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Orlanth wrote:Would you like to link a psycho killers ideologies to these faith groups?

Sure, why wouldn't I? In fact, some of them would encourage that kind of analogy.

dæl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Just because you can accept science, would you mind telling your fellow theists that the earth is not flat, and the earth is over 6,000 years old?

Surely noone actually thought the world was flat, the ancient Greeks knew it was round (and even measured it) otherwise navigation at sea would have been impossible. We get told people thought that at school because it makes the whole Columbus thing a bit more romantic, but its pure BS.

The way I always understood the Columbus story was that the fight was not about flat earth vs. round earth. Everybody knew the Earth was round, they just didn't know how big it was. The establishment at the time thought the Earth was to big to reach the Indies from western Europe and Columbus thought it was smaller than it actually is. He was actually wrong (instead of being right which is the often cited flat/round version) and would have died long before reaching land if he wouldn't have happened to run into a continent nobody knew about.

But what do I know, I'm a dumb Christian

Ahtman wrote:

Orlanth wrote:Would you like to link a psycho killers ideologies to these faith groups?

Sure, why wouldn't I? In fact, some of them would encourage that kind of analogy.

Good point, well made.

This is why I love Bayonetta so much. At the end you get to punch God so hard she flies into the sun and explodes.

That and the main character is a sexy witch wearing nothing but glasses and her own hair. Which is awesome.

Kaldor wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

Kaldor wrote:
citation needed.
And that's another big 'ole citation needed.

I just gave you one, and told you where to find others.

Your a man of 'reason' and 'science'. Ok, show us you are. I told you where to look, see for yourself.

No, you don't get let off so easily.

Where are your citations? Such a common phenomena must be easily tested and verified, so where is your evidence? If no relevant studies have been made (remember, they need to be published in peer reviewed scientific journals) then where is your basis for your claim?

How many scientists have heard that same challange, only to be vindicated years, or even centuries later? I don't know of any reputable scientist who admits being privy to all the knowledge there is to be had.
Just because people didn't understand or see radio waves for thousands of years didn't mean they weren't there. I have faith that the same things are going to be true for a lot of religious beliefs, and it will be in the nature of something that's right in our face that we will finally be able to recognize as a whole people.

d-usa wrote:

dæl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Just because you can accept science, would you mind telling your fellow theists that the earth is not flat, and the earth is over 6,000 years old?

Surely noone actually thought the world was flat, the ancient Greeks knew it was round (and even measured it) otherwise navigation at sea would have been impossible. We get told people thought that at school because it makes the whole Columbus thing a bit more romantic, but its pure BS.

The way I always understood the Columbus story was that the fight was not about flat earth vs. round earth. Everybody knew the Earth was round, they just didn't know how big it was. The establishment at the time thought the Earth was to big to reach the Indies from western Europe and Columbus thought it was smaller than it actually is. He was actually wrong (instead of being right which is the often cited flat/round version) and would have died long before reaching land if he wouldn't have happened to run into a continent nobody knew about.

But what do I know, I'm a dumb Christian

No, you are absolutely right. Just gets taught in schools over here as flat/round argument, which is stupid.

btw I never claimed you were dumb, mildly illogical, but not dumb.

dæl wrote:

d-usa wrote:

dæl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Just because you can accept science, would you mind telling your fellow theists that the earth is not flat, and the earth is over 6,000 years old?

Surely noone actually thought the world was flat, the ancient Greeks knew it was round (and even measured it) otherwise navigation at sea would have been impossible. We get told people thought that at school because it makes the whole Columbus thing a bit more romantic, but its pure BS.

The way I always understood the Columbus story was that the fight was not about flat earth vs. round earth. Everybody knew the Earth was round, they just didn't know how big it was. The establishment at the time thought the Earth was to big to reach the Indies from western Europe and Columbus thought it was smaller than it actually is. He was actually wrong (instead of being right which is the often cited flat/round version) and would have died long before reaching land if he wouldn't have happened to run into a continent nobody knew about.

But what do I know, I'm a dumb Christian

No, you are absolutely right. Just gets taught in schools over here as flat/round argument, which is stupid.

btw I never claimed you were dumb, mildly illogical, but not dumb.

I think the majority of history taught at High Schools is crap. First thing you need to do when you go to a university is to hit the reset button on all the History you learned.

