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2013/05/21 13:17:07
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Between this and the disappointing Angel Exterminatus, as well as the motivation-draining changes to Black Library policy, I think I may be finished with the Horus Heresy series once I've completed my own project which relies on its information.
This is VERY troubling news - especially as a highly vlaue your opinion on these things...
Troubling times!
Thanks man.
You tell that to Black Library though!
Actually, I emailed them about my discontent before and they never replied...
Alfndrate wrote:It was a very good review, and as to the point about the World Eater from the jungle...
//initiate Kanluwen Spoiler Spam//
Spoiler:
Delvarus wasn't "taught" a lesson by his more noble brothers because of his inherent ethnicity, which the author of the review seems to leave out, but it was because he left his assigned post to go and get glory on the battlefield for himself. Because of his actions, thousands, yes literally thousands, of the legion's serfs and crew members were killed because they were left defenseless. So they had to wake up the dreadnoughts which then means, now they have to explain to the dreads why they're fighting space marines... But Delvarus's homeworld ethnicity has nothing to do with his actual punishment, it was a far more bloody and brutal version of the Soap Party scene in Full Metal Jacket. It was members of Delvarus's legion teaching him the errors for abandoning his post. Glory for one at the cost of resources to the Legion is a punishable offense. With Angron being the way he is, I doubt the Primarch would have doled out punishment, and so it fell upon the individual leaders of pieces of the chapter to keep the Legion in line.
As to the idea of the World Eaters charging forth, I think that AD-B and many of the other Black Library authors tend tos how the resiliency and the strength the Legiones Astartes have to win a fight. While the Ultramarines on the planet didn't have much to fight for, they were defending their planet against attack, they were caught unawares (due to communications from Calth being down, no word from the Primarch, etc...) they didn't have anything worth fighting for. The reason why the World Eaters will push and push and push is because they are constantly fighting for release from the Nails. They are drug addicts pure and simple, they are trained killers seeking to finally reach the peace and Nirvana that the Nails promises them, which is why they break formation, which is why they lose more men than they should, and it's why they are able to win the impossible fights they do, because even when their legs are broken and their arms are maimed, the World Eaters need that release from the Nails bite. I think the only other legion that might know their pain are the Blood Angels during Fear to Tread, while many people didn't like the novel, I felt it was another good idea as to what the Angels would go to to win against impossible odds. They fought man, daemon, and sometimes Astartes (If you were the Flesh Tearer), and they nearly lost themselves, but they also fought the very nature that simmered beneath the surface waiting to explode to the surface and ruin a legion. And yet, a handful of the Legion pushed forward and made it to the Cathedral of the Mark to face the Daemons inside, the librarians fought against the edicts of the Imperium and they all nearly gave their lives to save their Primarch... I think that is what we as readers can come to take from many of these recent stories is that the Space Marines will push beyond their limits to achieve victory...
I'm sure I've rambled on long enough though
I agree with you about the racism idea; I didn't even notice it myself.
Spoiler:
On the idea of pushing beyond their limits, I did really like the description of the Astartes endurance; where men would usually tire from fighting etc., the Astartes still do but are able to push themselves further.
But I have to disagree regarding the Ultramarines having nothing to fight for. You said it yourself: "they were defending their planet against attack" - that's what they had to fight for, and it's a helluva lot more important than the Nails IMHO.
Even so, whilst the Astartes are incredibly strong, resilient and determined (as you said); this can only take them so far. There's no logical reason they could break that shield wall IMHO, no matter their abilities (which are shared on both sides). I couldn't see how the author justified Kharn's sudden ability to overcome the wall beyond becoming very angry(er).
AD-B was describing the peril the World Eaters were in: outmanoeuvred, stretched thin, unsupported, even buried; and yet, somehow, they overcame this and went on to slaughter all of Armantura?
Same as Kharn and Argel Tal destroying everyone in their path at Nuceria, or the inability of the Ultramarines fleet. I'm not usually bothered by the idea of plot armour, but I felt this novel was full of it, personally.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2013/05/21 13:31:48
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Cd was for sale at the HH weekender, MP3 available now, CD to follow.
Seems from what I've heard this explains the apparent timing issues from The Outcast Dead.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2013/05/21 14:21:09
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Cd was for sale at the HH weekender, MP3 available now, CD to follow.
Seems from what I've heard this explains the apparent timing issues from The Outcast Dead.
Interesting.
I'd like to hear the explanation - and for as big a cock up as it was, you'd think this would have been a good time to release a freebie out to all the HH fans who were scratching their heads over this one...
2013/05/21 14:30:20
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Alfndrate wrote: Is Outcast Dead worth the read? I think it's one of the only BL books I haven't read that's on my Kindle, and I am almost done with Mark of Calth...
Edit: Also what was the timing issues with the book?
Not really, in my - and most others it seems - opinion.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2013/05/21 14:38:30
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Alfndrate wrote: Is Outcast Dead worth the read? I think it's one of the only BL books I haven't read that's on my Kindle, and I am almost done with Mark of Calth...
Edit: Also what was the timing issues with the book?
Not really, in my - and most others it seems - opinion.
