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Relapse wrote:
First off, you are not in liklihood going to burn. We are the children of an all loving God, and as a loving father, he will not huck you into flames for making mistakes or not worshiping him.
I go to church, have children that I don't abuse, but love more than life, nor do I lay guilt trips on people. My story is repeated in millions of church going homes.
The child abuse guilt trip thing you mention is also repeated in millions of athiest homes, and is not exclusive to people who purport to be good Christians.

The guilt for ones actions is pretty Catholic, but of course you are right that child abusers are not solely Christians, that would be absurd.

My point was that a good life without worship would not be rewarded, while a horrendous one with worship and repentance would be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Relapse wrote: you have to do these works out of love and concern or they mean nothing, either.

Meta Ethics? There goes all those that bought into Pascals wager then.

Relapse wrote:

dæl wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Then why in the name of any god which you may or may nit believe in doesn't he stop arsing around, pop his head out from the clouds, and say "Oh by the way, I do exist after all. I probably should have told you earlier. Sorry about that! Still, you came up with some very good theories, well done on using your heads."

Because we are his literal sons and daughters, put here to prove ourselves worthy of a divine inheritance. Everyone will have a chance to learn the truth of things in this life or the next and act according to their nature on what they learn. In this way everyone will prove to themselves where they belong, either in God's presence or out of it.

I live a good life and judge my decisions on a form of hedonic calculus, I promote happiness to as many as possible, and do not cause suffering. I will not worship anything I deem selfish and immoral. For this I will burn for eternity.

What I should have done was , join the Church, abuse children so they grow up and abuse other children, cause people to feel guilty for their actions, promote self interest of my institution and bow in reverence to a hope. For this I would gain salvation.

Hmmm... I think I'll be alright without religion, thanks anyway.

First off, you are not in liklihood going to burn. We are the children of an all loving God, and as a loving father, he will not huck you into flames for making mistakes or not worshiping him.
I go to church, have children that I don't abuse, but love more than life, nor do I lay guilt trips on people. My story is repeated in millions of church going homes.
The child abuse guilt trip thing you mention is also repeated in millions of athiest homes, and is not exclusive to people who purport to be good Christians.

Oh yes, the 2011 tsunami and just about every other natural disaster were such wonderful displays of love and kindness...

dæl wrote:

Relapse wrote:
First off, you are not in liklihood going to burn. We are the children of an all loving God, and as a loving father, he will not huck you into flames for making mistakes or not worshiping him.
I go to church, have children that I don't abuse, but love more than life, nor do I lay guilt trips on people. My story is repeated in millions of church going homes.
The child abuse guilt trip thing you mention is also repeated in millions of athiest homes, and is not exclusive to people who purport to be good Christians.

The guilt for ones actions is pretty Catholic, but of course you are right that child abusers are not solely Christians, that would be absurd.

My point was that a good life without worship would not be rewarded, while a horrendous one with worship and repentance would be.

And that doesn't just seem backwards to you? so your god is just so shallow he'd rather have people who worship him, then are good? So surely Hitler is up in heaven, because he worshiped, and I'm sure he repented before he died.

Squigsquasher wrote:
Oh yes, the 2011 tsunami and just about every other natural disaster were such wonderful displays of love and kindness...

sirlynchmob wrote:
And that doesn't just seem backwards to you? so your god is just so shallow he'd rather have people who worship him, then are good? So surely Hitler is up in heaven, because he worshiped, and I'm sure he repented before he died.

Common criticisms, of course -- "If God is so good and great, why doesn't he stop #{x} or help me out with #{y}.", but it's a not a valid criticism against my own beliefs(of course other posters, I can't speak for). That said, it's usually not a great idea, in the interest of communicating a point, to paint with such a broad brush.

Squigsquasher wrote:

Relapse wrote:

dæl wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Then why in the name of any god which you may or may nit believe in doesn't he stop arsing around, pop his head out from the clouds, and say "Oh by the way, I do exist after all. I probably should have told you earlier. Sorry about that! Still, you came up with some very good theories, well done on using your heads."