Relapse wrote:
How many scientists have heard that same challange, only to be vindicated years, or even centuries later? I don't know of any reputable scientist who admits being privy to all the knowledge there is to be had.
Just because people didn't understand or see radio waves for thousands of years didn't mean they weren't there. I have faith that the same things are going to be true for a lot of religious beliefs, and it will be in the nature of something that's right in our face that we will finally be able to recognize as a whole people.

Doesn't the proof of God invalidate faith though?

Douglas Adams sort of wrote:`I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'
`But,' says Man, `We now have proof.' It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'
`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly disappears in a puff of logic.

dæl wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Just because you can accept science, would you mind telling your fellow theists that the earth is not flat, and the earth is over 6,000 years old?

Surely noone actually thought the world was flat, the ancient Greeks knew it was round (and even measured it) otherwise navigation at sea would have been impossible. We get told people thought that at school because it makes the whole Columbus thing a bit more romantic, but its pure BS. If you watch a ship coming over the horizon the mast appears first.

google the flat earth society and see where they get that idea from

Eventually everyone will realize God exists, just like everyone knows about radio waves. Faith will be rewarded.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Faith preceeds the miracle.

I think the majority of history taught at High Schools is crap.

QTF.

And no, not that many people believed the world was flat. Ever, really. The Medieval Arabs also measured the Earths circumference and even the moons. They had to to start trying to calculate Earths orbit around the sun.

Then why in the name of any god which you may or may nit believe in doesn't he stop arsing around, pop his head out from the clouds, and say "Oh by the way, I do exist after all. I probably should have told you earlier. Sorry about that! Still, you came up with some very good theories, well done on using your heads."

d-usa wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

d-usa wrote:

(Edited away huge quote pyramid)

I didn't know all theists think the earth is flat and the earth is only 6000 years old? Unless by theists you mean fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians. Then yes, that particular group does think that and I don't agree with them just as many other theists (Christians and otherwise) don't agree with them.

Last time I read the Bible it was actually pretty silent on scientific data.

And last I checked fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians are still trying to get their bible taught in school, and ensure the theory of evolution does not get taught, and global warming as well

Fixed that for you.

Again, that particular group does not speak for all Christians and certainly does not speak for all theists.

You were the one who started by saying all theists accept science with an open mind, so if its all of you, then you can't back out now. aren't you a christian, and a theist? just like those fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians. So obviously you all believe the same thing. After all how could 1 god and 1 bible with 1 teacher be so contradictory?

sirlynchmob wrote:
google the flat earth society and see where they get that idea from

WTF. So the horizon is created by dark energy?

How can these people actually exist, that's the real question here.

Squigsquasher wrote:Then why in the name of any god which you may or may nit believe in doesn't he stop arsing around, pop his head out from the clouds, and say "Oh by the way, I do exist after all. I probably should have told you earlier. Sorry about that! Still, you came up with some very good theories, well done on using your heads."

Because we are his literal sons and daughters, put here to prove ourselves worthy of a divine inheritance. Everyone will have a chance to learn the truth of things in this life or the next and act according to their nature on what they learn. In this way everyone will prove to themselves where they belong, either in God's presence or out of it.

sirlynchmob wrote:

d-usa wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

d-usa wrote:

(Edited away huge quote pyramid)

I didn't know all theists think the earth is flat and the earth is only 6000 years old? Unless by theists you mean fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians. Then yes, that particular group does think that and I don't agree with them just as many other theists (Christians and otherwise) don't agree with them.

Last time I read the Bible it was actually pretty silent on scientific data.

And last I checked fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians are still trying to get their bible taught in school, and ensure the theory of evolution does not get taught, and global warming as well

Fixed that for you.

Again, that particular group does not speak for all Christians and certainly does not speak for all theists.

You were the one who started by saying all theists accept science with an open mind, so if its all of you, then you can't back out now. aren't you a christian, and a theist? just like those fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians. So obviously you all believe the same thing. After all how could 1 god and 1 bible with 1 teacher be so contradictory?

Can you please provide me the quote where I said that, because I honestly don't remember saying that. My recollection is that I said that being a theist doesn't mean you don't believe in science and that your statement that theist = non-scientist is incorrect.

Some atheists already formed a church, so atheism must be a religion. How can one group that doesn't believe in a god be so contradictory? See, absolutes don't work.

