case it's more guesswork - do they mean to clarify the rules in BRB or do they mean us to think one step further?

In previous codexes, we've been given rules for dual weapons which are purchased as dual weapons and haven't thought to add a +1 attack for 2xSCCW. Here we've got the added complication that GW give rules for a single weapon, which are rules for dual weapons, which can only be purchased dual. Since the rules for 2xSCCW assumes you've got a single weapon with rules for single weapon that's used dually... well... it's not cut and dry anywhere.

the book says the wielder of a pair of Nemisis Falchions has +1A.

it doesn't say that this is the same bonus for 2 CCWs. if it was, they wouldn't have said there was a +1A bonus because everyone knows about the 2 CCWs bonus.


therefore it must be seperate from the 2 CCW bonus.

Fetterkey wrote:+2 attacks by RAW and RAI. The fluff makes it clear that Nemesis falchions are faster than ordinary weapons, so it makes sense that you would be able to attack more often with them than you would with an ordinary pair of weapons.

This.

If the NFF is indeed the weaker, +1A net, then we'll simply never see them (except maybe on PAGK Justicars) in favor of higher I or better invul.

Seems that just like the worthless psilencer the falchions will never, ever be seen on the tabletop, especially in competitive play.

They might be worth taking for wound allocation purposes on smaller purifyer squads.
They are completely worthless on strike squads, who pays 30p for a space marine that goes down just as easy like a 15p space marine.
On terminators they are equally worthless, who wants to pay 5p for one measly attach when it means loosing the ++4 inv save in Cc.
On paladins we might see the occasional falchion due to wound allocation purposes.

Its sad that good looking things like falchions and psilencers are so crappy that no body will take them and thus they end up takeing so much sprue space that could have been used for more halbeards etc.

Well, it's darn good thing that Falchions, according to a very reasonable interpertation, give +2A.

If that is true they are worth taking and will add to the variation of GK armies.

But I have no illusions that the flachions must be nerfed it to +1A in any upcoming FAQ based on everything HQ wise that seemed fun in the test dex that has been nerfed to uselessness in the codex.

Grey Templar wrote:the book says the wielder of a pair of Nemisis Falchions has +1A.

it doesn't say that this is the same bonus for 2 CCWs. if it was, they wouldn't have said there was a +1A bonus because everyone knows about the 2 CCWs bonus.


therefore it must be seperate from the 2 CCW bonus.

^This

But it intrigues me that it can only be master-crafted once, for a single re-roll.

Its to save you from wasting points.

Shrike has 2 MC LCs, but only gets 1 reroll.

you only ever get one reroll for having a MC weapon, even if you have 2 of the same kind.

Also, not sure if it matters much or not, but the wargear sections lists a "Nemesis Falchion". That's right, there is a spot in the codex where a single falchion is mentioned. This definitely leads me to believe that a pair of falchions is indeed 2 CCWs. It's in an illustration on p.59 so it's not a rule per se, but it still gives evidence that a "pair of falchions" is indeed two nemesis falchions.

Oh, and for those suggesting that you can get +3A for using two falchions (whether it be for rhetorical purposes or intentional ones), you only select the profile of one weapon, so it's only possible to get +2A.

Unless it gets changed in an errata, this seems pretty cut and dry.

Fafnir wrote:Oh, and for those suggesting that you can get +3A for using two falchions (whether it be for rhetorical purposes or intentional ones), you only select the profile of one weapon, so it's only possible to get +2A.

Unless it gets changed in an errata, this seems pretty cut and dry.

Please back this up with a quote from the BRB. AFAIK you just made that up.

It seems cut and dry to me that its just +1A or +3A. I don't see any way to come up to +2A.