Because we are his literal sons and daughters, put here to prove ourselves worthy of a divine inheritance. Everyone will have a chance to learn the truth of things in this life or the next and act according to their nature on what they learn. In this way everyone will prove to themselves where they belong, either in God's presence or out of it.

I live a good life and judge my decisions on a form of hedonic calculus, I promote happiness to as many as possible, and do not cause suffering. I will not worship anything I deem selfish and immoral. For this I will burn for eternity.

What I should have done was , join the Church, abuse children so they grow up and abuse other children, cause people to feel guilty for their actions, promote self interest of my institution and bow in reverence to a hope. For this I would gain salvation.

Hmmm... I think I'll be alright without religion, thanks anyway.

First off, you are not in liklihood going to burn. We are the children of an all loving God, and as a loving father, he will not huck you into flames for making mistakes or not worshiping him.
I go to church, have children that I don't abuse, but love more than life, nor do I lay guilt trips on people. My story is repeated in millions of church going homes.
The child abuse guilt trip thing you mention is also repeated in millions of athiest homes, and is not exclusive to people who purport to be good Christians.

Oh yes, the 2011 tsunami and just about every other natural disaster were such wonderful displays of love and kindness...

We have been put here to be tested and to learn in order to become worthy inherators of that God has to give us. We all have different strengths and weaknesses that we need to learn to utilize or overcome. That is why these things happen. It's like the old saying about God where he declares that he never said it would be easy, but that it would be worth it.

Vaerros wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:
Oh yes, the 2011 tsunami and just about every other natural disaster were such wonderful displays of love and kindness...

sirlynchmob wrote:
And that doesn't just seem backwards to you? so your god is just so shallow he'd rather have people who worship him, then are good? So surely Hitler is up in heaven, because he worshiped, and I'm sure he repented before he died.

Common criticisms, of course -- "If God is so good and great, why doesn't he stop #{x} or help me out with #{y}.", but it's a not a valid criticism against my own beliefs(of course other posters, I can't speak for). That said, it's usually not a great idea, in the interest of communicating a point, to paint with such a broad brush.

Normally I refrain from all statements, but you must be new to this thread. Read through it, its all about all theists and all atheists. so if the hat fits, wear it. But you also didn't state that hitler did not end up in heaven.

Bollocks!

If god is so omnipotent and wanted worthy inheritors he should have just made us worthy in the first place and spared us a lot of bother. This god is clearly an illogical idiot who delights in complicating matters unnecessarily.

Also, I'm sure he could think of some tests that didn't involve millions of innocent people dying every year.

That or he's a spanker.

sirlynchmob wrote:

d-usa wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

d-usa wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

d-usa wrote:

(Edited away huge quote pyramid)

I didn't know all theists think the earth is flat and the earth is only 6000 years old? Unless by theists you mean fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians. Then yes, that particular group does think that and I don't agree with them just as many other theists (Christians and otherwise) don't agree with them.

Last time I read the Bible it was actually pretty silent on scientific data.

And last I checked fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians are still trying to get their bible taught in school, and ensure the theory of evolution does not get taught, and global warming as well

Fixed that for you.

Again, that particular group does not speak for all Christians and certainly does not speak for all theists.

You were the one who started by saying all theists accept science with an open mind, so if its all of you, then you can't back out now. aren't you a christian, and a theist? just like those fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians. So obviously you all believe the same thing. After all how could 1 god and 1 bible with 1 teacher be so contradictory?

Can you please provide me the quote where I said that, because I honestly don't remember saying that. My recollection is that I said that being a theist doesn't mean you don't believe in science and that your statement that theist = non-scientist is incorrect.