Relapse wrote:Because we are his literal sons and daughters

Her. Kali is female. We are her sons and daughters.

She is also blue, well endowed and has too many arms (as far as I know).

Maybe Hinduism is Slaaneshism in disguise.

Blue multi-armed chicks need love too

sirlynchmob wrote:

d-usa wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

d-usa wrote:

(Edited away huge quote pyramid)

I didn't know all theists think the earth is flat and the earth is only 6000 years old? Unless by theists you mean fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians. Then yes, that particular group does think that and I don't agree with them just as many other theists (Christians and otherwise) don't agree with them.

Last time I read the Bible it was actually pretty silent on scientific data.

And last I checked fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians are still trying to get their bible taught in school, and ensure the theory of evolution does not get taught, and global warming as well

Fixed that for you.

Again, that particular group does not speak for all Christians and certainly does not speak for all theists.

You were the one who started by saying all theists accept science with an open mind, so if its all of you, then you can't back out now. aren't you a christian, and a theist? just like those fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians. So obviously you all believe the same thing. After all how could 1 god and 1 bible with 1 teacher be so contradictory?

Because the true prophets were killed off when the last of the Apostles were martyred(except for John, who Jesus promised would be around to see the second coming). Even when the Apostles were around, they had to go around correcting those who were departing from the doctrines Jesus laid down. Check out the Acts and Letters section of the Bible to see what I mean.

Squigsquasher wrote:She is also blue, well endowed and has too many arms (as far as I know).

Kali is often described as black as well, and has just the right amount of arms.

LordofHats wrote:Blue multi-armed chicks need love too

Yep. I bet she gives great hugs.

Aww, now I'm getting warm fuzzy feelings...

Relapse wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Then why in the name of any god which you may or may nit believe in doesn't he stop arsing around, pop his head out from the clouds, and say "Oh by the way, I do exist after all. I probably should have told you earlier. Sorry about that! Still, you came up with some very good theories, well done on using your heads."

Because we are his literal sons and daughters, put here to prove ourselves worthy of a divine inheritance. Everyone will have a chance to learn the truth of things in this life or the next and act according to their nature on what they learn. In this way everyone will prove to themselves where they belong, either in God's presence or out of it.

I live a good life and judge my decisions on a form of hedonic calculus, I promote happiness to as many as possible, and do not cause suffering. I will not worship anything I deem selfish and immoral. For this I will burn for eternity.

What I should have done was , join the Church, abuse children so they grow up and abuse other children, cause people to feel guilty for their actions, promote self interest of my institution and bow in reverence to a hope. For this I would gain salvation.

Hmmm... I think I'll be alright without religion, thanks anyway.

d-usa wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
You were the one who started by saying all theists accept science with an open mind, so if its all of you, then you can't back out now. aren't you a christian, and a theist? just like those fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians. So obviously you all believe the same thing. After all how could 1 god and 1 bible with 1 teacher be so contradictory?

Can you please provide me the quote where I said that, because I honestly don't remember saying that. My recollection is that I said that being a theist doesn't mean you don't believe in science and that your statement that theist = non-scientist is incorrect.

Some atheists already formed a church, so atheism must be a religion. How can one group that doesn't believe in a god be so contradictory? See, absolutes don't work.

Decided to go back and try to find where I said what you claim I said, here is what I found:

Same as fundamentalist religious folks and science. Once some people make the choice to reject the concept of science, no evidence is ever enough to make them change their mind. There is no simple "here is the definitive proof that evolution exists", but there is plenty of pieces of evidence that together let you make a fairly informed decision that evolution is a valid theory.

I think fundamentalist Christians rejecting science are just as wrong as Atheists rejecting any notion of a God because science can "explain everything".

Which seems to be the exact opposite of what you claimed I said.

Really, other than the way religious groups have misused God to get their way and to oppress opposing thoughts there is only one major difference between atheists and theists:

Atheists: Everything is the way it is and it just happened by change.
Theists: Everything is the way it is and a deity had a hand in it.

Again, I make it clear that there are religious groups that have oppressed thoughts.

dæl wrote:

What I should have done was , join the Church, abuse children so they grow up and abuse other children, cause people to feel guilty for their actions, promote self interest of my institution and bow in reverence to a hope. For this I would gain salvation.