But then, you liked Betrayer and I didn't...
But most people I've talked to liked Betrayer Though I did like Fear to Tread whereas others didn't...
I guess I'm just not sure what it gives to the story now that I'm in very much in the different warzones, though most of the action seems to be taking place in the Ultramar area... I haven't read Angel Exterminatus yet though...
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
2013/05/21 14:45:24
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Alfndrate wrote: Is Outcast Dead worth the read? I think it's one of the only BL books I haven't read that's on my Kindle, and I am almost done with Mark of Calth...
Edit: Also what was the timing issues with the book?
Not really, in my - and most others it seems - opinion.
But then, you liked Betrayer and I didn't...
But most people I've talked to liked Betrayer Though I did like Fear to Tread whereas others didn't...
I guess I'm just not sure what it gives to the story now that I'm in very much in the different warzones, though most of the action seems to be taking place in the Ultramar area... I haven't read Angel Exterminatus yet though...
Honestly, I can only think of one point it added to the story and one important nugget of information it provided about the 40K Universe. I've only read it the once a while ago though.
Betrayer seems to be a mixed bag I think: it's only got 3 stars on the UK Amazon, but more on the US; whilst it's had the most criticisms of any ADB book I've seen, but then others like it.
Fear to Tread and even more so (IIRC) Outcast Dead were generally poorly received though, I found.
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2013/05/21 14:50:06
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Feth it lol, I bought it and I'll read it, I just wish that the book after Mark of Calth could come out so I can keep up with wtf is going on in this series...
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
2013/05/21 21:06:50
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
There's about 10 pages of interesting stuff in "The Outcast Dead." - You'll know what those pages are when you read them.
I'm still of mixed feelings about Betrayer. There are... problems with it, however the good parts in it are really good. Particularly the main 'point' of the story.
Spoiler:
The rise of Angron as the first True Daemon Prince
Is done really well.
2013/05/21 21:54:29
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
I liked Betrayer. I like the world eaters though, so could be biased. I think it's hard to give them characterization besides just being Angry marines all the time. The book gave some insight into Angron and Kharn, and their struggles with the nails.
My only problem, is between Istvaan III and 5, and the war on Armatura and the other stops during Betrayer, I don't see how there could be more than about 50 Worldeaters alive in the whole Legion by the end of the novel. Either they are a much larger than normal legion, or else they have some amazing way to replentish their losses.
2013/05/21 22:06:09
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Isn't part of the concept that, post heresy and especially after Skalathrax, there are relatively few of the 4 aligned legions left alive, hence why they are 'elites' type troops, unless they're following one of their personal leaders.
2013/05/30 11:51:53
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Around 13:00 makes mention of a Space Marines Battle Novel with Iron Snakes with his wife Nik, also involves characters from Titanicus....
which takes place on the same planet/time as the grand guignol in the current Gaunts' Ghost arc...
which would lead one to assume that this'll be about...
The Astartes distinguished themselves under their new commander also. Most notably, the Iron Snakes, cut off from supply on the world of Presarius, fought for 9 days without ammunition or support, successfully exterminating their mutant enemy. The action was thought so impressive that, upon their return to their staging area, Chapter Master Veegum of the Silver Guard ordered his own marines to bow to the Iron Snakes warriors.
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2013/05/30 12:08:59
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
2013/05/30 12:22:52
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Malcador reveals that the Crimson King's message actually arrived around two whole years ago, and it almost ripped the palace apart, but the psychic force was contained by the wards of the palace, while the Hollow Mountain psykers tried to cancel them out. Magnus's power proved too strong, however, and in the end they did not manage to make away with the force entirely before it eventually broke the wards. Malcador says that it could have been so much worse, if not for the wards and the psykers trying to contain it further.
So yes, Magnus's message WAS what freed the Outcast Dead, but the timing of the message would appear differently "from the outside".
.. I guess YMMV with regards to that.
for me..
Spoiler:
lines
space !
I'm not quite sure that "buffering" is a great excuse.. but it does make the actions of the Emperor more understandable with regards to the Wolves and Prospero. and how Horus could still ..... persuade.. Russ that magnus couldn't be saved and would be best.. removed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/30 12:23:07
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2013/05/30 12:25:12
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
BrookM wrote: Uh-huh, still a clusterfeth in my eyes.
Yep, sounds like they wrote Outcast Dead, realized their mistake after printing it and someone just said 'slap an audiobook in there that fixes this'.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2013/05/30 12:52:20
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Makes me wonder what's going on during those meetings. I kinda imagine half of it is wrestling who gets which legion and the other half is pitching cool gak while forgetting about the time line.
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
2013/05/30 13:06:21
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Somehow I imagine they spend a significant amount of time arguing about which primarch could beat up which other primarch.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
2013/05/30 13:08:25
Subject: Re:Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
reds8n wrote: C& P'ed from warseer, thanks to Mr. dark Chaplain
Spoiler:
spaces
spaces
Malcador reveals that the Crimson King's message actually arrived around two whole years ago, and it almost ripped the palace apart, but the psychic force was contained by the wards of the palace, while the Hollow Mountain psykers tried to cancel them out. Magnus's power proved too strong, however, and in the end they did not manage to make away with the force entirely before it eventually broke the wards. Malcador says that it could have been so much worse, if not for the wards and the psykers trying to contain it further.