Some atheists already formed a church, so atheism must be a religion. How can one group that doesn't believe in a god be so contradictory? See, absolutes don't work.

here you go, from page 11:
"Atheists: Everything may be this way because of something we have studies, but we need more information, and we are open to new data and new hypothesis. God had nothing to do with it though.
Theists: Everything may be this way because of something we have studies, but we need more information, and we are open to new data and new hypothesis. God had something to do with it though. "

You claim all theists are open to new ideas and hypothesis, yet when its pointed out the many theists that don't you start backing away from those groups within your religion.
see, you're using absolutes. so just because some atheists make a church of atheism, that in no way imply's all atheists. As I am not a part of that religion I am neither a theist or an atheist. See how fun this gets

So you are going to ignore the examples I have given of where I readily admit that there are anti-science theists before I made a generalization? Gotcha.

Also, feel free to highlight where I said "all theists" in that post.

Edit: heck, after reviewing those posts I even prefaced the exchange you quoted with "other than the extreme who use science to repress thoughts". So if you are going to quote me at least be truthful.

sirlynchmob wrote:

dæl wrote:

Relapse wrote:
First off, you are not in liklihood going to burn. We are the children of an all loving God, and as a loving father, he will not huck you into flames for making mistakes or not worshiping him.
I go to church, have children that I don't abuse, but love more than life, nor do I lay guilt trips on people. My story is repeated in millions of church going homes.
The child abuse guilt trip thing you mention is also repeated in millions of athiest homes, and is not exclusive to people who purport to be good Christians.

The guilt for ones actions is pretty Catholic, but of course you are right that child abusers are not solely Christians, that would be absurd.

My point was that a good life without worship would not be rewarded, while a horrendous one with worship and repentance would be.

And that doesn't just seem backwards to you? so your god is just so shallow he'd rather have people who worship him, then are good? So surely Hitler is up in heaven, because he worshiped, and I'm sure he repented before he died.

I didn't say everyone was guaranteed a ticket to God's presence, but they most certainly won't burn in Hell in flames, either.
Consider this, God is all loving and all knowing. Why would an all loving and all knowing being create a race of intelligent beings when he knows some or most might fall short of his directions and punish those that fail with eternal torment in fire?

Why make them capable of falling short in the first place?

Squigsquasher wrote:Bollocks!

If god is so omnipotent and wanted worthy inheritors he should have just made us worthy in the first place and spared us a lot of bother. This god is clearly an illogical idiot who delights in complicating matters unnecessarily.

Also, I'm sure he could think of some tests that didn't involve millions of innocent people dying every year.

That or he's a spanker.

What adult that you ever knew that was spoon f ed and coddled all his life was worth anything when put out on his own in the big wide world?
The same applies with our relationship to God. He put us here to learn how to become as he is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Squigsquasher wrote:Why make them capable of falling short in the first place?

To learn right from wrong and how to act on it.

Squigsquasher wrote:Why make them capable of falling short in the first place?

It makes life more interesting.

Relapse wrote:I didn't say everyone was guaranteed a ticket to God's presence, but they most certainly won't burn in Hell in flames, either.
Consider this, God is all loving and all knowing. Why would an all loving and all knowing being create a race of intelligent beings when he knows some or most might fall short of his directions and punish those that fail with eternal torment in fire?

God is the ultimate Troll? And His Trolliness delights in schadenfreude.

Hordini wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Why make them capable of falling short in the first place?

It makes life more interesting.

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. So he does all this for his own twisted pleasure.

Disgusting.

Squigsquasher wrote:

Hordini wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Why make them capable of falling short in the first place?

It makes life more interesting.

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. So he does all this for his own twisted pleasure.

Disgusting.

No, that's not what I'm saying. It makes it more interesting for us. And didn't you read what Relapse wrote? What good would it do to be coddled?

Hordini wrote:What good would it do to be coddled?

It would be warm, and coddly, and there would be fewer tsunamis.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Vaerros wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:
Oh yes, the 2011 tsunami and just about every other natural disaster were such wonderful displays of love and kindness...

sirlynchmob wrote:
And that doesn't just seem backwards to you? so your god is just so shallow he'd rather have people who worship him, then are good? So surely Hitler is up in heaven, because he worshiped, and I'm sure he repented before he died.