That's not a reasonable characterization of the average Christian life at all.

d-usa wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

d-usa wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

d-usa wrote:

(Edited away huge quote pyramid)

I didn't know all theists think the earth is flat and the earth is only 6000 years old? Unless by theists you mean fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians. Then yes, that particular group does think that and I don't agree with them just as many other theists (Christians and otherwise) don't agree with them.

Last time I read the Bible it was actually pretty silent on scientific data.

And last I checked fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians are still trying to get their bible taught in school, and ensure the theory of evolution does not get taught, and global warming as well

Fixed that for you.

Again, that particular group does not speak for all Christians and certainly does not speak for all theists.

You were the one who started by saying all theists accept science with an open mind, so if its all of you, then you can't back out now. aren't you a christian, and a theist? just like those fundamentalist young earth creationist Christians. So obviously you all believe the same thing. After all how could 1 god and 1 bible with 1 teacher be so contradictory?

Can you please provide me the quote where I said that, because I honestly don't remember saying that. My recollection is that I said that being a theist doesn't mean you don't believe in science and that your statement that theist = non-scientist is incorrect.

Some atheists already formed a church, so atheism must be a religion. How can one group that doesn't believe in a god be so contradictory? See, absolutes don't work.

here you go, from page 11:
"Atheists: Everything may be this way because of something we have studies, but we need more information, and we are open to new data and new hypothesis. God had nothing to do with it though.
Theists: Everything may be this way because of something we have studies, but we need more information, and we are open to new data and new hypothesis. God had something to do with it though. "

You claim all theists are open to new ideas and hypothesis, yet when its pointed out the many theists that don't you start backing away from those groups within your religion.
see, you're using absolutes. so just because some atheists make a church of atheism, that in no way imply's all atheists. As I am not a part of that religion I am neither a theist or an atheist. See how fun this gets

dæl wrote:

Relapse wrote:

Squigsquasher wrote:Then why in the name of any god which you may or may nit believe in doesn't he stop arsing around, pop his head out from the clouds, and say "Oh by the way, I do exist after all. I probably should have told you earlier. Sorry about that! Still, you came up with some very good theories, well done on using your heads."

Because we are his literal sons and daughters, put here to prove ourselves worthy of a divine inheritance. Everyone will have a chance to learn the truth of things in this life or the next and act according to their nature on what they learn. In this way everyone will prove to themselves where they belong, either in God's presence or out of it.

I live a good life and judge my decisions on a form of hedonic calculus, I promote happiness to as many as possible, and do not cause suffering. I will not worship anything I deem selfish and immoral. For this I will burn for eternity.

What I should have done was , join the Church, abuse children so they grow up and abuse other children, cause people to feel guilty for their actions, promote self interest of my institution and bow in reverence to a hope. For this I would gain salvation.

Hmmm... I think I'll be alright without religion, thanks anyway.

First off, you are not in liklihood going to burn. We are the children of an all loving God, and as a loving father, he will not huck you into flames for making mistakes or not worshiping him.
I go to church, have children that I don't abuse, but love more than life, nor do I lay guilt trips on people. My story is repeated in millions of church going homes.
The child abuse guilt trip thing you mention is also repeated in millions of athiest homes, and is not exclusive to people who purport to be good Christians.

dæl wrote:What I should have done was , join the Church, abuse children so they grow up and abuse other children, cause people to feel guilty for their actions, promote self interest of my institution and bow in reverence to a hope. For this I would gain salvation.

If this is really your understanding of Christian teachings, you have grossly misinterpreted and misunderstood them. The level of ignorance is almost criminal. I don't know how anyone could claim to cherish reason and logic, and then come to conclusions about a set of teachings that so completely disregards the primary text.

The whole flames thing is a huge misconception, by the way.

Vaerros wrote:

dæl wrote:

What I should have done was , join the Church, abuse children so they grow up and abuse other children, cause people to feel guilty for their actions, promote self interest of my institution and bow in reverence to a hope. For this I would gain salvation.

That's not a reasonable characterization of the average Christian life at all.

No its an extreme, but valid one on the fact that faith means more than actions or intentions. I refer you to the first 4 commandments, they concern worship, not behaviour.

As is said, faith without works is dead. You have to back up what you say you believe with good works. On the other han, you have to do these works out of love and concern or they mean nothing, either.