So yes, Magnus's message WAS what freed the Outcast Dead, but the timing of the message would appear differently "from the outside".
.. I guess YMMV with regards to that.
Indeed. This does seem a rather poor attempt at correcting/explaining it.
Spoiler:
So the Emperor had a warning a whole 2 years prior to the Heresy and thought nothing of it all
Kind of makes it worse if you ask me, but I guess I will need to listen to it properly first.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/05/30 13:12:44
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2013/05/30 13:11:10
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Sorry, could someone explain this to me more ... slowly? What exactly is the problem? From what I'm reading here ...
Spoiler:
... Outcast Dead had Magnus alerting the Emperor two years before ... what? Istvaan III? The Siege of Terra? And Wolf Hunt explains this by saying no one bothered to "receive" the message because they were too busy making sure it didn't destroy the palace? Like, the psychic force of Magnus's message was so intense that damage control lasted for two years?
Because if I understand all of that correctly, that seems fething awesome to me. One of the problems I've had with the HH series is its rather puny scale. So the idea that two years was spent this way, that makes sense to me. Seems suitably mythological.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/05/30 14:24:55
HH Series:
Drop site massacre happens, Garo escapes and tells the IM that "oh no, marine fighting marine"
The Emp sends the Space Wolves to bring the 1k Sons back in line
IM deals with the news that some legions are now traitors
Outcast Dead: Messes up the time line
The IM seems to already know that some legions have gone traitor, but from where we are reading on the Outcast Dead, the drop site massacre hasn't happened yet.
If you take the timeline in Outcast Dead, months if not years before the Drop site massacre, the IM knows wht Horus is up to. Kind of a big mistake, no?
2013/05/30 15:17:29
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
Yeah, that's more or less the point of Outcast Dead. You have this monumental bit of information, do you share it with those that matter or do you keep it away from everybody else and just let things unfold without tampering with the outcome.
It's becoming more and more of a clusterfeth if you ask me IMHO..
Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Fiat justitia ruat caelum
2013/05/30 15:48:03
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
BrookM wrote: Yeah, that's more or less the point of Outcast Dead. You have this monumental bit of information, do you share it with those that matter or do you keep it away from everybody else and just let things unfold without tampering with the outcome.
It's becoming more and more of a clusterfeth if you ask me IMHO..
I'm in agreement I think as well.
Just trying to get my head around this ...
Spoiler:
So the Emperor actually receives the message 2 years prior to the outbreak of the Heresy, as he has the talk with flamey Angel Magnus in A Thousand Sons and he sits on this information. After the message has been received though he sends Russ to shut up Magnus, not warning him of the actual contents of the message. Then the feedback (?) from the message is received by everyone else on Terra, which just happens to be after Istvaan, rendering it now useless.
It could be like Manchu says.
So does that mean that the time between Horus fall on Davin and the Istvaan Massacre was 2 years or roundabout?
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2013/05/30 16:05:37
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
So the Emperor actually receives the message 2 years prior to the outbreak of the Heresy, as he has the talk with flamey Angel Magnus in A Thousand Sons and he sits on this information. After the message has been received though he sends Russ to shut up Magnus, not warning him of the actual contents of the message. Then the feedback (?) from the message is received by everyone else on Terra, which just happens to be after Istvaan, rendering it now useless.
It could be like Manchu says.
So does that mean that the time between Horus fall on Davin and the Istvaan Massacre was 2 years or roundabout?
God I almost feel like I shouldn't even read Outcast dead .
There are Mark of Calth spoilers below, be warned:
Spoiler:
The issue that you all have to remember is that the warp doesn't operate on the same linnear timeline that we do, this is prevelant with the birth of Slaanesh in the 30th millenium, and why Slaanesh exists in WHFB. This is also prevalent in Mark of Calth in the final story, where Trooper Persson cuts his way through the warp, winding up at one of the first battles of the Great Crusade, a WW2 scene, and an even more ancient battle. So it could be that the time between Davin and Istvaan isn't that long, but it could be that the force needed to shoot his message across the warp caused it to "go back in time" if you will. It still seems stupid that nothing was done 2 years prior :-\
DR:80+S++G+M+B+I+Pwmhd11#++D++A++++/sWD-R++++T(S)DM+ Ask me about Brushfire or Endless: Fantasy Tactics
2013/05/30 17:29:44
Subject: Black Library News & Rumours Thread IV, in obligatory unwanted 3-D!
BrookM wrote:Uh-huh, still a clusterfeth in my eyes.
Yup
Alpharius wrote:The phrase "Band-aid on a bullet wound" comes to mind...
Or, Lame Excuse is Lame!
And this!
Really, I wish they had just let it lie.. it was amazing how many people hadn't noticed the (in my eyes, rather amusing) mistake in The Outcast Dead, and trying to explain it just makes it worse by drawing attention to it.
Though I did like Fear to Tread whereas others didn't...