Common criticisms, of course -- "If God is so good and great, why doesn't he stop #{x} or help me out with #{y}.", but it's a not a valid criticism against my own beliefs(of course other posters, I can't speak for). That said, it's usually not a great idea, in the interest of communicating a point, to paint with such a broad brush.

Normally I refrain from all statements, but you must be new to this thread. Read through it, its all about all theists and all atheists. so if the hat fits, wear it. But you also didn't state that hitler did not end up in heaven.

I don't have orthodox views on the concepts of heaven and hell, so I guess the hat doesn't fit(covering both points).

dæl wrote:

Relapse wrote:I didn't say everyone was guaranteed a ticket to God's presence, but they most certainly won't burn in Hell in flames, either.
Consider this, God is all loving and all knowing. Why would an all loving and all knowing being create a race of intelligent beings when he knows some or most might fall short of his directions and punish those that fail with eternal torment in fire?

God is the ultimate Troll? And His Trolliness delights in schadenfreude.

As I said earlier, we are put here to learn how to be worthy of God's inheratence. We aren't going to be like pampered pets in the next life, just sitting on a cloud somewhere. We have to learn compassion and wisdom in this life to handle the next.

dæl wrote:

Hordini wrote:What good would it do to be coddled?

It would be warm, and coddly, and there would be fewer tsunamis.

It doesn't sound like there'd be much need for growth and learning then, since everything would be peachy and there'd be no challenge or purpose to anything.

d-usa wrote:

So you are going to ignore the examples I have given of where I readily admit that there are anti-science theists before I made a generalization? Gotcha.

Also, feel free to highlight where I said "all theists" in that post.

The word theist implies all theists. You know theist:
Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

so you using the word theists implies all christians, muslims, indians, japanese, and anyone else who believes in a god or gods.

But you were generalizing, I fixed some of it for you, then you start specifying there are different groups of christians. Ifs funny, you thinks its fine to stereotype all atheists, yet get pissy when I start using all theists specifically christians. Bit hypocritical of you isn't it? and we know what jesus thinks of hypocrites.

If you christians would stop playing these word games and trying to redefine word to meet your agendas we could probably have a rational conversation on the matter.

sirlynchmob wrote:

d-usa wrote:

So you are going to ignore the examples I have given of where I readily admit that there are anti-science theists before I made a generalization? Gotcha.

Also, feel free to highlight where I said "all theists" in that post.

The word theist implies all theists. You know theist:
Belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in a personal God as creator and ruler of the world.

so you using the word theists implies all christians, muslims, indians, japanese, and anyone else who believes in a god or gods.

But you were generalizing, I fixed some of it for you, then you start specifying there are different groups of christians. Ifs funny, you thinks its fine to stereotype all atheists, yet get pissy when I start using all theists specifically christians. Bit hypocritical of you isn't it? and we know what jesus thinks of hypocrites.

If you christians would stop playing these word games and trying to redefine word to meet your agendas we could probably have a rational conversation on the matter.

I've forgotten, what does Jesus think of hypocrites again? Please provide the name of the book, and chapter and verse numbers in your citation.

Also, I'm pretty sure d-usa wasn't stereotyping all atheists. If you've got a post in this thread that proves otherwise though, by all means, quote it.

Hordini wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:

Hordini wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Why make them capable of falling short in the first place?

It makes life more interesting.

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. So he does all this for his own twisted pleasure.

Disgusting.

No, that's not what I'm saying. It makes it more interesting for us. And didn't you read what Relapse wrote? What good would it do to be coddled?

I was coddled, silver-spoon fed, and treated like a child-prince. Overall, I turned out to be a fine human being, maybe a bit arrogant and lazy, admittedly, but otherwise I have no real big sins...

And this doesn't take in account all the situations were evil befall human beings that are incapable of learning from the tragic events, like kids and stuff.

Why would God make viruses?

Hordini wrote:

dæl wrote:

Hordini wrote:What good would it do to be coddled?

It would be warm, and coddly, and there would be fewer tsunamis.

It doesn't sound like there'd be much need for growth and learning then, since everything would be peachy and there'd be no challenge or purpose to anything.

No, there would be more room for growth and learning, as we could concentrate on learning rather than worrying about god spilling another tsunami like a clumsy anime maid.

Hummm Giant clumsy anime maid in the sky...

Hordini wrote:

dæl wrote:

Hordini wrote:What good would it do to be coddled?

It would be warm, and coddly, and there would be fewer tsunamis.

It doesn't sound like there'd be much need for growth and learning then, since everything would be peachy and there'd be no challenge or purpose to anything.

There's definitly going to be purpose. That's why we are here now, in the same way a father interested in his children growing to be adults capable of making intelligent decisions and being strong, so it is with God's relationship with us. The hardships we suffer in this life make us understand and be more compassionate to the harships others endure, Ideally, we should be taking care of each other and raising each other up. We have been given free will to choose what we do, though, and it is on these desicians that we basically make our choice on whether to be in God's presence or out of it, although I will hasten to add, there won't be a fiery hell awaiting those who fall short.

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Hordini wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:

Hordini wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Why make them capable of falling short in the first place?

It makes life more interesting.

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. So he does all this for his own twisted pleasure.

Disgusting.

No, that's not what I'm saying. It makes it more interesting for us. And didn't you read what Relapse wrote? What good would it do to be coddled?

I was coddled, silver-spoon fed, and treated like a child-prince. Overall, I turned out to be a fine human being, maybe a bit arrogant and lazy, admittedly, but otherwise I have no real big sins...

And this doesn't take in account all the situations were evil befall human beings that are incapable of learning from the tragic events, like kids and stuff.

Why would God make viruses?

I guess he would make viruses to fill the role of a virus. Why would he make people who could become doctors and treat the sick? Why would he do anything? I'm not sure that "Why would God do this or that" is an argument that goes anywhere particularly useful.

@Kovnik

Were you entirely protected from every mischance that could befall you? Were you not allowed to do anything for yourself?

Hordini wrote:

Kovnik Obama wrote:

Hordini wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:

Hordini wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Why make them capable of falling short in the first place?

It makes life more interesting.

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. So he does all this for his own twisted pleasure.

Disgusting.

No, that's not what I'm saying. It makes it more interesting for us. And didn't you read what Relapse wrote? What good would it do to be coddled?

I was coddled, silver-spoon fed, and treated like a child-prince. Overall, I turned out to be a fine human being, maybe a bit arrogant and lazy, admittedly, but otherwise I have no real big sins...

And this doesn't take in account all the situations were evil befall human beings that are incapable of learning from the tragic events, like kids and stuff.

Why would God make viruses?

I guess he would make viruses to fill the role of a virus. Why would he make people who could become doctors and treat the sick? Why would he do anything? I'm not sure that "Why would God do this or that" is an argument that goes anywhere particularly useful.

Well then you refuse to use rationality when discussing God. Fine and all for you, but when people make a claim, other people try and work out the implications of the claim. Maybe you'd see how your position is precarious if you bothered to ask those questions?

@Relapse : No, of course not, but let's say at least that I have lived a VERY confortable life. But more importantly, I do not see how my worth, as a human being, is any more determined by the hardship I have lived through (and I have lived some pretty effed up stuff, just few moments in comparison).

In fact, I tthink it's quite the contrary. A person tend to lose hope when he lived through constant hardships/hardships he doesn't feel he has control over. The fact that I have had a very very good life prepared me better than quite a few 'rougher' people I have know, IMO. I never learned to accept those hardships as 'something okay' for starters.

This is turning into a really good discussion, but I have places to go and people to meet.
I'll try to get back to this thread as soon as I can.

@ Kovnik,

Why did God create viruses? Once again for us to learn by experience. As far as children being incapable of learning, we all learn something either in this life or the next.

Kovnik Obama wrote:Hummm Giant clumsy anime maid in the sky...

Yep. Makes him/her seem slightly more understandable.

This means that Satan is a well-meaning but unfortunate bandage girl moeblob.

Which sounds like a unit out of the Slaanesh section of Codex: Chaos Deamons if it was written by Matt Ward.